afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[Tzardok]

Officially they do, but it's only enforced if someone reports part of it. IIRC, at least.

Anyway, I'm interested and don't care much about the medium of conversation. Hit me up!

[enderlord99]

Anyway, I'm interested and don't care much about the medium of conversation. Hit me up!

Unfortunately, I forgot my original reasoning. I still stand by the conclusion, though; it feels intuitively accurate.

EDIT: Remembered most of it again. Email sent.

[Stardot]

Is it plausible for a cease-fire to be signed amongst the fiends? I know that they almost had one when the Mind Flayer Empire was at its height, but is that the only way for it to work? Would the Yugoloths want to help someone who seeks to accomplish this goal? Finally: Do you think it’s possible to be apart of Baatorian and Abyssal ‘royalty’ at the same time?

[Tzardok]

Is it plausible for a cease-fire to be signed amongst the fiends? I know that they almost had one when the Mind Flayer Empire was at its height, but is that the only way for it to work?

Thrice the Blood War was put on hold: The first time when celestials decided "Hey, all our enemies are in the same place; we could eradicate Evil in one swoop!", which resulted in both sides allying until the Hosts of Heaven were routed; the second time when both sides pulled back in preparation for a Mind Flayer invasion that never came; and the third time when the mysterious glyphs at the ground of Goresh Chasm were discovered and both sides tried to cooporate in deciffering them. It ended after roughly five minutes after a pit fiend and a balor had a disagreement over seating arrangements.

Would the Yugoloths want to help someone who seeks to accomplish this goal?

Never. The 'loth are of the opinion that the Blood War will end on their terms or not at all.

Finally: Do you think it’s possible to be apart of Baatorian and Abyssal ‘royalty’ at the same time?

I'll assume you mean "a part of", not "apart from", because that would be really, really easy.
The answer is no. You would have to be both a being of Chaos and of Law at the same time. The Abyss itself would rebell against you having any kind of power there otherwise, and though Baator would be a bit more willing to (grudgingly) suffer you if Asmodeus were to appoint you (like it did with the Witch Countess), there is no reason at all for Asmodeus to do that.

[afroakuma]

Huh, I thought it was closed on this side and only continues to persist on the other side because of the Far Realm's... non-existent relationship with time.

Gates of Firestorm Peak tell us it reopens periodically. Even if that adventure has been resolved, it definitely wasn't long enough ago to be related to Otiax.

Where was the far realm during the law chaos war, or even earlier? with the draeden wars. Was it always "outside" or did it form at some point and time from primal chaos or something else.

The Far Realm is unrelated to primal chaos. The Far Realm has no place in the multiverse. It is both before and after time, as it is apart from time.

Also what is the origin of the obyriths? I know the term protodemons but that seems like a misnomer considering they do not seem to be native of the primal chaos which spawned the abyss.

They are the firstborn of the Abyss, the original race of demonkind.

Is it plausible for a cease-fire to be signed amongst the fiends? I know that they almost had one when the Mind Flayer Empire was at its height, but is that the only way for it to work?

A functional cease-fire between the fiendish races is a near-total impossibility. Which is fortunate for everyone else. As noted above, they only did it three times in history, and it never lasted very long.

Would the Yugoloths want to help someone who seeks to accomplish this goal?

No. The yugoloths are mercenaries who profit quite substantially from the continuation of the Blood War. They plan to unite Evil under their banner at some far-flung point in the future, but they won't be indulging anyone else's schemes when that happens.

Finally: Do you think it’s possible to be apart of Baatorian and Abyssal ‘royalty’ at the same time?

It would take quite the substantial magic to successfully masquerate as both devil and demon. If you mean in the sense of openly and legitimately, then absolutely not.

[Tzardok]

I'm currently rereading the fourth thread and stumbled over this table you made for us back then. Is it still correct or did you change your opinion? Did I make a mistake when I added in the Aphanacts and the Slaadish (back then there were only question marks in those fields)? Are you finally ready to tell us what's supposed to be behind the black bar? Is there anything to know about the Aeons? What can you tell us about the Priminals besides "They brought the bounty of Good to the Baernoloth and the Baernoloth reacted by bringing them the bounty of Evil"?

