afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[afroakuma]

Is it then an intrinsically evil act to create a golem, because you have to enslave a sentient being to do so?

It's really hard to say - if you review the process of making a golem, for instance, none of the conventional four use any method whatsoever of bringing forth an elemental and only one invokes contact with another plane in the spells required. Whatever is being harnessed to provide motility and direction to a golem, and in whatever fashion, the specific nature of it is ill understood save that it is in some way related to the Elemental Plane of Earth.

The animating force of the golem is an elemental spirit from the elemental plane of Earth. Since the spirit is not a natural part of the body, it is not affected by most spells or even by most weapons (see individual descriptions). The process of creating the golem binds the unwilling spirit to the artificial body, and enslaves it to the will of the golem’s creator. The nature of this spirit is unknown, and has so far eluded the grasp of all researchers. What is known is that it is hostile to all Prime Material plane life forms, especially toward the spell caster that bound it to the golem.

It's possible that the first golems were created as part of a deceptive plan by some malign elemental force to bring elemental spirits to the Prime Material Plane by unconventional means. While the actual methodology is now de rigeur for advanced spellcasters, there may be fundamental parts of the process that are essentially a black box.

How were Elder Eidolons powered?

The elemental forces that power an elder eidolon...

What outsiders procreate in the "normal" biological way?

Depends which sources you consult. The bad book and the other bad book would tell you that yugoloths, eladrins, and guardinals procreate. They're both bad books, of course, and we don't listen to them.

But what about Genies?

I'm given to understand that genies procreate in the normal way.

Some outsiders, such as Sladdi, obviously have unusual means of procreation spelled out in their entries.

Arguably that's less about procreation and more about the compacted roiling chaos of a slaad finding a new corporeal form whose rules it can chew on until all that's left is slaad.

But what about the myriad other beings? Mercanes, Angels, Barghests, Genies, Howlers, Night Hags, Titans, etc? Should it be assumed they procreate in a normal, biological way?

Angels I expect do not; while they may be capable of doing so, entities such as solars are made to do the work of deities, and other angels exist for purposes and objectives. Night hags mate with fiends to produce more night hags - I feel I read somewhere that they are also capable of reproducing with mortals, as ordinary hags do. Generally, I would expect that non-exemplar outsiders procreate in a biological fashion.

Can you see any deeper logic behind the name of Pandemonium's layers? I mean, my theory is that they just stuck on random hellish-sounding words, but one can hope. I'm mainly wondering why a dark, windswept cavern is called "Phlegeton", which means "the flaming" and is one of the rivers of the underworld. Or why Agathion, which Wiki tells me is the Greek name for a witch's familiar. I do get Cocytus.

Well I mean I can offer conjecture if it's desired.

• Pandesmos is likely just a distillate of the plane's own hateful moniker, but it may also mean, loosely, "the bondage/confinement of all" suggesting a place without hope of deliverance. Absolute futility.

• Phlegethon could be named for a number of reasons - as a dark, damp, cold, windblasted realm of empty horrors, the name may be a deliberate irony - it's in fact the exact opposite of a river of fire. Alternately, it may have to do with the Dantean interpretation of a river in which souls are boiled - certainly the torment of the soul in Phlegethon is searing and boils away sanity and hope. It might be most reasonable, though, to consider it a reference not to the fiery nature of the river, but rather to its description as "coiling" around the world, for the dreadful and twisting grottoes caverns are surely that.

• Agathion, following from the notion of ironic names, literally means "the goodly/kind one" or "the benign one", perhaps the ultimate in cynicism for a place where the caverns are so lost they can not find even one another, and where the winds can shatter the walls of an insular pocket and rip the poor souls within out of existence with killing force.

Bunch o' questions about gods and godhood for you, Afro.

Oh hey Dice! Good to see you again.

0) Is there an official collective term for demon princes, archdevils, archomentals, and similar very powerful unique elementals and outsiders with special power over certain planar regions? (I'll just call them "planar lords" in further questions for brevity.)

On Hallowed Ground helpfully clustered them as "near-powers" but not really, no.

1) Is the thing where planar lords can grant spells to their followers, but can't actually do so themselves and have to channel power from another god (e.g. Yeenoghu channeling power from Erythnul and Erythnul getting Yeenoghu's worship in return), a Planescape thing or something the 3e D&DG retconned? I can't find mention of that in older sources.

Sounds 3E-esque.

1B) If no to (1), are there any qualitative differences in the kind of power a planar lord can grant compared to that granted by a god (fewer followers empowered at once, fewer spell levels granted, fewer sphere/domain options available, etc.)?

More than likely yes; among other things, it's quite likely that the general understanding that gods shall not disrupt other gods or their followers basically goes out the window when it comes to, say, an archfiend. In turn, the vesting of inordinate amounts of planar lord-esque power into something on the Prime (such as an Elder Evil) may in one way or another disrupt the ability of gods to connect with their followers or the Prime in some ordinary way. You might liken it to sneaking onto a broadband connection - the gods of evil don't want demon lords and archdevils accruing followers from their own potential bases of worship, for example.

2) Aside from Lolth and sorta kinda Tenebrous, are there any other beings that are/were both gods and planar lords?

