A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Tiers for Dark Sun Classes?

    A few months ago, I was looking into a (3.5) Dark Sun game as a newcomer to the Dark Sun setting, so naturally I looked up all the resources I could find. In this way I found a 2008 3.5 web supplement (credited to one Steven James and co.) updating Athas to the then new edition, and was very surprised to find a number of changes to certain core classes (the Bard, which gains several new mostly poison-centric abilities, and the Rogue, which gains some new options so as to effectively serve as a replacement for the 2e Trader class), as well as two entirely new base classes - the Gladiator and the Templar. I was curious as to where these would fall on a tier scale - and not the "re-tiering the X" thread tier scale, but the good old classic tier system as first posited, since I'm rather slow to catch up. I typically rebalance by tier, and I quite like the Dark Sun classes flavor-wise and find them reasonably adaptable/setting-agnostic for my tastes, so if anyone who also has the web supplement could weigh in on tiering the Gladiator, Templar, and Athasian Bard and Rogue, it would be greatly appreciated!
    Last edited by DontEvenAsk; 2017-06-20 at 10:51 AM.
    DontEvenAsk, no apostrophe. I play D&D 3.X/PF, and some 5e. Life has a tendency to spring surprise problems on me, leading to temporary ghosting that I usually can't predict. If I vanish, I'm probably not dropping out if your game, just swamped.

    My campaign setting. Please look, don't touch for now.

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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Tiers for Dark Sun Classes?

    Can you link to this web supplement? Seeing the exact text would help considerably with gauging their power.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tiers for Dark Sun Classes?

    I'd recommend using the materials from Athas.org. The main book is Dark Sun 3, and is for 3.5 and quite extensive. It does have the classes you mentioned. The Athasian Bard is probably tier 5, the Templar is tier 3 and uses Beguiler style casting, the Gladiator is probably tier 5.

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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Tiers for Dark Sun Classes?

    Are there links on that site to the actual classes (Templar and Gladiator) being discussed? I'm seeing a lot of links to the 4e books and not much else.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tiers for Dark Sun Classes?

    Right here. That's the main PDF that has the classes and general setting information in it. In retrospect the Bard is a lot better than I remember it being, I DMed a campaign with an Athasian Bard that only ever used poison, but they still have Bardic Music and some nice skill monkey stuff, and a really good chassis. It's probably a low tier 3.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tiers for Dark Sun Classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Are there links on that site to the actual classes (Templar and Gladiator) being discussed? I'm seeing a lot of links to the 4e books and not much else.
    Yes, click on the DARK SUN 3 link, then under files click on ds3.20030717.pdf (its the top link)

    and open the PDF :0

    The bard is most likely tier5/4 is like a rouge with poison random knowledge things and no sneak attack

    the gladiator is tier 5. its basically a fighter with combat focused abilities that are not that overwhelming

    the Templar is tier 2.. it does not use beguiler style casting it has a list of spells known with an additional one that is akin to a cleric's domain spell. PLUS their secular authority class feature is pretty SWEET!

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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Tiers for Dark Sun Classes?

    Thanks.

    Ehhhh... Athas Bards have music but lose their spellcasting, in exchange for some poison-related stuff, and poison sucks. I'd drop them to 4.

    I agree Gladiator is T5, you trade your bonus feats for a fixed list and some minor short-duration buffs. 4+Int skills with Spot and Tumble is nice though.

    Templar spontaneously casts from a 9th-level list, from which they automatically know every spell. It's not a great list, but I haven't read all the new spells on it either.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tiers for Dark Sun Classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    Yes, click on the DARK SUN 3 link, then under files click on ds3.20030717.pdf (its the top link)
    You're using the wrong PDF. You want to download DS3_r7.pdf It's the updated version of the core Dark sun book. It was updated in 2008.

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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Tiers for Dark Sun Classes?

    Yeah, sorry about that, y'all - I wasn't sure if that supplement was allowed to link to by forum rules, and at any rate I don't actually know where it was located - I downloaded it off the Google search page. I am, alas, a rank beginner about this whole setting.

    Edit: Eldaran is correct; the file is DS3_r7.

    Let's see...

    • Bard Tally: Tier 5, Tier 3, Tier 4/5, Tier 4; average being 4.2.
    • Gladiator Tally: Tier 5, Tier 5, Tier 5. No disagreement there.
    • Templar Tally: Tier 3, Tier 2. Looking like high Tier 3 or low Tier 2, but this one has the fewest votes (I'm not sure when this became a voting thing in my head, but apparently it is now), so I'm wary of calling this sample representative.

    If any object to these assessments, go ahead and roast 'em, should you so desire.

    Gotta disagree with you about Secular Authority, ngilop, considering it only works in one city-state per Templar, but the spellcasting is the key point here, so I shan't seek argument on the feat.
    Last edited by DontEvenAsk; 2017-06-22 at 11:05 AM.
    DontEvenAsk, no apostrophe. I play D&D 3.X/PF, and some 5e. Life has a tendency to spring surprise problems on me, leading to temporary ghosting that I usually can't predict. If I vanish, I'm probably not dropping out if your game, just swamped.

    My campaign setting. Please look, don't touch for now.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tiers for Dark Sun Classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by DontEvenAsk View Post
    Yeah, sorry about that, y'all - I wasn't sure if that supplement was allowed to link to by forum rules, and at any rate I don't actually know where it was located - I downloaded it off the Google search page. I am, alas, a rank beginner about this whole setting.
    Athas.org was actually the official Dark Sun website for 3.0 and 3.5, though once WotC started supporting Dark Sun again in 4e, I think that changed. There's a ton of great content on there for Dark Sun, like two books of prestige classes and some epic stuff.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Tiers for Dark Sun Classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldaran View Post
    Athas.org was actually the official Dark Sun website for 3.0 and 3.5, though once WotC started supporting Dark Sun again in 4e, I think that changed. There's a ton of great content on there for Dark Sun, like two books of prestige classes and some epic stuff.


    DontEvenAsk, no apostrophe. I play D&D 3.X/PF, and some 5e. Life has a tendency to spring surprise problems on me, leading to temporary ghosting that I usually can't predict. If I vanish, I'm probably not dropping out if your game, just swamped.

    My campaign setting. Please look, don't touch for now.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tiers for Dark Sun Classes?

    Templar looks like a T3 to me.
    No DM is ever truly out of tricks to mess with his/her players.
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