	Ancient	Lawful	Neutral	Chaotic	Ancient
Ancient	Aeon		Priminal?		██████
Good		Archon	Guardinal	Eladrin
Neutral	(Aphanact)	Modron	Rilmani	Slaad	(Slaadish)
Evil		Baatezu	Yugoloth	Tana'ri
Ancient	Baatorian		Baernoloth		Obyrith

[enderlord99]

Is there anything to know about the Aeons?

Much like the Ancient Baatorians, they likely had DR/Chaotic.

EDIT: Slaadish is correct, but Aphanacts are (IIRC) not; AFAIK, that space is actually taken up by the "Primarch(s)" of which there only ever was one (the original Primus) and of which there are now zero because (post Orcus/Tenebrous debacle) the new Primus is a(/the) unique Modron.

I could be wildly off-base here, but the stuff before the edit is definitely accurate.

[Tzardok]

EDIT: Slaadish is correct, but Aphanacts are (IIRC) not; AFAIK, that space is actually taken up by the "Primarch(s)" of which there only ever was one (the original Primus) and of which there are now zero because (post Orcus/Tenebrous debacle) the new Primus is a(/the) unique Modron.

I on the other hand am quite sure that the Primus that was killed by Orcus wasn't the first one. Instead I believe that Primus dies and is replaced... not exactly like clockwork, but it happened often enough over the vast history of planes to make Orcus' little stunt not be considerably noteworthy.

[Edreyn]

Are there any other fiction books, by Planescape setting, except "Fire and dust"?
Fiction books for Pathfinder multiverse setting will also do.

[Thurbane]

According to this list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ragons_fiction

• Fire and Dust
• Blood Hostages
• Abyssal Warriors
• Pages of Pain
• Planar Powers
• Torment

[Edreyn]

Many thanks, I'll have a look.

[Eldan]

Pages of Pain is not recommended, I hear. It apparently tries to give the Lady of Pain a backstory, by making her part of the Greek Pantheon as a daughter of Poseidon, which is... utterly silly.

[Tzardok]

Another question: The Transitive Plane of Radiance. Do you think it has any kind of merit in the Planescape setting? If yes, where would it fit into the cosmology? It's supposed to be an equal and opposite to the Shadow; would that mean that it also connects to alternate multiverses?

[enderlord99]

Another question: The Transitive Plane of RadianceMirrors

I'm not sure if this altered quote counts as an answer, but if it does, it might and might not be the correct answer.

[Afghanistan]

I'm trying to think of a language to use for Far Realm denizens. Should I just use Undercommon? Or is Word Souper Salad the regional dialect?

If it is the latter, could you give me some example statements and their meaning/translations?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm trying to think of a language to use for Far Realm denizens. Should I just use Undercommon?

There's no particular reason they would use that, and a good reason they would not: it's an intelligible Great Wheel language. Far Realm denizens won't communicate in any intelligible way, not even with word salads. If they are sufficiently infected with Great Wheel structure to start making sense, they might communicate in any number of ways. Kaorti, for example, "speak their own guttural language and have picked up smatterings of many other languages".

[enderlord99]

I'm trying to think of a language to use for Far Realm denizens.

Don't bother.

[Bartmanhomer]

Is Vaprak The Troll Deity a popular deity?

[Sepultra]

So I've got some questions relating to Vestiges

1. What even are Vestiges? Best I can tell they're an extra-planar source of power that are outwith the influence of the Divine.

2. How much information would a vestige actually give about topics they had interest in during their life? Specifically Karsus. I'm playing a campaign right now and this may end up being incredibly important for my character.

3. Is there any way to revive vestiges? And I know that reviving Karsus is suicide given how much he pissed off the Gods. This one is unrelated to the campaign.

4. Would a vestige even *want* to stop being a Vestige? I assume that's a requirement for revival. It seems to be an incredibly nice position to hold.

And two questions unrelated to Vestiges:
1. What are the three times there was a truce between the Evil races? I know of one when they found a seal on one of the lower planes, but I don't know a great deal about what happened with that.
(I swear Google won't help me with this which is why I need to ask)

2. Given that Outsiders die when they're killed on the Prime, why do devils and demons return to their own plane? I feel like I'm getting something incredibly confused. (I'm really new to this stuff if you couldn't tell :) )

[Dalmosh]

Do Ygorl and Ssendam have cults on the Prime, and if so in what ways would such practice be noticably different from worshipping a Demon Lord? What sorts of goals would such cults pursue?

Are Ygorl and Ssendam themselves mostly Limbo focussed, or do they interact with the Prime and the Great Wheel in noticable or significant ways?