Tiamat was at one point listed as Lord of the First, though in truth (i.e. retcons from later materials) she never was. Hel and Hades could technically make not unreasonable claims to being planar lords of a sort, though neither possesses status of that kind. It's possible that unknown "lordships" may exist corresponding to planes not usually reckoned in that matter - Odin and Surtur may have some particular cognate role with regards to the layers of Ysgard and Muspelheim, for instance.

3) Are there any downsides to being both a god and a planar lord (aside from in specific spheres like Toril where being gods makes you very dependent on worship where a planar lord is independent of that)? Lolth seems to be doing just fine.

Lolth's also arguably not a planar lord anymore, at least not in that way. She's a full-blown goddess, and her rule over a planar layer isn't uncommon for deities in the Abyss, which after all is the most viciously individualistic of planes. I would expect that trying to be both in a place where it matters (Baator, say) would be much more difficult as there's an order the plane desires you to follow which would conflict with the godhead.

3A) If no to (3), is there a particular reason why more planar lords don't aim for godhood, or do they in fact mostly want to be gods and it's just hard to get there?

Several do, on occasion, attempt to pursue godhood, which represents a significant power jump in many ways but also brings certain dependencies and limitations. It's not an easy transition to make.

4) Do we know the specifics on what's actually necessary to resurrect a dead god?

We do not, particularly, and it's quite possible the particulars are idiosyncratic to each deity. A powerful expression of directed faith in some form is almost certainly a requirement - it's possible that the sacrifice of the Wand of Orcus, recognizing the divinity of the figure by offering up its own past in testament to a great belief, would fall under this category. No doubt Quah-Namog had a lot of homework to do to get a god back on his feet, and I would expect that his process was only really able to be "sped up" because of the bizarre nature of Orcus's "undead divinity."

[Feantar]

Tiamat was at one point listed as Lord of the First, though in truth (i.e. retcons from later materials) she never was. Hel and Hades could technically make not unreasonable claims to being planar lords of a sort, though neither possesses status of that kind. It's possible that unknown "lordships" may exist corresponding to planes not usually reckoned in that matter - Odin and Surtur may have some particular cognate role with regards to the layers of Ysgard and Muspelheim, for instance.

Lolth's also arguably not a planar lord anymore, at least not in that way. She's a full-blown goddess, and her rule over a planar layer isn't uncommon for deities in the Abyss, which after all is the most viciously individualistic of planes. I would expect that trying to be both in a place where it matters (Baator, say) would be much more difficult as there's an order the plane desires you to follow which would conflict with the godhead.

Doresain supposedly was master of an Abyssal layer before Yeenoghu messed things up for it. It is also a deity of ghouls, so I think it qualifies.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Oh hey Dice! Good to see you again.

You too, Afro, and thanks for the help with the Elder Evil stuff in my last campaign, everything ended up going very well...though the PCs might disagree.

More than likely yes; among other things, it's quite likely that the general understanding that gods shall not disrupt other gods or their followers basically goes out the window when it comes to, say, an archfiend. In turn, the vesting of inordinate amounts of planar lord-esque power into something on the Prime (such as an Elder Evil) may in one way or another disrupt the ability of gods to connect with their followers or the Prime in some ordinary way. You might liken it to sneaking onto a broadband connection - the gods of evil don't want demon lords and archdevils accruing followers from their own potential bases of worship, for example.

1) Can gods detect when someone is "muscling in" on their territory like this via portfolio sense or other means? Whether it's a planar lord or another god, like your earlier Shar and Eshowdow example.
1a) If not, why not, given that "Hmm, all my priest in that temple are suddenly sending less belief my way" would seem to be fairly noticeable?
1b) If so, how does that kind of interference or usurpation ever successfully happen at all?

2) On a related note, how do heresies work, exactly? Power of Faerûn says:

In a world where deities are tangible beings who directly communicate with their followers through manifestations, miracles, and spells such as commune, the opportunity for heresy would seem to be minimal. Nevertheless, to the amazement of devout worshipers, differences among the faithful--sometimes escalating to the level of heresy--are seemingly tolerated by most deities.

...which basically works out to an answer of "¯\_(ツ)_/¯". Now, heresies about something like, say, which of Torm's holy days are most important to him or other minor things make some sense since it doesn't really harm Torm if he doesn't step in and correct the disagreement. But the Risen Sun heresy or Dark Moon heresy or other "Deity X is actually secretly [the same as/an aspect of/a reincarnation of/etc.] Deity Y, so worshipers of X should direct their worship to Y or to an imaginary being invented by the heresy instead" would seem to be a big problem in need of correcting as soon as possible. So what's the deal?

Lolth's also arguably not a planar lord anymore, at least not in that way. She's a full-blown goddess, and her rule over a planar layer isn't uncommon for deities in the Abyss, which after all is the most viciously individualistic of planes. I would expect that trying to be both in a place where it matters (Baator, say) would be much more difficult as there's an order the plane desires you to follow which would conflict with the godhead.

3a) Is there a particular reason she's not a planar lord anymore, considering that the Abyss wouldn't seem to mind someone being both a goddess and a demon prince(ss) at the same time and might in fact encourage that kind of double-dipping because MOAR POWER?
3b) Does her being a "full-blown goddess" now and not before imply that being both a goddess and a planar lord diluted her divine power somehow?

Several do, on occasion, attempt to pursue godhood, which represents a significant power jump in many ways but also brings certain dependencies and limitations. It's not an easy transition to make.

