afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[Venger]

Besides soul gems, most souls as currency are in the form of larvae, which are kind of like little blobs iirc. Fc1 or FC2 goes over it. They are kind of creature like so just shove them in a sack of your choosing I would guess. Really plays up their value as essentially trade commodities.

Sure, I know that's how it works in baator itself, I was more asking about what happens if you're harvesting souls elsewhere, where I don't think soul grubs exist.

EDIT: while we're on it, why are night hags so different from the other 3 kinds of hags? they're outsiders from hades it looks like, not monstrous humanoids like their sisters.

what are blue hags? are they canon? are they outsiders too? where are they from?

did the other hags used to be outsiders but got demoted when hell was formed or for not being evil enough? did night hags perform some great service to evil gods and get uplifted to outsider status?

how do hags reproduce? I thought they could breed with male humans or giants to yield either hags or hagspawn, but research indicates they might also eat babies of various species and birth a hag one week later. which if any of these is right? is it a third thing?

[Tzardok]

Once you get souls (through faustian pacts, etc) how do you physically incarnate them so you can sell them, trade them, use them as spell components, etc. Soul bind lets you store them in gems so you can carry them around. Are there other ways to do this? I know night hags trade in souls, which is why they hang out in baator. how do they carry them around?

Night hags mostly use larvae. "Ecology of the Night Hag", an article from Dragon Magazine #324, claims that night hags have a talent for sensing which people will become larvae after their death, and that they know exactly where in Hades the soul of someone they rode to death manifests. So they only need to go there and collect the larva.

Sure, I know that's how it works in baator itself, I was more asking about what happens if you're harvesting souls elsewhere, where I don't think soul grubs exist.

Larvae are primarily a phenomenon of Hades, but appear on all the lower planes.

EDIT: while we're on it, why are night hags so different from the other 3 kinds of hags? they're outsiders from hades it looks like, not monstrous humanoids like their sisters.

Cegilune (NE Lesser power of hags, larvae and the moon) used to be a beautiful moon goddess, until she become bitter and twisted at her lack of worship. She transformed her last worshippers into the first hags. The origin of the night hags isn't known. "Ecology of the Night Hag" offers the hypothesis that they are Cegilune's daughters, but also mentions that Cegilune hates night hags as unworthy thieves of souls. This can be a counterargument or not, as both Cegilune and night hags are petty and covetous enough to steal from each other. An alternate hypothesis is that the Hades looked at Cegilune's creations, saw that she had a good thing going and spawned something to ape the hags.

what are blue hags? are they canon? are they outsiders too? where are they from?

Never heard of them. Didn't appear in Google and the Wikipedia entry on D&D hags doesn't mention them too. Where did you get them?

how do hags reproduce? I thought they could breed with male humans or giants to yield either hags or hagspawn, but research indicates they might also eat babies of various species and birth a hag one week later. which if any of these is right? is it a third thing?

This "eat babies" thing was added in 4e and therefore is not considered canon in this thread (like everything else after 3.5). Seducing people is it for hags.

[afroakuma]

Hey, afroakuma. I have a question which I ask on another thread. Have the Red Dragon Deity Garyx always been insane or mentally unstable?

The early attestations of Garyx make no mention of insanity or instability; indeed, the most famous early myth of him (from over 20,000 years ago) is of he and the giant deity Annam playing a chess-like game to a thousand-year stalemate, suggesting a razor-keen mind. It should be noted that Garyx leaks status as you travel forward through his mentions; while the first appearance of Garyx suggests a greater deity residing in the Abyss, in 3rd Edition sources we find him a lesser deity in Pandemonium, and apparently mad. Perhaps the era of truly epic draconic destruction has abated, and Garyx fled the Abyss to regroup and plot how to burn it all down again.

Here's a question i've been trying to figure out some time now.

What are the Limitations on Plane Shift/Gate? Can they transend Crystal Spheres (provided you have information about an other Planar Cosmology)? Or would that be more in the Wavelenghth of an Epic Spell to emulate?

Any pice of lore that suggests either would be greatly appreciated.

Plane shift would be specifically useless in the context of crystal spheres, which are on the same plane. Gate has the same limitation. What you'd be looking for is greater teleport, which can absolutely pop you from one crystal sphere to another, provided local circumstances permit. It may be more challenging to bypass a crystal sphere with such a spell, or outright impossible, depending on the particular qualities set for that sphere.