How do the Githzerai in general feel about these Powers?

Entropic Reapers, Death Slaadi and Black Slaadi seem somewhat aligned with Ygorl's portfolio. Are there Limbo natives that are especially aligned towards Ssendam's portfolio/will?

Are there any general statements that can be made about how Slaadi perceive these beings beyond "are powerful"? Do many slaadi actually revere or worship them?

What are the most complex social groupings Slaadi form? Do Slaadi make things, or just destroy them? What would be some examples of complex works of chaotic creation attributable to slaadi?

[Tzardok]

So I've got some questions relating to Vestiges

1. What even are Vestiges? Best I can tell they're an extra-planar source of power that are outwith the influence of the Divine.

Vestiges are not-beings that still manage to exist (or the other way round ). They are the... vestiges of things that aren't supposed to be around anymore: Mortals that were exiled from the afterlife in general, dead gods that refuse to die, primordial things that died and whose souls don't have a place in the Great Wheel anymore and so on. The not-reality where they "reside" is known as the Near Realm in this thread, the closest of the various kinds of not-reality to the Great Wheel.

2. How much information would a vestige actually give about topics they had interest in during their life? Specifically Karsus. I'm playing a campaign right now and this may end up being incredibly important for my character.

Depends on the vestige. Some vestiges are unable or unwilling to communicate. Others may be uninterested in anything but what you could do for them. I could imagine that Karsus at least would be willing to converse on topics of magic, but one shouldn't forget that vestiges are notoriously unreliable in what they say. If three different binders were to interogate the same vestige on its origins, they may get three different accounts, all of which may contradict commonly known history.

3. Is there any way to revive vestiges? And I know that reviving Karsus is suicide given how much he pissed off the Gods. This one is unrelated to the campaign.

Possibly, but very unlikely. It would be in my opinion even more difficult and idiosycratic than resurecting gods.

4. Would a vestige even *want* to stop being a Vestige? I assume that's a requirement for revival. It seems to be an incredibly nice position to hold.

It really isn't. Vestiges agree to let themselves be bound because they want to experience just a bit of reality. They want to feel a breeze, smell a flower, delight in whatever they loved in life (spilling blood, tricking people, gaining power, etc.), even if it's just second-hand through a binder. Resurection is infinitely preferable.

And two questions unrelated to Vestiges:
1. What are the three times there was a truce between the Evil races? I know of one when they found a seal on one of the lower planes, but I don't know a great deal about what happened with that.
(I swear Google won't help me with this which is why I need to ask)

Thrice the Blood War was put on hold: The first time when celestials decided "Hey, all our enemies are in the same place; we could eradicate Evil in one swoop!", which resulted in both sides allying until the Hosts of Heaven were routed; the second time when both sides pulled back in preparation for a Mind Flayer invasion that never came; and the third time when the mysterious glyphs at the ground of Goresh Chasm were discovered and both sides tried to cooporate in deciffering them. It ended after roughly five minutes after a pit fiend and a balor had a disagreement over seating arrangements.

Do Ygorl and Ssendam have cults on the Prime, and if so in what ways would such practice be noticably different from worshipping a Demon Lord? What sorts of goals would such cults pursue?

Quote from Afro in the fourth thread:

There aren't documented cultists of the Slaad Lords. It's easy enough to guess what their domains would be, though - Chaos, obviously, Madness for Ssendam, Destruction for Ygorl, possibly Trickery for either or both.

[Eldan]

I like to think of vestiges as echoes. It's not entirely canon, but my idea of them is that they are basically stories or characters that are powerful enough that even when they are utterly obliterated from the multiverse, they just sort of live on as an archetype. Not exactly sentient, just an impression that acts in a certain way and has some power.

I also like to put them in the astral plane, not the far realm, but that's just me. Actually, I put a lot of far realm stuff in the astral plane, I prefer my astral plane to be Lovecraftian and weird.

[Svata]

No one said Vestiges were in the Far Realm.

[Sepultra]

Vestiges are not-beings that still manage to exist (or the other way round ). They are the... vestiges of things that aren't supposed to be around anymore: Mortals that were exiled from the afterlife in general, dead gods that refuse to die, primordial things that died and whose souls don't have a place in the Great Wheel anymore and so on. The not-reality where they "reside" is known as the Near Realm in this thread, the closest of the various kinds of not-reality to the Great Wheel.