4) Is it easier to go from god to planar lord than from planar lord to god, and would there be any reason one might want to do that aside from not wanting to be dependent on worship anymore?

We do not, particularly, and it's quite possible the particulars are idiosyncratic to each deity. A powerful expression of directed faith in some form is almost certainly a requirement - it's possible that the sacrifice of the Wand of Orcus, recognizing the divinity of the figure by offering up its own past in testament to a great belief, would fall under this category. No doubt Quah-Namog had a lot of homework to do to get a god back on his feet, and I would expect that his process was only really able to be "sped up" because of the bizarre nature of Orcus's "undead divinity."

5) How would the gods feel about someone doing this kind of homework? Would they be more concerned with quashing all knowledge of god-resurrecting rituals to prevent rivals from returning, or would they want to leave it intact despite the risk in case they needed to be resurrected some day, or a little of column A and a little of column B depending on the god?

6) Where or with whom in Faerûn might the information necessary to (re)construct such a ritual be found? I'm thinking probably Candlekeep 'cause it's where all the cool kids go for their research on really obscure topics, possibly Ioulaum or Larloch since they've been alive/undead and hoarding arcane lore for a really long time, and possibly some Imaskari ruins or artifacts since they seem to know a good bit about mucking around with gods; any other sites or individuals come to mind?

[Naanomi]

Were there Rilmani during the War of Law and Chaos? If so, were they involved? Seems like the kind of thing abiorachs would have been in the mix trying to stop at the early 'Wind Dukes take everything over' stage...

[enderlord99]

Is there a (notable) group that has a chain of command that is actually a circle, but nobody involves knows it's a circle, and so they continue following old orders that they themselves issued much earlier, but which have since become unrecognizable?

If there is, I'm guessing they're Acheronian.

EDIT: Bonus points if nobody involved agrees with the objective anymore, but they all keep quiet about it to avoid offending their supposed superiors.

So... is there?

[Tzardok]

Were there Rilmani during the War of Law and Chaos? If so, were they involved? Seems like the kind of thing abiorachs would have been in the mix trying to stop at the early 'Wind Dukes take everything over' stage...

I think at the war's beginning the rilmani's precedessors, the kamarel, represented neutrality. The rilmani replaced them only sometime into the war.

So... is there?

I think if you didn't get an answer until now, you won't get an answer ever. The idea seems too silly to me.

[afroakuma]

You too, Afro, and thanks for the help with the Elder Evil stuff in my last campaign, everything ended up going very well...though the PCs might disagree.

Always good to hear.

1) Can gods detect when someone is "muscling in" on their territory like this via portfolio sense or other means? Whether it's a planar lord or another god, like your earlier Shar and Eshowdow example.

Yes and no... portfolio sense has a hard time covering "your purview is perfectly fine, it's just your job handling said purview that's in jeopardy." A god can sense loss of faith, especially when it becomes more significant - it's like thirst or hunger. It's also not really sensed in terms of a transaction, so when Bane loses a worshiper, he doesn't know who or what that person now worships. He could probably suss it out if he devoted sufficient attention to monitoring a particular follower, which is the sort of thing he'd do when a priest prayed to him warning about a drop in subscribers.

2) On a related note, how do heresies work, exactly? Power of Faerûn says:

...which basically works out to an answer of "¯\_(ツ)_/¯". Now, heresies about something like, say, which of Torm's holy days are most important to him or other minor things make some sense since it doesn't really harm Torm if he doesn't step in and correct the disagreement. But the Risen Sun heresy or Dark Moon heresy or other "Deity X is actually secretly [the same as/an aspect of/a reincarnation of/etc.] Deity Y, so worshipers of X should direct their worship to Y or to an imaginary being invented by the heresy instead" would seem to be a big problem in need of correcting as soon as possible. So what's the deal?

Gods are entities of belief; "heresies" are just another facet of that belief, typically one heterodoxic to the beliefs promulgated by a major church. You might partition them into two broad types: different ways of venerating the principles of the same deity, and veneration of another deity under the wrong name. The former is pretty commonplace; the latter is the more dangerous kind, but it's hard for Eshowdow to deal with people who are actually Shar worshipers conflating the two (but functionally offering veneration to Shar). That's when you have to send your followers to go smack some blasphemers around.

3a) Is there a particular reason she's not a planar lord anymore, considering that the Abyss wouldn't seem to mind someone being both a goddess and a demon prince(ss) at the same time and might in fact encourage that kind of double-dipping because MOAR POWER?

More that the Abyss is just so content to provide room for deities to rule whole layers that it can't be attributed to her time as a demon prince - she's rubbing elbows with the likes of Kali, Beshaba, Urdlen, the Great Mother, Chemosh, Laogzed, Vaprak, Diinkarazan, etc., none of whom are a planar lord in any useful sense of the term.

3b) Does her being a "full-blown goddess" now and not before imply that being both a goddess and a planar lord diluted her divine power somehow?

Lolth had herself a bumpy ride, having gone from goddess to demon prince and back again. When she fell, she lost her divinity and became "merely" an extremely powerful demon, but over time she reclaimed goddess-hood in a new and warped fashion.

4) Is it easier to go from god to planar lord than from planar lord to god, and would there be any reason one might want to do that aside from not wanting to be dependent on worship anymore?

Definitely not. Planar lord to god is challenging, but once you're a god... well, how could I put this best...

