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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Revamped Wizard, Take 2 (the class)

    Here's a revision of my holistic spellcaster class. Last time the consensus seemed to be that it had too many drawbacks, so I've removed most of them. I've highlighted the subtler changes from the 3.5 wizard.

    Divine feats here.
    Arcane feats (part one) here.
    Arcane feats (part two) here.
    Miscellaneous feats.

    Wizard


    Alignment
    Any.

    Hit Die
    d4.

    Class Skills
    The wizard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Perform (illusions) (Cha)*, Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

    *A wizard that makes a Perform (illusions) check must cast at least one illusion spell (or prestidigitation) during the performance. She gains an untyped bonus on the check equal to the highest spell level amongst the spells she cast during the performance.

    Skill Points at 1st Level
    (4 + Int modifier) ×4.

    Skill Points at Each Additional Level
    4 + Int modifier.

    Table: The Wizard
    Level BAB Fort
    Save
    Ref
    Save
    Will
    Save
    Special Magic Points/Day Maximum Spell Level Known
    1st +0 +0 +0 +0
    Willpower 2 1st
    2nd +1 +0 +0 +0
    4 1st
    3rd +1 +1 +1 +1 7 1st
    4th +2 +1 +1 +1 11 2nd
    5th +2 +1 +1 +1
    16 2nd
    6th +3 +2 +2 +2
    24 3rd
    7th +3 +2 +2 +2
    33 3rd
    8th +4 +2 +2 +2
    44 4th
    9th +4 +3 +3 +3 56 4th
    10th +5 +3 +3 +3
    72 5th
    11th +5 +3 +3 +3
    88 5th
    12th +6/+1 +4 +4 +4 104 6th
    13th +6/+1 +4 +4 +4 120 6th
    14th +7/+2 +4 +4 +4 136 7th
    15th +7/+2 +5 +5 +5 152 7th
    16th +8/+3 +5 +5 +5 168 8th
    17th +8/+3 +5 +5 +5 184 8th
    18th +9/+4 +6 +6 +6 200 9th
    19th +9/+4 +6 +6 +6 216 9th
    20th +10/+5 +6 +6 +6
    232 9th

    Class Features
    All of the following are class features of the wizard.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    Wizards are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but not with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a wizard’s movements; a wizard who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on Concentration checks while casting a spell.

    Spells
    A wizard casts spells which are drawn from the master spell list. She can cast any spell she has memorised, and may also cast ritual spells (see Spellbook and Spells Known, below).
    Spoiler: Note
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    The master spell list is all 3.5. spell lists combined. If a spell appears at different levels on different 3.5 spell lists, use the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order. If a spell requires a divine focus the wizard must provide one but need not use one of a particular deity unless they have a [Divine] feat (in which case they must use a divine focus corresponding to their deity or deities).
    Note also that wizards don't have to prepare spells in advance.

    To learn or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Charisma modifier.

    To cast a spell a wizard must spend magic points equal to the minimum wizard level needed to know that spell (e.g. 6 magic points for a 3rd-level spell). Cantrips cost 0 magic points.

    A wizard's caster level is equal to their class level plus one-half their levels in all other classes plus their Charisma modifier.

    Magic Points/Day
    A wizard’s ability to cast spells is limited by the magic points he has available. His base daily allotment of magic points is given on Table: The Wizard, above. In addition, he receives bonus magic points per day if he has a high Wisdom score (see Table: Bonus Magic Points, below). His race may also provide bonus magic points per day, as may certain feats and items.

    A wizard automatically regains magic points equal to their Wisdom modifier every hour, and completely regains their total magic points after 8 hours of rest.

    Table: Bonus Magic Points
    Wis Score
    Bonus Magic Points (by Maximum Spell Level)
    0th
    1st
    2nd
    3rd
    4th
    5th
    6th
    7th
    8th
    9th
    12-13
    1
    1
    1
    1
    1
    1
    1
    1
    1
    14-15
    1
    4
    4
    4
    4
    4
    4
    4
    4
    16-17
    1
    4
    9
    9
    9
    9
    9
    9
    9
    18-19
    1
    4
    9
    16
    16
    16
    16
    16
    16
    20-21
    2
    5
    10
    17
    26
    26
    26
    26
    26
    22-23
    2
    8
    13
    20
    29
    40
    40
    40
    40
    24-25
    2
    8
    18
    25
    34
    45
    58
    58
    58
    26-27
    2
    8
    18
    32
    41
    52
    65
    80
    80
    28-29
    3
    9
    19
    33
    51
    62
    75
    90
    107
    30-31
    3
    12
    22
    36
    54
    76
    89
    104
    121
    32-33
    3
    12
    24
    38
    56
    78
    104
    119
    136
    34-35
    3
    12
    27
    48
    66
    88
    114
    144
    161
    36-37
    4
    13
    28
    49
    76
    98
    124
    154
    188
    38-39
    4
    16
    31
    52
    77
    110
    136
    166
    200
    40-41
    4
    16
    36
    57
    84
    117
    156
    186
    220
    42-43
    4
    16
    36
    64
    91
    124
    163
    208
    242
    44-45
    5
    17
    37
    65
    101
    134
    173
    218
    269
    46-47
    5
    20
    40
    68
    104
    148
    187
    232
    283
    48-49
    5
    20
    45
    73
    109
    153
    205
    250
    301
    50-51
    5
    20
    45
    80
    116
    160
    212
    272
    323