Depends on the vestige. Some vestiges are unable or unwilling to communicate. Others may be uninterested in anything but what you could do for them. I could imagine that Karsus at least would be willing to converse on topics of magic, but one shouldn't forget that vestiges are notoriously unreliable in what they say. If three different binders were to interogate the same vestige on its origins, they may get three different accounts, all of which may contradict commonly known history.



Possibly, but very unlikely. It would be in my opinion even more difficult and idiosycratic than resurecting gods.



It really isn't. Vestiges agree to let themselves be bound because they want to experience just a bit of reality. They want to feel a breeze, smell a flower, delight in whatever they loved in life (spilling blood, tricking people, gaining power, etc.), even if it's just second-hand through a binder. Resurection is infinitely preferable.

Thanks a lot. This was all really interesting.

So, what are the other kinds of "not reality" that are at least known about even if by only a few?

Also how to Gods see vestiges and binders? It's something that doesn't seem so clear cut given that Gods don't appear to have any influence over vestiges at all.
And is there a power threshold that needs to be crossed to become a vestige or are there others that are much weaker than those listed in ToM who just not-exist in their non-reality without any contact?

Ah, and speaking of Illithid: Why do Illithid believe that their souls merge with the Elder Brain upon death and do they?

Edit: Meant to ask why vestiges are so unreliable in the information they give and if there's any way to circumvent this? I had assumed that they'd be willing to discuss things with mortals who were willing to pay a price and your answer to whether or not they'd want to be revived seems to reinforce this heavily, so why would they deliberately **** with people who try to converse with them on topics they cared so much for in life? Such as Magic with Karsus.

Also how did Vecna manage to exist inside Sigil with enough power to stop the Lady tearing him from existence like a certain God of Portals whose name we don't want to mention? I don't really understand what happened there at all. Maybe I'm just not reading something that explains it well

[Tzardok]

Thanks a lot. This was all really interesting.

So, what are the other kinds of "not reality" that are at least known about even if by only a few?

Besides the Near Realm we aknowledge two others in this thread: the Vast Medium, which is Afro's term for the "void" between cosmologies, and the Far Realms, the only canonical (or at least canonically named) one of the three, an inconceivable anti-reality whose pure touch is toxic to our reality (and the other way round, too).

Also how to Gods see vestiges and binders? It's something that doesn't seem so clear cut given that Gods don't appear to have any influence over vestiges at all.

Oh, it's very clear cut because deities have no power over vestiges. The gods are disturbed by them. They can't perceive them at all. All religions demonize binders for "tracking with powers beyond mortal ken" and "surrendering their souls to unnatural abominations". Besides that there are quite a few vestiges whom the gods are angry with (Andras, for example) or fearful of (Chupoclops was a real terror).

And is there a power threshold that needs to be crossed to become a vestige or are there others that are much weaker than those listed in ToM who just not-exist in their non-reality without any contact?

Don't think so. Power before vestigification doesn't seem to have much of an influence on power afterwards. Amon, for example, used to be god, but now is a level 1 vestige. Marchosias on the other hand died as a soul in hell, which are par definitionem bound and powerless, but now he's level 7. Fact is that every single vestige is a unique case, a cosmological accident. It is highly unlikely that just going through the same motions will make you another Acererak.

Ah, and speaking of Illithid: Why do Illithid believe that their souls merge with the Elder Brain upon death and do they?

They don't. Their memories and knowledge, on the other hand, does. As for why they believe it... *shrug* Maybe it's a deliberate lie by the Elder Brains to make them easier to control?

Edit: Meant to ask why vestiges are so unreliable in the information they give and if there's any way to circumvent this? I had assumed that they'd be willing to discuss things with mortals who were willing to pay a price and your answer to whether or not they'd want to be revived seems to reinforce this heavily, so why would they deliberately **** with people who try to converse with them on topics they cared so much for in life? Such as Magic with Karsus.

Clouded memories. Buer is one of the biggest cases; her accounts of her origin always make her out to be a female being with a connection to nature that was slain by a magical being of nature, but the details change every time. Others, like Naberius, explicitely take joy in fooling people or simply grinning suggestively. I personally believe that it has something to do with being well-known in the first place: No one remembers what god Amon used to be, so he can't or won't tell for sure, while Geryon's story is widespread in the planes, so his retellings will have only a bit of variance.