5) How would the gods feel about someone doing this kind of homework? Would they be more concerned with quashing all knowledge of god-resurrecting rituals to prevent rivals from returning, or would they want to leave it intact despite the risk in case they needed to be resurrected some day, or a little of column A and a little of column B depending on the god?

It would be pretty hard to figure out, since it's not like there's a fixed ritual for bringing a god back from the dead. The principles involved are deep, obscure, esoteric, and involve more than a bit of basic naked guesswork about things that ultimately cannot be fathomed - not unlike the functioning of the Last Word, for instance, which took more than a few gods by surprise and which they collectively didn't understand beyond "okay so that would be Very Bad For Me" when Tenebrous started using it.

6) Where or with whom in Faerûn might the information necessary to (re)construct such a ritual be found? I'm thinking probably Candlekeep 'cause it's where all the cool kids go for their research on really obscure topics, possibly Ioulaum or Larloch since they've been alive/undead and hoarding arcane lore for a really long time, and possibly some Imaskari ruins or artifacts since they seem to know a good bit about mucking around with gods; any other sites or individuals come to mind?

All good concepts, really - basically you just want to look for anywhere that might involve truly esoteric lore poking at the cosmos in ways you just typically never see. Ruins of the old empires, relics of dead gods, perhaps a couple of Nether Scrolls... remember that it's always going to be an insane kind of experimental process.

Were there Rilmani during the War of Law and Chaos?

For at least part of it, yes.

If so, were they involved?

Unlikely.

Seems like the kind of thing abiorachs would have been in the mix trying to stop at the early 'Wind Dukes take everything over' stage...

Only if a balancing force hadn't risen to stop them - and one did.

So... is there?

I can't think of one offhand, and I'm absolutely uninterested in digging around for one.

[Eurus]

From what little I've been able to find, the lore for the Githzerai includes only the vaguest mention of their basically-a-mirror-of-Vlaakith king. Did they ever properly phase him out and establish a new explanation for the general structure of Githzerai society/hierarchy? Is there a canonical or even potential leader besides Zaerith? Or, if there's really not, is there any redeeming quality to Zaerith that makes him less boring and inexplicably out-of-character sounding for the Githzerai?

[gkathellar]

From what little I've been able to find, the lore for the Githzerai includes only the vaguest mention of their basically-a-mirror-of-Vlaakith king. Did they ever properly phase him out and establish a new explanation for the general structure of Githzerai society/hierarchy? Is there a canonical or even potential leader besides Zaerith? Or, if there's really not, is there any redeeming quality to Zaerith that makes him less boring and inexplicably out-of-character sounding for the Githzerai?

Zaerith was created back when the githzerai were chaotic neutral and kind of undeveloped in general, which was ... I mean, PS:T did some things wrong, but reworking the githzerai into disciplined, LN types wasn't one of those things. Zerthimon is generally a much better fit.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Gods are entities of belief; "heresies" are just another facet of that belief, typically one heterodoxic to the beliefs promulgated by a major church. You might partition them into two broad types: different ways of venerating the principles of the same deity, and veneration of another deity under the wrong name. The former is pretty commonplace; the latter is the more dangerous kind, but it's hard for Eshowdow to deal with people who are actually Shar worshipers conflating the two (but functionally offering veneration to Shar). That's when you have to send your followers to go smack some blasphemers around.

The latter case is the one I was wondering about more. I asked originally because I was reading Power of Faerûn and there's a whole suggested campaign arc about Daelegoth Orndeir preaching that the Risen Sun heresy is true and Lathander is actually (or will shortly become) Amaunator, to the point that he's casting miracles and epic spells in Amaunator's name...and yet Lathander doesn't seem to care at all and the leaders of the Church of Lathander spend about three and a half months just wondering about it and "seeking signs from the Morninglord" about whether the heresy is true.

One would expect that a major public schism in the Church that could divert a ton of worship away from Lathander would get his attention and a response; even if all the worship of Amaunator gets to him anyway at the beginning, the widespread loss of faith in him would be a problem later on. One would also expect that the three heads of Lathander's church, all of whom can cast commune and one of whom can cast miracle, would be constantly attempting to contact Lathander to ask about the truth of the heresy, apparently without success.

1) Any idea why Lathander wouldn't send any direct or indirect message in this instance, and not only not send followers to smack Daelegoth upside the head but actively empower his epic spells?

2) More generally, why wouldn't a god immediately clear things up (or at least respond to a commune about the matter) in such a situation? Lathander and Amaunator is a kind of special case because they're both sun gods and so Lathander might be lackadaisical about correcting things, but something like the Dark Moon heresy (where Selûne and Shar hate each other and followers of the heresy were judged False, but priests of the heresy got divine power just fine) shouldn't have survived long at all.

[Caelestion]

I seem to recall that the Chinese Whispers idea is actually a thing somewhere in Planescape - maybe the Acheronian border town.

[Darth Ultron]

1) Any idea why Lathander wouldn't send any direct or indirect message in this instance, and not only not send followers to smack Daelegoth upside the head but actively empower his epic spells?

2) More generally, why wouldn't a god immediately clear things up (or at least respond to a commune about the matter) in such a situation? Lathander and Amaunator is a kind of special case because they're both sun gods and so Lathander might be lackadaisical about correcting things, but something like the Dark Moon heresy (where Selûne and Shar hate each other and followers of the heresy were judged False, but priests of the heresy got divine power just fine) shouldn't have survived long at all.

