afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[Bronk]

Is that so? I haven't seen a dragon there, or an ixitxachitl, or a kraken. Hell, I don't think I've even seen a giant there. You're not going to tell me that giants and dragons are unfamiliar or lack the magical capacity to travel the Planes.

Interesting... how big are the portals into Sigil anyway? It could be a deterrent if most of them are human sized.

And yet you do. It's almost like there's some sort of set of planar principles that reinforce observer bias

The second principle is the Unity of Rings, and notes that many things on the planes are circular, coming back around to where they started.

The third principle is the Center of All, and states that there is a center of everything — or, rather, wherever a person happens to be is the center of the multiverse... from their own perspective, at least.

I think in a previous thread you mentioned this before, with respect to planar travelers visiting the divine realms of their own gods. If there gods were represented in multiple faiths in different crystal spheres, when they arrived they would see or be shown the areas that corresponded to their particular faith. Or something like that.

Is there something similar going on for the rest of the planes too? By that I mean, there's only one spire... or is there? Is there more than one set of Gate Towns too? If I understand right, the Outlands are infinite, but you can walk from gate town to gate town in a number of days, while going beyond them gets all jumbled up in the hinterlands. Could there be another set of gate towns beyond the area the hinterlands try to keep people away from? Or some kind of magical dimensional overlay where people can't see or interact with each other even if they share the same space?

[afroakuma]

Heh I wasn’t really thinking about it in ‘everything is possible’ sense. More like... if I have two sets of planar travelers from the Prime... a finite set of humans, and an infinite set of (anything else that could possibly travel to Sigil in all of the Primes); then the finite set compared to the infinite is essentially indistinguishable from 0.

Sure, but the assumption you're making is that the finite set possess characteristic A, therefore the infinite possess characteristic A. Even within the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of local space, there are countless races that don't appear on the Planes particularly often, if at all, that we have observed.

That the nature of the planes themselves conspire to keep things focused (from my perspective) on me

Technically it's the nature of you that does it, since the Planes are places of belief and belief is subjective.

I guess I still don’t grasp why every Prime inhabitant seen in such a natural planar hub like Sigil seems to just happen to come from the insignificant finite speck of the Prime called the Arcane Flow

Well, again, they don't - you just tend to have observed ones that do because you're predisposed to have observed ones that do.
What this means is that the NPCs you read about encountering in Sigil are called out as being from places you know, because those are places you know. There are plenty of Primes bopping around Sigil who come from the other quadrants of the Arcane Outer Flow region, or still further beyond.

(unless we presume that the Arcane Flow is in some way ‘more important’ than the rest of the infinite Prime in some real, objective sense)

I mean, it arguably is, since the sphere widely believed to be the origin of non-aboleth life on the Prime (they may have originally cropped up in there as well) is at the center of the Trulian Ring at the heart of the Arcane Outer Flow region. Life has managed to spread pretty far since then, but it makes a pretty convincing case for significance in the face of infinity.

If you jump off the edge, aren't you really just jumping into open air near the Spire of the Outlands? I had thought that it just meant you would fall off because no magical abilities work that close to the Spire, at least outside of Sigil.

Nope; while Sigil is visible from the Outlands, the Outlands are not visible from Sigil. Or reachable from Sigil.

Interesting... how big are the portals into Sigil anyway? It could be a deterrent if most of them are human sized.

They vary, though most are likely humanoid-sized. The Lady wills her portals to exist and they do so according to her whims.

Is there something similar going on for the rest of the planes too? By that I mean, there's only one spire... or is there?

There is.

Is there more than one set of Gate Towns too?

In the manner you're asking, no, just the one. That's not to say by any stretch that they are the only "set" of portals to exist even on the Outlands. Going back to the Maztican example, Maztlan appears as a vast ziggurat whose staircases descend to "terraces" or "tenemos" which are aligned realms on the Outer Planes.

If I understand right, the Outlands are infinite, but you can walk from gate town to gate town in a number of days, while going beyond them gets all jumbled up in the hinterlands. Could there be another set of gate towns beyond the area the hinterlands try to keep people away from?

Unlikely.

Or some kind of magical dimensional overlay where people can't see or interact with each other even if they share the same space?