Also how did Vecna manage to exist inside Sigil with enough power to stop the Lady tearing him from existence like a certain God of Portals whose name we don't want to mention? I don't really understand what happened there at all. Maybe I'm just not reading something that explains it well

Part of it was Vecna essentially ascending to his full godhood inside of Sigil; through that he was a greater deity that was fully in Sigil with no connections to the outside which the Lady could have exploited to excise him. When she noticed him being entrenched, it was too late to kill him without her doing even more damage, so she gave the job to adventurers. What I don't understand is why Aoskar's presence in Sigil wasn't as damaging as Vecna's.

[Efrate]

Aoskars portfolio was portals of which there are tons in sigil. My guess is there is some feedback from having one of the things you directly reside over surroinding you that creates a feedback loop, like how most divine realms reflect the characteristics of their gods. Aoskars belonged in sigil because it was similar to what his divine realm would have been. Power flowed between them and he was integrated.

The amount of death and such Vecna needed was not a part of the landscape so he tried to make it so and it did not go well.

[Bronk]

Also how did Vecna manage to exist inside Sigil with enough power to stop the Lady tearing him from existence like a certain God of Portals whose name we don't want to mention? I don't really understand what happened there at all. Maybe I'm just not reading something that explains it well

Evidently he cheated...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=260

[Cieyrin]

The Xill have been kicking around the Ethereal Plane since 1st Edition but do they do anything significant other than be enslaving pirates looking for hosts for new Xill? They have enmity with phase spiders and night hags, from what I understand, but that's like all I can dig up on them.

[Brookshw]

Pages of Pain is not recommended, I hear. It apparently tries to give the Lady of Pain a backstory, by making her part of the Greek Pantheon as a daughter of Poseidon, which is... utterly silly.

It most certainly is NOT recommended, and I'll say that by first hand account. I believe when I mentioned reading it to Afro, his response was something to the effect of "sucker". It's terrible, don't bother.

Also how did Vecna manage to exist inside Sigil with enough power to stop the Lady tearing him from existence like a certain God of Portals whose name we don't want to mention? I don't really understand what happened there at all. Maybe I'm just not reading something that explains it well

Vecna used a loophole to ascend to godhood inside Sigil, thereby bypassing the prohibition against deities entering the city. Don't be fooled into believing he had the power to stop the Lady from tearing him from existence (well, killing him at least). As established in the relevant module, she absolutely had the power; the issue was that in exercising it she would have had to power up to a degree which would have caused damage to the the cosmos, a result she decided to avoid.

...i.e., Vecna got lucky because the Lady didn't want to deal with the collateral damage taking him out would have resulted in.

[Quietus]

I'm concerned that the thrust of your questions suggests a misunderstanding of what the Far Realm is. Traveling to the Far Realm isn't like traveling to Hell, or Weird Hell, or Weird Lovecraftian Hell. Traveling to the Far Realm is like fully immersing yourself in soup, except the soup is made of acid and insanity. You can't walk on soup, you can't talk in soup, you can't see in soup, you can swim in it but your destination is either "different section of soup" or "other thing floating in soup," and also the soup is still cooking at full boil so you will die and the other things floating in it are also already dead or insane. It's not a "place." It's quite specifically an "unplace."

Unfortunately, you are entirely correct. My only exposure to the Far Realms was the Manual of the Planes, and the idea of "That's where aberrations come from". My conceptualisation was therefore that while it was hostile to Prime life, it wasn't immediately brain-rendingly so, and that one could at least exist there even if only briefly. Between the answers I have received here, and having read through all references to the Far Realms in thread three (off of the mention of Otiax there), it's become clear that my previous conception does not fit with what it is actually supposed to be. Which leaves me in a tight spot, as I have already written myself into a corner and established a tear to the Far Realms in my home game and established plot points pointing directly to it.

Thank you, and everyone else who has responded to my questions! I've gained a little more insight, picked up a couple of ideas I can use, and now need to decide whether to lean into things and play it off as a "weirder than normal astral/ethereal", or find a way to cut and run. I get the clear impression this thread is not the place to begin speculating on what is likely to become wildly-divergent ideas for my game, so I'll simply step back and be glad I never asked about the interactions of deific figures and the far realms together.

I suppose one further question - in looking back, I found your "Expedition to the Far Realms" writing. The last I could find was in thread five, and involved the group entering what sounded awfully like a tear in existence. Is there more that I've missed, or did you stop there because of the inherent inability to describe the Far Realms?