Because a God can talk directly to people....does not mean they should over much. A lot of people are way, way, way too much of followers and will obsess over any thing that is The Word of a God. Should the God just mention "I like the color Blue'', the next day a murderhobo crusade is born to kill off all color in the world except blue. In general, few Gods have casual talk with their followers.

In general Gods of the Realms accept the other Gods/Divine beings and don't just ''slay'' them. So Gods won't just say ''go kill X''. Oppose the other Gods ideas and followers, but not (always) by pure violence.

Gods don't clear things up for lots of reasons....like Gods are no very ''clear'' on much. But a good reason is that it is a good test. If a follower is good and faithful they won't be tempted by anything...even a heresy. Of course the not so good and unfaithful might fall for it. Some that fall...might..find their way back to the god, their faith made stronger. But some will be lost.

[Shark Uppercut]

So glad you're doing this again. These threads are amazing.

1. If there are blades in Aoskar’s body, would it be worthwhile to go to the Astral, rip one out of him, and smelt it into a god-killing weapon?

2. Are any Titans holding the titles of demon lord, vassal to one of the 9 Lords of Hell, or yugoloth general?
If not, why do titans contribute so little to planar politics and conflicts?

3. I know that you don't use any Pathfinder material, but as a DM looking for ideas, do you like the new outsiders? Are Qlippoths too similar to Obryliths? Did Kytons deserve to break out and get their own subtype? Were Psychopomps an appropriate niche that 3.5 was missing?

[Lord_Gareth]

Are Qlippoths too similar to Obryliths?

Ahahahaha, haaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha, oh man, that's a good one.

No. Obyriths have class. Qlippoths are weird nihilists.

[afroakuma]

From what little I've been able to find, the lore for the Githzerai includes only the vaguest mention of their basically-a-mirror-of-Vlaakith king. Did they ever properly phase him out and establish a new explanation for the general structure of Githzerai society/hierarchy?

The phase-out wasn't really done in any kind of complete fashion; at a certain point they just kind of stopped talking about/alluding to him.

Is there a canonical or even potential leader besides Zaerith?

Belthomias, the head of the monastery of Zerth'ad'lun, might be one of the more likely candidates - but really, a central leader figure for the entire race kind of goes against githzerai philosophy, which is why the Wizard-King never had the following or respect of the Lich-Queen.

The latter case is the one I was wondering about more. I asked originally because I was reading Power of Faerûn and there's a whole suggested campaign arc about Daelegoth Orndeir preaching that the Risen Sun heresy is true and Lathander is actually (or will shortly become) Amaunator, to the point that he's casting miracles and epic spells in Amaunator's name...and yet Lathander doesn't seem to care at all and the leaders of the Church of Lathander spend about three and a half months just wondering about it and "seeking signs from the Morninglord" about whether the heresy is true.

One would expect that a major public schism in the Church that could divert a ton of worship away from Lathander would get his attention and a response; even if all the worship of Amaunator gets to him anyway at the beginning, the widespread loss of faith in him would be a problem later on. One would also expect that the three heads of Lathander's church, all of whom can cast commune and one of whom can cast miracle, would be constantly attempting to contact Lathander to ask about the truth of the heresy, apparently without success.

1) Any idea why Lathander wouldn't send any direct or indirect message in this instance, and not only not send followers to smack Daelegoth upside the head but actively empower his epic spells?

It's worth noting that the schismatics/heretics in this instance aren't actually proposing the veneration of Amaunator - they're proposing worship of Lathander-as-Amaunator, basically a transitional period for the trappings of the faith for what would essentially be the same god. More than likely, Lathander is looking at getting a lot of new followers out of this if it works out - and until he can see whether or not it's going well, he's not going to tell his orthodox church to shut it down. Neither, however, can he tell them "no, this is perfectly fine, move along" since he does not wish to risk alienating his existing followers. No doubt they continue to cast commune, and are given vague non-answers such as KEEP THE FAITH or AWAIT or DOUBT ME NOT or some other similarly divine mumbo jumbo. The fact that they can continue to crack off spells of that caliber should reassure them that the Morninglord is with them, without requiring him to make an endorsement.

2) More generally, why wouldn't a god immediately clear things up (or at least respond to a commune about the matter) in such a situation? Lathander and Amaunator is a kind of special case because they're both sun gods and so Lathander might be lackadaisical about correcting things, but something like the Dark Moon heresy (where Selûne and Shar hate each other and followers of the heresy were judged False, but priests of the heresy got divine power just fine) shouldn't have survived long at all.

Besides the fact that gods are extremely busy, something like the Dark Moon heresy isn't going to look like a bunch of dumb humans to either Shar or Selûne - it's going to look like a new angle in their ceaseless war, and each of them is going to think the other is behind it. In a world where wizards can quite easily throw up illusions, "proof" that the goddesses want people to knock it off is about as useful as, well... any kind of evidence proposed to someone pigheaded. See also the backfire effect, which is a real and obnoxious thing. In the case of Lathander and Amaunator, the latter isn't actively angling to seize power from the former. In the case of the two goddesses, each may view the heresy as an opportunity to weaken the other, as an attack on themselves, as the overt move covering up a deeper plot... and their followers, as well as the believers in the heresy, will remain invested accordingly, with the goddess's efforts to check the heresy being stymied by how much each would like to leverage it up the other's nose. Add in that it's simply not a big enough thing for either to heavily invest in stopping, and it shouldn't be hard to imagine how such a thing could persist.