Once you get souls (through faustian pacts, etc) how do you physically incarnate them so you can sell them, trade them, use them as spell components, etc. Soul bind lets you store them in gems so you can carry them around. Are there other ways to do this? I know night hags trade in souls, which is why they hang out in baator. how do they carry them around?

You'd normally collect them either post-mortem, in which case they physically exist on an Outer Plane, or in some kind of receptacle if you're to claim them from life (via trap the soul or similar). If the contract has a physical form, it might also function as a medium for the transaction of a soul, though not unlike a land title the possession of the document does not necessarily confer any physical immediacy...

EDIT: while we're on it, why are night hags so different from the other 3 kinds of hags? they're outsiders from hades it looks like, not monstrous humanoids like their sisters.

Night hags are an altogether different thing from the hags of the Prime. While these are natural beings, albeit with a supernatural and parasitic life cycle, night hags are most decidedly not - they are fiends, and each exists through trespass upon the realms of mortals and violations of the most perverse and awful sort. Whatever fell will brought the first night hag into existence, the perpetuation of their line is a crass blasphemy and one of the dark secrets of the Lower Planes. Even the mythology surrounding Cegilune's origins makes no mention of the night hag, and the foul ogresses of the Gray Waste pay the Goddess of Scorn no more heed than she can compel from them.

what are blue hags? are they canon? are they outsiders too? where are they from?

Bheurs, or blue hags, are monsters native to Rashemen, on Toril. They are believed to be affiliated with Auril the Frostmaiden. They are monstrous humanoids.

did the other hags used to be outsiders but got demoted when hell was formed or for not being evil enough?

The only myth that makes any real allusion to the origins of hags suggests that the annis, green hag, and sea hag originated as mortal servants of Cegilune in a fairer age.

how do hags reproduce? I thought they could breed with male humans or giants to yield either hags or hagspawn, but research indicates they might also eat babies of various species and birth a hag one week later. which if any of these is right? is it a third thing?

Mortal hags reproduce by mating with mortal races. The resultant child, if male, becomes a hagspawn. If female, the child is taken and given into the care of a member of the father's race; oftentimes as a convenience this will be done by swapping the hag's offspring for a newborn of that race. A hag's child is hearty, happy, healthy, and grows into a woman of that race... but around middle age, the change takes them, and their true nature emerges.

[Venger]

Night hags mostly use larvae. "Ecology of the Night Hag", an article from Dragon Magazine #324, claims that night hags have a talent for sensing which people will become larvae after their death, and that they know exactly where in Hades the soul of someone they rode to death manifests. So they only need to go their and collect the larva.

Ok, so if I'm not a hag and get someone's soul somehow (and can't cast trap the soul or whatever) I need to travel to the appropriate plane in a timely fashion after their death and find their grub which will have my name branded on it. Sounds good.

Thank you both.

[afroakuma]

Ok, so if I'm not a hag and get someone's soul somehow (and can't cast trap the soul or whatever) I need to travel to the appropriate plane in a timely fashion after their death and find their grub which will have my name branded on it.

I mean, it definitely will not, and you will have absolutely no rights to it under that scenario.

I'm just curious what methodology you believe gets you someone's soul without allowing you to trap it. That thing from The Simpsons?

Off the cuff, I don't know of any method of legitimately securing the rights to someone's soul that doesn't innately involve bringing it into your possession as part of the deal. For instance, a fiend of corruption's soul bargain ability specifically includes a trap the soul contingent effect at the moment of your customer's passing. Thinaun weapons trap the soul of the one murdered with them inside the blade.

If you've got some kind of magic that entitles you to the soul of another, by definition it should contain an enforcement clause. Do you have an example of something that does not fit that description?

[Venger]

I mean, it definitely will not, and you will have absolutely no rights to it under that scenario.

I'm just curious what methodology you believe gets you someone's soul without allowing you to trap it. That thing from The Simpsons?

Fiend of corruption. It says you can make a deal for someone's soul, and suggests using soul bind or trap the soul, but if you take enough levels to earn this ability, your spellcasting will be sufficiently held back that you won't be able to cast spells like this by yourself.