I mean, that kind of thing does exist in D&D, but the Outer Planes have little need for it - no matter how finite a landmark such as the Spire might seem, it's circumferentially infinite - I can walk "around" it and never ever reach my original location. It also obeys the weird laws of movement on that plane, such that I could also walk "around" it and get back to where I started without ever running into you, even if you were somewhere on the way.

[enderlord99]

Which plane (and, if applicable, layer) does that joke that ends "Tea-break's over, back on your heads!" fit in most closely with?

I'm guessing Minauros.

[Naanomi]

I mean, it arguably is, since the sphere widely believed to be the origin of non-aboleth life on the Prime (they may have originally cropped up in there as well) is at the center of the Trulian Ring at the heart of the Arcane Outer Flow region. Life has managed to spread pretty far since then, but it makes a pretty convincing case for significance in the face of infinity.

See that makes me feel better... and like I can remove a lot of ‘infinities’ from my mental math. Perhaps, because life had a single definable origin on the Prime, that most of the Prime is functionally uninhabited (albeit probably spread ‘nonlinearly’ by various Divine action and other Planar hijinks)

[gkathellar]

Is the Prime even known to be infinite? I was under the impression that it was not.

[Naanomi]

Is the Prime even known to be infinite? I was under the impression that it was not.

3.5 Manual of the Planes, Pg 41: “Infinite Size”

[unseenmage]

Can one purchase chocolate in Sigil?

[afroakuma]

Can one purchase chocolate in Sigil?

I don't see why not.

[Naanomi]

We’ve talked before on these threads that ‘high-tech/sci-fi’ places do exist out there in ththe Great Wheel; and explored why we expect them to be rare...

Given that, if I were a more standard ‘fantasy type person’ in the Planes looking to buy some high-tech gear, where would be the best places to go shopping (apart from a super-tech Prime world or alternate Cosmology)?

[JoeyTheNeko]

how believable is the idea that the lady pain is the incarnation of the multiverse itself and thus acts as she does because it's to keep reality running the way it's supposed to? she's just an avatar of the entire multiverse's own will to survive etc.

[enderlord99]

Someone dies and is forced to choose between two places (on the same planar layer) to remain for all eternity. The first is a relatively generic torture room; the second is a bunch of people standing knee-deep in something disgusting, drinking tea. The latter is chosen, and the entity that presented the options say "Alright, everyone! Tea break's over, back on your heads!"

Where does this most likely take place?

[Naanomi]

Where does this most likely take place?

Since ‘ironic and slightly humerous punishments’ doesn’t fit any established layer particularly... I’d guess it is either the Divine Realm or some power or another; or a Abyssal layer of a mercurial Demon Prince of some type

[afroakuma]

We’ve talked before on these threads that ‘high-tech/sci-fi’ places do exist out there in ththe Great Wheel; and explored why we expect them to be rare...

Given that, if I were a more standard ‘fantasy type person’ in the Planes looking to buy some high-tech gear, where would be the best places to go shopping (apart from a super-tech Prime world or alternate Cosmology)?

I really don't know what you expect me to answer with. Fine, whatever... maybe a city inside the divine realm of a deity of such a super-tech Prime world. Is that an acceptable loophole?

how believable is the idea that the lady pain is the incarnation of the multiverse itself and thus acts as she does because it's to keep reality running the way it's supposed to? she's just an avatar of the entire multiverse's own will to survive etc.

I'm not on board with it, but she's the Lady, think what you like.

[rigsmal]

Does Gothic Earth (Masque of the Red Death) exist in Spelljammer space in a crystal sphere or is its astronomy more or less the same as real life, as an alternate material plane with its own cosmology?

[afroakuma]

Does Gothic Earth (Masque of the Red Death) exist in Spelljammer space in a crystal sphere or is its astronomy more or less the same as real life, as an alternate material plane with its own cosmology?

Hasn't this been asked already? In this thread? By you?

[rigsmal]

Hasn't this been asked already? In this thread? By you?

Oh, I could swear I asked it but for some reason couldn't find it by search I just realized there's a thread search tool. I was literally going over my past posts in my profile. Never mind me!

[Naanomi]

I really don't know what you expect me to answer with. Fine, whatever... maybe a city inside the divine realm of a deity of such a super-tech Prime world. Is that an acceptable loophole?