So glad you're doing this again. These threads are amazing.

Glad you enjoy.

1. If there are blades in Aoskar’s body, would it be worthwhile to go to the Astral, rip one out of him, and smelt it into a god-killing weapon?

Any such things found in his body wouldn't actually be the blades of the Lady of Pain, but rather just a representation of the trauma that slew the God of Gates. That being said, belief has a lot of power on the Planes - and it's quite likely that Aoskar's body is one of those more heavily policed by the Guardian of the Dead Gods for that reason.

2. Are any Titans holding the titles of demon lord, vassal to one of the 9 Lords of Hell, or yugoloth general?

None.

If not, why do titans contribute so little to planar politics and conflicts?

Well, in fairness, the Titans don't reside on Baator, Hades, or in the Abyss; their lands are in Carceri. They're also generally disinclined to abandon their parochial stewing in their own resentment of their successors to consider any matter worth their time that doesn't involve maintaining their own realms or scheming against Zeus et. al. I actually did see an adventure involving two of the Titans... can't remember where, offhand, but it might have been in Vortex of Madness.

3. I know that you don't use any Pathfinder material, but as a DM looking for ideas, do you like the new outsiders?

Generally no; I find that Pathfinder uses a really repetitive format when making new outsider races, and I've never liked their need to express how the Whateverrace are composed of tiered interpretations of Concept with this one being This Variation, this other being That Variation, and so forth. I've also found some of the designs just lazy or wickedly dull - olethrodaemons look stupid, akvans look stupid, iathavos look stupid...

Are Qlippoths too similar to Obryliths?

Qlippoths wish - they're a pale imitation and badly designed.

Did Kytons deserve to break out and get their own subtype?

No... but I've generally minded that less, since they did find something to do with them.

Were Psychopomps an appropriate niche that 3.5 was missing?

I wasn't particularly impressed by them.

[Dalmosh]

Chaos Beast Corporeal Instability seems really... dangerous.

What motivates Chaos Beasts, and what is their ecology in Limbo beyond hunting Slaadi and being hunted and skinned by Neraphim hunting parties?

Do they actively seek to leave Limbo and invade other Planes, turning the inhabitants into Chaos Beasts? Or is that more something that happens inadvertently when mages summon or call them off plane? They don't speak, but do they communicate at all, or interact with one another? Can they mimic speech?

Their 3.5 stat block seems to present them as being very poorly equipped to survive in unstable Limbo. Do they shape Limbo unconsciously like Slaadi?

What tactics/abilities/items do the Githzerai usually use against them to stop Corporeal Instability spreading? Are Chaos Beasts a threat to Gith cities and monasteries?

Dwiergus is presented as an Advanced templated Chaos Beast evolved into a Demon Lord, though that is probably more crunch than actual lore. Are there other known unique Chaos Beasts of note?

To the average basher, how are Chaos Beasts different to Farspawn beyond where they come from?

[JoeyTheNeko]

I forget exactly, is there any word on exactly how chaonids and their lawful counterparts came to be? since slaad have a method of reproduction rather unique and modrons are not the kind to fall in love.

[hamishspence]

I forget exactly, is there any word on exactly how chaonids and their lawful counterparts came to be? since slaad have a method of reproduction rather unique and modrons are not the kind to fall in love.

I'm pretty sure that zenthyri - the lilac humanoids:

Spoiler: MM2 Planetouched

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are descended from the extremely Lawful Wind Dukes of Aaqa (the vaati), rather than from modrons.

EDIT: the last time the question came up, afroakuma suggested mercane/arcane as another possibility:

New question: Chaonds are descended from Slaads, but their unchaotic counterparts the Zenkyri are said to descend from "unknown beings of Law". Is there any information available about those progenitors?

It's thought that the zenythri's ancestors could be the mercane/arcane or even the vaati. There's no confirmation, in any event, so you're free to decide as you like.

While regular slaadi have that weird reproduction method, their close cousins from Planar Handbook (neraphim), don't. I think mud slaadi might also work differently from regular slaadi. Both of those could be the ancestors of chaonds.

Mud Slaadi are almost exactly the same color as chaonds:

Spoiler: FF Mud Slaad

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Neraphim are more orange-red - like a red slaad spin-off:

Spoiler: Planar handbook Neraph

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So, I'd say mud-slaad/human crossing (probably via magic) is the most likely origin of chaond ancestors.

[Clistenes]

I wonder... In Faerun, gods seem to kill each other all the time (well, at least that's they do of late...), but nobody seems to bother really weak and decadent deities like Doresain, Gorellik, Laogzed and Ramenos...

I mean, Doresain seems to be just an advanced ghoul with one divine rank... he can teleport away if he feels threatened, but there probably are a bunch of deities able to scry, teleport and kill him in a single turn, before he has time to react...

As for Gorellik, he probably is too stupid, insane and wrathful to even try to run.

Laogzed and Ramenos have degenerated so much they are barely sentient...

4) Do we know the specifics on what's actually necessary to resurrect a dead god? All Dead Gods says about resurrecting Orcus is the following:

According to the Lost Gods novels, you need to recover the body of the deity, an artifact storing a portion of the deity's power (such as the Hand of Bane or the Scepter of Orcus), and a shard of the deity's spirit, which could be stored inside another artifact (such as the Crown of Horns) or a proxy (such as a banelich high priest). You have to put all the three pieces together, and a cleric of the deceased deity must chant a special spell...