Off the cuff, I don't know of any method of legitimately securing the rights to someone's soul that doesn't innately involve bringing it into your possession as part of the deal. For instance, a fiend of corruption's soul bargain ability specifically includes a trap the soul contingent effect at the moment of your customer's passing. Thinaun weapons trap the soul of the one murdered with them inside the blade.

This is indeed the ability I was specifically thinking of. If you care, it's related to my coven of druids farming devilweed in baator. I'd thought one of their number would be a planar shepherd attuned to baator and might pursue this class to win souls like a real devil.

I think the disconnect comes from me misinterpreting part of the entry on soul bargain. When I saw the phrase:

Upon the mortal’s death (by any means), her soul is transferred to a gem (prepared as with the soul bind spell when the bargain is forged),

I thought it was listing an example of the kind of thing you could do to house your mark's soul. I didn't parse it as being natively provided by the ability itself, but (obviously) that makes more sense.

[Bartmanhomer]

The early attestations of Garyx make no mention of insanity or instability; indeed, the most famous early myth of him (from over 20,000 years ago) is of he and the giant deity Annam playing a chess-like game to a thousand-year stalemate, suggesting a razor-keen mind. It should be noted that Garyx leaks status as you travel forward through his mentions; while the first appearance of Garyx suggests a greater deity residing in the Abyss, in 3rd Edition sources we find him a lesser deity in Pandemonium, and apparently mad. Perhaps the era of truly epic draconic destruction has abated, and Garyx fled the Abyss to regroup and plot how to burn it all down again.



Plane shift would be specifically useless in the context of crystal spheres, which are on the same plane. Gate has the same limitation. What you'd be looking for is greater teleport, which can absolutely pop you from one crystal sphere to another, provided local circumstances permit. It may be more challenging to bypass a crystal sphere with such a spell, or outright impossible, depending on the particular qualities set for that sphere.



You'd normally collect them either post-mortem, in which case they physically exist on an Outer Plane, or in some kind of receptacle if you're to claim them from life (via trap the soul or similar). If the contract has a physical form, it might also function as a medium for the transaction of a soul, though not unlike a land title the possession of the document does not necessarily confer any physical immediacy...



Night hags are an altogether different thing from the hags of the Prime. While these are natural beings, albeit with a supernatural and parasitic life cycle, night hags are most decidedly not - they are fiends, and each exists through trespass upon the realms of mortals and violations of the most perverse and awful sort. Whatever fell will brought the first night hag into existence, the perpetuation of their line is a crass blasphemy and one of the dark secrets of the Lower Planes. Even the mythology surrounding Cegilune's origins makes no mention of the night hag, and the foul ogresses of the Gray Waste pay the Goddess of Scorn no more heed than she can compel from them.



Bheurs, or blue hags, are monsters native to Rashemen, on Toril. They are believed to be affiliated with Auril the Frostmaiden. They are monstrous humanoids.



The only myth that makes any real allusion to the origins of hags suggests that the annis, green hag, and sea hag originated as mortal servants of Cegilune in a fairer age.



Mortal hags reproduce by mating with mortal races. The resultant child, if male, becomes a hagspawn. If female, the child is taken and given into the care of a member of the father's race; oftentimes as a convenience this will be done by swapping the hag's offspring for a newborn of that race. A hag's child is hearty, happy, healthy, and grows into a woman of that race... but around middle age, the change takes them, and their true nature emerges.

Ok, thank you for the information.

[afroakuma]

This is indeed the ability I was specifically thinking of. If you care, it's related to my coven of druids farming devilweed in baator. I'd thought one of their number would be a planar shepherd attuned to baator and might pursue this class to win souls like a real devil.

Even at 10th level I don't believe you'd qualify; while the capstone makes you an Outsider (extraplanar) on the Prime and (native) on Baator, it does not confer the Evil subtype that you need to get into Fiend of Corruption. Also you'd need to figure out how to get the charm spell-like... but all that's between you and your DM, I suppose.

I thought it was listing an example of the kind of thing you could do to house your mark's soul. I didn't parse it as being natively provided by the ability itself, but (obviously) that makes more sense.

Ah no. Soul Bargain specifically requires you to procure the expensive jewel (you're preparing it, which includes purchasing it and having it in your possession) already ready for your mark. The ability does not conjure a free gemstone out of thin air.