Sorry I meant more like... could I expect to (with enough looking and luck) expect to see a laser rifle show up for sale in Sigil, or a well used spaceship come up for auction at the Marketplace Eternal, or track someone down to repair a suit of power-armor in the City of Brass?

[enderlord99]

Did you see my post about "boot camp" in Random Banter? Levistus should have to go through something vaguely like that (and Asmodeus is surely capable of it) but instead he's just... an ice cube.

Yet, for some ****ing reason, he COMPLAINS about it!

Yes, I know I've brought this up before.

[afroakuma]

Sorry I meant more like... could I expect to (with enough looking and luck) expect to see a laser rifle show up for sale in Sigil, or a well used spaceship come up for auction at the Marketplace Eternal, or track someone down to repair a suit of power-armor in the City of Brass?

I mean, it's Planescape, infinite diversity, so you and I both know that I can't say "no" in any absolute sense. Doesn't mean it's the kind of thing you can reasonably expect to pull out of your hat with a Gather Information check, though. Just because there could be doesn't mean that there will be.

Except for that third thing, I don't see why you'd expect to find a repairman in a place that melts all the things.

[Naanomi]

Except for that third thing, I don't see why you'd expect to find a repairman in a place that melts all the things.

I was just trying to rattle off some of the ‘big marketplaces of the multiverse’.

Anyways, it is an interesting idea; sort of pairs with what we were just talking about: the nature of the universe in some ways conspires to keep you running into things that you are familiar with. There could be a whole active sci-fi element of the universe that ‘centralized bigwigs’ like Demogorgon and Primus are in some ways aware of but people on their fantasy-Primes just never experience... maybe some of those unlabeled Abyssal levels are led by a killer AI; or themed into cybernetic bodyhorror.

The ship at Barrier Peaks represents a rare breakdown of such a parsing system, unsurpringly on the Prime (where such things like personal perspective, beliefs, and expectations would seem to have less sway)

[afroakuma]

Yeah, sorry, you've just basically hit on something I'm totally disengaged on. I like the occasional oddball Barrier Peaks thing, but that's basically it.

[Jowgen]

Lets say Asmodeus is plotting something (crazy, I know, but bear with me) and said plot nessicates the sacrifice (literal and/or metaphorical) one or more of the other Lords of the Nine (as if they were expendable pawns, almost).

How do you think big A would rank the other Lords in terms of expendability?

[afroakuma]

How do you think big A would rank the other Lords in terms of expendability?

Let me answer your question in song.

More complete answer to follow tomorrow.

[Tzardok]

Let me answer your question in song.

More complete answer to follow tomorrow.

Huh? What do Bells have to do with... :snort: bwaaahahahahaha!

[gkathellar]

Let me answer your question in song.

More complete answer to follow tomorrow.

See this is why people believe you when you say you're chaotic evil.

[Eldan]

Damn, that took me a long time. I'd be tempted to nominate Levistus next, but for some reason, Big A kept him around as a popsicle, so there's some reason not to kill him. (Maybe the reason is this sacrifice.)

[enderlord99]

Let me answer your question in song.

More complete answer to follow tomorrow.

Just so you know, "next video" suggestions change.

[gkathellar]

Damn, that took me a long time. I'd be tempted to nominate Levistus next, but for some reason, Big A kept him around as a popsicle, so there's some reason not to kill him. (Maybe the reason is this sacrifice.)

I'd always assumed that death was simply too good for Levistus, especially considering that Big A has other family and needed to set a precedent.

[Jowgen]

More complete answer to follow tomorrow.

Well now I'm just real excited.

Since I'm at it, totally unrelated question:

Are there any particular groups of people; be they followers of a particular deity or members of a faction or whatever; who would fit the image of a stereotypical missionary? You know, the kind who goes around bothering random people in attempts to actively convert them (or in their mind "save their souls") using stuff rannging from the classic "do you have a moment to talk about our lord and saviour XXX" to the more extreme "END IS NIGH, CONVERT NOW OR BURN FOREVER!".

Or is there a reason these kinda folks don't really exist, despite the clear tangibleness of the divine and the numerous incentives to convert people?

[Tzardok]

The Athar do. For a nominally godless group they can get quite proselyting.