But I think Afroakuma dislikes the way divinity is treated in the Finder's Stone and Lost Gods trilogies...

I'm pretty sure that zenthyri - the lilac humanoids:

Spoiler: MM2 Planetouched

Show

are descended from the extremely Lawful Wind Dukes of Aaqa (the vaati), rather than from modrons.

EDIT: the last time the question came up, afroakuma suggested mercane/arcane as another possibility:

I always assumed that zenthyri were what happens when a baatorian tierfling and a (mount) celestial aasimar had a baby: The fiendish/celestial parts cancel each other, and what remains is just the lawful part...

[Darth Ultron]

I wonder... In Faerun, gods seem to kill each other all the time (well, at least that's they do of late...), but nobody seems to bother really weak and decadent deities like Doresain, Gorellik, Laogzed and Ramenos...

Well, first off the whole ''killz gods everyday'' is more the worst kind of idiot executive meddling. The folks in charge just keep killing gods as it is ''coolz'', to them anyway. It's kinda odd that in over 5,000 years of Realms history few gods die...but over the course of like 20 years bucket loads of them do. That aside, few of the recent god death's are direct normal fights...most fall under ''special''.

In general, gods exist in a truce with one another. To not just war against each other can cause Armageddon everyday. The idea of the gods it to fight each others message, but not overly go holy war on the messengers or the message creator. This also has the addition of treaties, deals, agreements and such made by each god with everyone else.

For a god to kill another god, in just a straight up fight, will leave the attacking god weakened even if they win. And there is a chance another god might attack in that moment of weakness. Plus, a lot of gods will have ''mutual defense pacts'', you attack god A, and gods B and C will step into help.

Planescape lore has a lot of hints that gods like Doresain, Gorellik, Laogzed and Ramenos, might know all sorts of darks...secrets...about the Multiverse. Something they got or knew at the height of their power..once upon a time...and have kept mostly to themselves. Something they can use to get things from others.

[enderlord99]

I always assumed that zenthyri were what happens when a baatorianInfernal tierfling and a (mount) celestial aasimar had a baby: The fiendish/celestial parts cancel each other, and what remains is just the lawful part...

FTFY. Just a technicality.

[Jowgen]

In keeping with the apparent current theme of questions relationg to specific creatures: What is the deal with Nishruu?

Are they a kind of Limbo exemplar, a type of far-realm tainted thing, evil-wizard made species, or a sorta (dead)deity minion? Is there any significance in how there are those with teeth (PgtF) and those without (MoF)? Can they actually talk in the end?

If there genuinely isn't any lore on them, Afroakonjecture would be most welcome.

[afroakuma]

What motivates Chaos Beasts, and what is their ecology in Limbo beyond hunting Slaadi and being hunted and skinned by Neraphim hunting parties?

They have no listed ecology, of course - not surprising - but I would conjecture that their ecological function is not unlike antibodies, attracted to beings of fixed form and nature with intent to strip them of same. I can't imagine they're particularly interested in "hunting" slaad - chaos beasts "eat" the matter of Limbo itself, like strange earthworms.

Do they actively seek to leave Limbo and invade other Planes, turning the inhabitants into Chaos Beasts?

No.

They don't speak, but do they communicate at all, or interact with one another? Can they mimic speech?

No, and no. Chaos beasts are solitary and unconcerned with the concept of expressing ideas to other beings.

Their 3.5 stat block seems to present them as being very poorly equipped to survive in unstable Limbo. Do they shape Limbo unconsciously like Slaadi?

Welcome to 3.5, the edition where the Planes are really hard on their natives. I recommend rolling with the assumption that a plane's traits just don't bother the natives.

What tactics/abilities/items do the Githzerai usually use against them to stop Corporeal Instability spreading?

Use against whom? The victims of chaos beasts? Probably whatever's on hand to kill you with, if you're unimportant, or the usual solutions to the problem if you are (stoneskin and restoration). The chaos beasts themselves? They move slowly and have lame AC and HP, ranged attacks and a few spells or psionic abilities that don't allow resistance ought to tackle one down easily enough. Githzerai are pretty on the ball when it comes to organizing into groups to deal with stuff.

Are Chaos Beasts a threat to Gith cities and monasteries?

They probably were at some point long ago, but I'd imagine over the centuries the githzerai have figured out how to deal with them and keep them away.

Dwiergus is presented as an Advanced templated Chaos Beast evolved into a Demon Lord, though that is probably more crunch than actual lore. Are there other known unique Chaos Beasts of note?

An adventure in Dungeon #124 presented the "pandemonium beast," though really that's not so much a unique individual as it is an expression or incarnation of the horrors of Pandemonium. It's arguably a related kind of creature of which only one specimen has been seen. But there's little sense getting into that. As to the question itself? No.

To the average basher, how are Chaos Beasts different to Farspawn beyond where they come from?

A chaos beast won't drive you insane just by looking at it and doesn't contaminate physical reality outside of whatever living beings it can smack.

I forget exactly, is there any word on exactly how chaonids and their lawful counterparts came to be? since slaad have a method of reproduction rather unique and modrons are not the kind to fall in love.