[Alea]

A level of warlock covers the charm person spell-like ability, so that much is easy enough if you don’t mind the lost progression. Divine disciple can get the evil subtype, and it’s an easy-to-enter 5/5 spellcasting PrC.

The bigger problem is that you don’t have the levels for it pre-epic. Planar shepherd requires 5 levels of druid for wild shape, and then is 10 levels long while fiend of corruption is 6 levels long: that’s already 21st level. Adding in a level of warlock and five levels of divine disciple brings you to 27th, at which point the soul bargain ability has long-since ceased to be particularly relevant.

You can, of course, cheese around those, but the best way to do that—Mulhorandi divine minion of Sebek—makes the planar self capstone kind of irrelevant, as it already makes you into an Evil outsider all on its own. Obviously, planar shepherd is excellent for other reasons, so you could still do LA +1/1st-level warlock/2nd-level druid/10th-level planar shepherd/6th-level fiend of corruption, I guess, but it does kind of mess with the storyline if you were an evil outsider the entire time, and you need to already have it before taking your planar shepherd levels (also, the description specifies that divine minions usually have 6 class levels before gaining the template, and those levels are in usually in classes other than druid).

All in all, not going to work really without houserules.

[Venger]

Even at 10th level I don't believe you'd qualify; while the capstone makes you an Outsider (extraplanar) on the Prime and (native) on Baator, it does not confer the Evil subtype that you need to get into Fiend of Corruption. Also you'd need to figure out how to get the charm spell-like... but all that's between you and your DM, I suppose.

You are, of course, correct. I figured I'd either use divine disciple or diabolus divine minion. by the time outsider wild shape is up (which confers slas), you can be in it all day. Not intended for use in play, was working on a story or possibly campaign for these characters, but it's nice to know how it would work mechanically.

Ah no. Soul Bargain specifically requires you to procure the expensive jewel (you're preparing it, which includes purchasing it and having it in your possession) already ready for your mark. The ability does not conjure a free gemstone out of thin air.

Right. I meant the ability to put the soul of the target into said expensive jewel that you bought elsewhere. Thanks again.

[Bartmanhomer]

Does the king of dragon deity, Io ever have a wife or consort? If so, whatever happened to her anyway?

[afroakuma]

Does the king of dragon deity, Io ever have a wife or consort? If so, whatever happened to her anyway?

The Ninefold Dragon did not have a consort, no.

[Efrate]

I am slowly working my way through the older thread and finished most of mapping the infinite and the associated pages, so apologies if you covered this already, but what is the origin of mind flayers?

I have heard humans from the future who travel back.

Creations of the massive psionic brain pool ocean of the 9 hells during the half/fiendish purge. Rather creations of the piece of that which was/is the original elder brain which is in a cave on the outlands.

The interstellar overlords who enslaved the gith and had a star blow up wrecking their empire.

Which is it? Or something else?

Also does Boccabs library work similarly to Thoths with entrapment - esque librarians and whatnot?

[Tzardok]

I am slowly working my way through the older thread and finished most of mapping the infinite and the associated pages, so apologies if you covered this already, but what is the origin of mind flayers?

Holy... You've got a whole bunch of partially right things here. Let's clean up the misunderstandings.

I have heard humans from the future who travel back.

The empire of the mind flayers existed at the end of time. To escape it, the most powerful elder brains sacrificed themselves in a ritual to send their whole empire back in time, where it landed on the Astral plane.
Some people believe that having the Illithid Heritage feats denotes being an ancestor to mind flayers instead of having mind flayers as ancestors, but there is no proof that mind flayers are descended from any modern day humanoids.

Creations of the massive psionic brain pool ocean of the 9 hells during the half/fiendish purge. Rather creations of the piece of that which was/is the original elder brain which is in a cave on the outlands.

Ilsensine is the god of mind flayers and lives on the Outlands, but it is younger than the appearance of their empire in the past. Unless it will create the mind flayers at some point in the future Ilsensine is not their creator. Mind flayers aren't very religious anyway, so... unlikely to be divine creations.
There are rumors that Ilsensine was created accidently by devils trying to replicate the creation of elder brains with mind flayer souls, but again... no proof. Anyway, there is no "massive psionic brain pool ocean" in the Hells, at least not in any description I've read.
I don't know what this half-fiendish purge is supposed to be. Are you maybe confusing it with the Reckoning, a relatively recent massive civil war in Baator?