    Spellbook and Spells Known
    All of a wizard's spells known must be inscribed in their spellbook. Thereafter they are divided into memorised spells and ritual spells.

    Spellbook: A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level spells but no others. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own, or research her own spells. A wizard does not gain any spells when leveling up. There is no limit to how many spellbooks (and corresponding inscribed spells) a wizard may accumulate.

    Memorised Spells: These are spells that a wizard has committed to memory. A wizard may memorise a number of spells of each level she can cast equal to her Intelligence modifier, and thereafter may cast them freely without referring to her spellbook. She may replace a memorised spell with a different one from her spellbook by studying her spellbook for one day per level of the spells to be exchanged.

    Ritual Spell: Wizards can cast spells directly from their spellbooks without having them memorised, but the process is a lengthy and painstaking ritual. For spells with a base casting time of less than one hour, a ritual to cast that spell requires one hour per spell level. For spells with a base casting time greater than one hour, multiply the casting time by the spell level to see how long the ritual will take. A wizard must spend twice the usual number of magic points when casting a spell as a ritual, and their spellbook becomes an additional focus component required by the spell during the ritual. All other requirements and effects of a spell cast as a ritual are unchanged.

    Willpower (Su)
    A wizard's magical might sometimes exceeds the rituals and formulae of spells to become expressions of pure supernatural Willpower. A wizard may gains a number of uses of Willpower per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. Willpower is used to activate various [Arcane] and [Divine] feats, as well as to perform counterspells.

    Counterspell: A wizard is adept at countering spells as well as casting them. When a wizard identifies an enemy's spell as it is being cast (via a successful Spellcraft check), she may attempt to counter that spell as an immediate action. She must spend one of her daily uses of Willpower as well as magic points equal to the cost of the spell to be countered, and then make an opposed caster level check (rolling 1d20 + caster level) against the enemy spellcaster. She automatically wins this check unless the enemy spellcaster also spends a use of Willpower, in which case both she and the enemy spellcaster may spend any number of spell points to gain a +1 bonus on their check for each spell point they spend in this way. If the enemy spellcaster wins the check the spell is successfully cast, but if they fail the spell is countered and dissipates with no effect.

    A wizard with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (arcana) gets a +2 bonus on opposed caster level checks to counter spells.
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-07-03 at 03:05 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Revamped Wizard, Take 2

    Rationale
    Note that this class is intended to replace all primary spellcasters. It's futile for me to hope that this wizard isn't a high-tier class, but perhaps it's not quite as beyond the fighter etc. as the current tier 1 & 2 classes?

    Skills
    Heal because wizards (especially clerics, druids, and necromancers) should understand the inner workings of living things. Sense Motive, Speak Language, and a social skill because wizards should be hard to fool and adept at persuading/tricking/terrifying others according to their alignment. Use Magic Device because even 3.5 wizards should have it!!!!!

    Saves
    Fiction is replete with powerful magic users who were corrupted by supernatural forces - Saruman (Lord of the Rings), Lorac (Dragonlance), Willow (Buffy the Vampire Slayer), etc., etc. A wizard has to rely on their wisdom for Will saves, they don't get any special protection by virtue of their class.

    Magic Points
    Using this variant because Vancian casting (although a classic for a reason) isn't very intuitive outside of D&D. I orginally had psionicist magic point totals but have toned them down; could be toned down even to Bard totals depending on if people think it's too powerful.

    Armor
    The Concentration penalty is considerably less harsh than arcane spell failure, and if you multiclass (which should be encouraged) even that penalty is overcome.

    Multiple Ability Dependent
    I tried to make each mental ability score essential for the class, how'd I do?

    Master Spell List
    ALLLLLL SPELLS! This is the main attraction of this class, countered by the MADness, the poor saves, and the stingy spell allotment. When you remember that you're still limited by the action economy, I think in practice this class isn't much more powerful than the standard tier 1 classes.

    Wisdom (reduction for magic point costs, and for regaining magic points)
    I need everyone's opinion on these! Is the cost reduction too good? Is the point regeneration lacking? I'm tempted to make the point regeneration work like natural healing i.e. regain only 1 point per character level per day, then make a feat that increases that regenerationto every hour/minute/round even.