I'm pretty sure slaad are chaotic enough that they can wrangle making a few chaonds. I'm quite certain they'd be willing to try.

I wonder... In Faerun, gods seem to kill each other all the time (well, at least that's they do of late...), but nobody seems to bother really weak and decadent deities like Doresain, Gorellik, Laogzed and Ramenos...

Well, Doresain was subjugated by Orcus for quite some time. Gorellik had an ongoing struggle with Yeenoghu. As for the other two, they're virtually inert, sedentary things. Ramenos is generally asleep, and Laogzed barely registers that there's a race which worships him. Notable powers these are not.

I mean, Doresain seems to be just an advanced ghoul with one divine rank... he can teleport away if he feels threatened, but there probably are a bunch of deities able to scry, teleport and kill him in a single turn, before he has time to react...

Sure, but who wants to? Is there a purpose to committing any amount of your divine power to blowing up the god of corpses that like to nibble on other corpses?

As for Gorellik, he probably is too stupid, insane and wrathful to even try to run.

I'd imagine some deities could approach him, under certain circumstances - but yes, he's seen better days.

Laogzed and Ramenos have degenerated so much they are barely sentient...

Accurate. Probably for the best, too.

But I think Afroakuma dislikes the way divinity is treated in the Finder's Stone and Lost Gods trilogies...

I dunno, I enjoyed the Finder's Stone trilogy. Took a while to track down Song of the Saurials, mind you... but I got a copy in the end.

In keeping with the apparent current theme of questions relationg to specific creatures: What is the deal with Nishruu?

Are they a kind of Limbo exemplar, a type of far-realm tainted thing, evil-wizard made species, or a sorta (dead)deity minion?

None of these. They are creatures which originate on an alternate Prime. It's likely that some of the old magical empires brought them across in an effort to make use of their properties in some fashion, draining magic from rivals and then somehow extracting it from the creature.

Is there any significance in how there are those with teeth (PgtF) and those without (MoF)?

An eater-of-magic with maws and teeth is not a nishruu; it is a hakeashar, a related and marginally more dangerous creature (they're largely identical).

Can they actually talk in the end?

They're certainly sufficiently intelligent, but are not noted to understand or have capability with any language, and lack any discernible method of generating speech. Hakeashars are also not noted to speak, but it is suggested that spellcasters have devised a method to communicate with a hakeashar at some point, though one doesn't imagine the conversation to be particularly broad or stimulating.

[Clistenes]

Sure, but who wants to? Is there a purpose to committing any amount of your divine power to blowing up the god of corpses that like to nibble on other corpses?

Well, even if those are pathetic deities, their divine sparks are still valuable godly power... And seizing the gnolls, bullywugs and troglodytes as worshippers would provide a lot of worship...

Even their portafolios would be appealing to some of the most degenerate deities: Incabulos, Yurtrus and Urdlen come to mind...

[Naanomi]

What would be a reasonable home plane for an evil Rat God concerned mostly with urban life, the poor (especially in overthrowing the rich), General scheming, and mob-mentality leadership (in an ‘us Vs them’ sense)? I was thinking Dis or burrowed into Gehenna somewhere...

Also, there are hints of surviving Baatorians and Kamarel here and there... any clues to lingering Arborean precursors still about?

Also, still interested in your thoughts on the ‘space’ away from Gehenna and between the spheres of Carceri

[Tzardok]

Hmm, Gehenna fits, but why don't you put him for a twist in Bytopia, working to undermine their benevolent order?

I think Afro once made a table: the exemplars of the alignments and their respective precursors. In that Eladrin where the precursors of Chaotic Good, the only precursors to be still strong in the multiverse.

[enderlord99]

I think Afro once made a table: the exemplars of the alignments and their respective precursors.

Indeed he did. I don't remember which thread it's in, though.

In that Eladrin where the precursors of Chaotic Good, the only precursors to be still strong in the multiverse.

That's not how I interpreted the censor-bar-thingy...

[Tzardok]

I found the table!

You are right, there's just a black bar. Don't know where I got my idea from; maybe something he said later, maybe it just fermented in my brain.

[Khedrac]

Troll Stalkers or Truzlanan (or Spirit Trolls, but those are something else in other editions) - the only reference I know of to these air elementals is in "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft" (which doesn't have a 'New Monsters' section so may not be the original source); so do you know any more about them or is this really their only reference?

Following on, Nicoramus talks about being in a 'war long forgotten' - my first thought was "air elemental + long ago war = War of Law and Chaos?" but that was isn't exactly forgotten and Nicoramus claims to have been victorious in the war (which is not the same as being on the winning side) not to mention that (s)he is Neutral in alignment. So, have you any suggestions as to what other war they might date from?

I am interested in your theories as well as anything that is canon (partially because I am not expecting any more canon that what I have).

(Thinking about it I can see the Wind Dukes making Neutral creatures as weapons - they would ignore defences against Law, which means that war's not ruled out.)

[Tzardok]

I've got a question about the Court of Stars. If I understood it correctly, Queen Morwel is the only permanent member of the court, and other members are invited or dismissed at her whim. Currently only Faerinal and Gwynharwyf are members. Are ex-members known? Was Morwel the only queen the eladrin ever had? The Book of Exalted Deeds claimed that the every "temporary" member of the Court bears the title queen consort, is that true? If yes, does that mean they all have... connubialities?