The interstellar overlords who enslaved the gith and had a star blow up wrecking their empire.

After the mind flayers transfered their interplanar empire to the past, they enslaved the ancestors of the gith. When the gith developed resistance to psionic domination they rebelled and broke the illithid empire. Mind flayers today spent a lot of their time experimenting with the dynamics of humanoid nations because they forgot how they build their empire in the first place.

[Efrate]

These passages from the musèe arcane.

referring to psionic information gathering on Nessus.


...The fleeting images I recall were of a grey pulpy pool as large as nine Prime Oceans, seething with intelligence and malice, more vastly powerful than anything before or since. It seemed the baatezu were the first to invent the Illithid Brain Pool, and they did so with a flourish!

Baatezu try to destroy it, forming the styx and the lethe but

...However, a small part of the sea escaped from harm, draining energy from Caina to stave off the fires...and this is why the eighth plane of Baator is so terribly cold. Pooling the last of its energies, it slipped through the planar border itself, and though it was weak and wizened when it arrived on the Outlands it was still as powerful as a god. Hiding itself away in the caverns near the Spire it became Ilsensine, the illithid creator power.

[Tzardok]

The Musée Arcane, like nearly everything else on mimir.net, is fanmade and written in-character, which makes it possible for the author to be mistaken. You may add things from there to your headcanon (I personally like the Via Romana, and the Planes of Cordance and the Semi-Elemental Planes are treated as canon in this thread), but it's better to treat the quoted passages as rumor instead of gospel. As the quoted text ends with
"Alas, I cannot prove a word."

If you still don't believe me on the origin of mind flayers, read the chapter on illithids in Lords of Madness.

[aj77]

What determines if a creature is weak to silver and/or cold iron?

My impression is that silver purifies Evil and cold iron disrupts Chaos, but I don't think that's consistent.

Are there substances similarly anathema to Good and Law?

[unseenmage]

According to the SRD of your bag of holding is overloaded the "..contents are lost forever."

Where do they go?

Is this just a 3.x thing? Did it exist in other editions?

[gkathellar]

What determines if a creature is weak to silver and/or cold iron?

My impression is that silver purifies Evil and cold iron disrupts Chaos, but I don't think that's consistent.

Are there substances similarly anathema to Good and Law?

There's no unifying relationship between alignment and material DR. Demons can be harmed normally by Cold Iron, and devils can be harmed normally by Alchemical Silver, but this isn't true of lawful or chaotic outsiders in general - you'll note that celestials and slaad have no such relationship with the magical materials.

[AthasianWarlock]

Is The Patient One (LoM) the same god as Tharazidun? I am seeing things online claiming The Patient One is another name for Tharazidun.

[Tzardok]

There's no unifying relationship between alignment and material DR. Demons can be harmed normally by Cold Iron, and devils can be harmed normally by Alchemical Silver, but this isn't true of lawful or chaotic outsiders in general - you'll note that celestials and slaad have no such relationship with the magical materials.

You'll notice that the chaotic celestials, the Eladrin, have the weakness against cold iron

[Sharqking]

Is there any Archomentals or key named elementals (or just key named creatures in general) for the Energy Planes, the Quasi- and the Para- planes.

I know theres Cryonax, who I believe is Ice, but I dont know of any others. Currently Im looking for one for Radiance, but I was curious about the other less common planes as well.

[Caelestion]

The other Para-Archomentals are Bwimb/Bwimb II of Ooze, Ehkhak of Smoke, and Chlimbia of Magma. The Quasi-Archomentals include Gazra of Ash, Crystalle of Minerals, Alu-Kahn-Sang of Dust and (maybe) Sun Sing of Vacuum. 4th Edition then introduces a whole bunch more.

[enderlord99]

When I say "Big A, the archfiend" what are the first 5 archfiends that come to mind, in order?

I doubt I'm likely to get an answer for this, but I'm asking this one more time, just in case I might.

[timeeater14]

I've read these threads for a long time before I signed up, and I'm asking my first question!

What are pit fiends actually called?

Like how bearded devils are actually called barbazu, or how assassin devils are actually called dogai, or how horned devils are actually called cornugons. What is the... I guess "proper" name for a pit fiend?

[Tzardok]

From the 6. thread:

What's the proper name for pit fiends? (Like barbazu for bearded devils, or hamatula for the barbed ones.) Pit fiend sounds more like a colloquial name mortals use.

I don't think any proper name was ever given in canon, so here's a few propositions: feuxagon, flamagon, fossagon, infernagon. Anyone has more?

They don't have one.

[Bartmanhomer]

Ok, I have a question to ask. Has Bahamut ever have a fight or argument with his two other good dragon deity siblings, Tamara and Hlal? If so, what was the conflict about?

[afroakuma]

I am slowly working my way through the older thread and finished most of mapping the infinite and the associated pages, so apologies if you covered this already, but what is the origin of mind flayers?

There's two answers to this one:

• The first appearance of mind flayers chronologically is far in the past, when a number of them traveled back in time to escape some catastrophic future event. The flayers of the present are descendants of these.

• We don't know how the mind flayers originate i.e. at what point they would have emerged without the time travel or why. It's possible they're now a closed loop and self-establish by way of time travel.

Any of the other stuff you read is fanon.

Also does Boccabs library work similarly to Thoths with entrapment - esque librarians and whatnot?

Entrapment whatnow? That's more fanon. Mimir.net, right?

What determines if a creature is weak to silver and/or cold iron?

It's not a particularly consistent thing; while cold iron is bad for fey, eladrin, and tanar'ri (for example), silver is bad for lycanthropes, who aren't linked to Baator or any one alignment. In short - no firm definition.

According to the SRD of your bag of holding is overloaded the "..contents are lost forever."

Where do they go?

Is this just a 3.x thing? Did it exist in other editions?

According to the 2E DMG, they plummet into the "vortices of nilspace." So basically the magic holding up the extradimensional space fails and they plummet into nondimensional space, which is... pretty hard to get back from. Not impossible, of course; a bag of holding rupture is no solution for artifacts, for instance.

Is The Patient One (LoM) the same god as Tharazidun? I am seeing things online claiming The Patient One is another name for Tharazidun.

That would be no. It's been suggested they might be related in some way, but they're distinct entities.

Currently Im looking for one for Radiance, but I was curious about the other less common planes as well.

For Radiance, there are none. The only distinctive unique beings of Radiance that have been named are King Black and Queen White, and we know virtually nothing about them except their names.

I doubt I'm likely to get an answer for this, but I'm asking this one more time, just in case I might.

Asmodeus Asmodeus,
Asmodeus Asmodeus,
oh, oh, oh Asmodeus.

I've read these threads for a long time before I signed up, and I'm asking my first question!

What are pit fiends actually called?

Like how bearded devils are actually called barbazu, or how assassin devils are actually called dogai, or how horned devils are actually called cornugons. What is the... I guess "proper" name for a pit fiend?

As noted above, they don't have one and wouldn't want to. Pit fiends don't consider themselves a "species," they basically feel they're all individuals who have achieved a certain baseline status (and of course all of them feel they've exceeded that baseline much more than their peers). They consider themselves the chosen of Nessus, and thus quite literally "the fiends of the Pit.

Ok, I have a question to ask. Has Bahamut ever have a fight or argument with his two other good dragon deity siblings, Tamara and Hlal? If so, what was the conflict about?

I mean, good deities disagree about stuff all the time, so I'm sure it's happened, but nothing documented.

[Efrate]

FC 2 mentions pit fiends with max hp etc. formed from drops of Asmodeaus's blood from his giant celestial body on Nessus. How many of these are there, and do they all just work as guards on the 9th layer?

If there are a lot why not send some up for the blood war to swing it majorly? And how do the other pit fiends, either regular or of note, feel about those fiends who got it all for free? Especially like the named generals on the first layer.

And again why aren't those super pit fiends replacing the generals because they are just better.

Also, is there a list of remaining Obyrith lords anywhere other than FC1? And which is the strongest if there are more than FC1 lists.

[Eldan]

According to the SRD of your bag of holding is overloaded the "..contents are lost forever."

Where do they go?

Is this just a 3.x thing? Did it exist in other editions?

As per Planescape, lost things generally end up on the Astral Plane. It's the backstage of the universe, it's where all the things go that have nowhere else to go. That's where I'd put them.

There's also the second layer of Acheron, where broken and destroyed things often end up on, especially if they are weapons. That might also be appropriate for some items.