    Caster Level
    Even other classes contribute to this, to encourage multiclassing. Should it be more generous (3/4 of non-wizard levels), or even full caster level = character level?

    Spellbook
    Note that you don't get the three free 1st-level spells at character creation, only cantrips. Nor do you get two free spells each level -you have to research or purchase/loot all your spells or obtain them through the feats I'll be posting later.

    Memorised and Ritual Spells
    As spontaneous as a sorcerer, but almost as versatile as a 3.5 wizard (though it takes you much longer to switch your spell selection).

    Sagacity
    Wizards should be knowledgeable; these points free up your base skill points for the extra class skills I assigned. Even primitive shamans should have plenty of ranks of Knowledge (arcana, nature, religion, the planes), to better prepare their tribes against supernatural threats.

    Willpower and Counterspelling
    An easier and more viable mechanic than the current counterspelling, plus willpower attempts will be used to fuel the feats I'll be posting (e.g. for turning undead, rebuking outsiders, using Saruman's Voice, etc.).
    n.b. With respect to dispel magic/greater dispel magic... they can still be used to counterspell (circumventing your limit of Willpower uses per day) but 1) you have to spend their base magic point cost, plus the cost of the spell to be counterspelled and 2) they have a limit on your caster level, so you'll have to pump even more magic points in to boost your opposed level check.
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-06-28 at 04:20 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Revamped Wizard, Take 2 (the class)

    In the games I run, using Custom Characters, I use a very similar system, and it works great. The only difference is that magic is split up under Spellcraft, so there's Spellcraft (Universal) that is required to learn any of the other schools of magic by spending a skill point to gain a 'caster level' of a particular school. This also forces players to specialize in what they can cast.

    I like the Wisdom spell point (mana) regeneration / hour, though you would be justified if making it a transition to per hour by feat.

    The accessibility to all spells is great, and you're right about action economy. I describe it like this: Different casters have different "traditions" to cast their spells, and hence some 'classes' gain the same spell at different spell levels. But this also inclines a character to look for the right person to learn a particular spell so they don't have to keep casting the same spell at a higher level and therefore cost. This should also bring out some role-play opportunities as the character should always be talking to ANYONE that they think can teach them a new spell...

    And that brings me to the cost of spells. I understand why you went with the cost of a spell being equal to the level that a character would normally gain access to that level of spell, but I much prefer using one point per spell level to keep it a bit more simple. I set a limit on the number of spells that are 'memorized' that are chosen once, and with 15 minutes of study, they can change out one spell for another of the same level. They can only have a number of spells memorized in each level equal to their Intelligence modifier.

    I like the option to cast spells as rituals.

    Access to that kind of spell list makes me drool to be a better artificer.... then again, the Psionic Artificer can be Tier 0 according to some sources.

    I would suggest increasing the number of Magic Points/Spell Points/Mana to be equal to a Psion.

    The Counterspelling ability using Willpower (I thought it odd that you would use Charisma to determine number of uses per day instead of Wisdom, but I do understand you're trying to make this class MAD...) shouldn't require the initial Mana (Spell Point) cost, but the bonus from spending additional Mana should be kept. The use of Willpower shouldn't force you to spend Mana, at least in my opinion. The rest of how the ability works I feel looks like a great idea, and can't wait to try it out in my own games!

    Making a player invest in mental stats is great! though you might find it difficult having that player play a character that's as smart or wise, or even charismatic as the character actually is...

    The skill inclusions you make are the right choices. Wizards should have always had Use Magic Device. Not knowing how to take care of physical woulds doesn't make much sense to me either, so nice inclusion. With dealing with people as much as this variation is likely to be doing, being able to Sense Motive is a great trait, as is the ability to learn new languages too, especially with the amount of books their going to be going through trying to find new magic!

    I like the way you included the concentration amendment when wearing armor that you're not proficient with, and that being removed altogether if you're proficient with the armor you're wearing.

    I would suggest that you think about having a capstone ability... something along the lines of "One with Power" that describes how the character has actually become so infused with the different kinds of magic that they have learned to become virtually "immortal". They can still be killed, but an automatic effect that brings them back in a week that can be used once a year or some such.

    You might consider some Feats that grant abilities like classes that require a specific level they can be taken. For example: Turn & Rebuke Undead, requrires level 5, and healing / harming spells learned, or that you have an Aura, that was learned as a Feat at level 3...

    That makes me think this class should have some extra feats...

    Sagacity is a great idea, though I feel a few people might not like it that much.

    Maybe at level 10 it can start to pick up some psionic tricks... lol sorry, I'll stop drooling and making a wish list XD
    Last edited by AOKost; 2017-07-03 at 05:24 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Ziegander's Avatar

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    Default Re: Revamped Wizard, Take 2 (the class)

    The cost reduction from Wisdom seems like an awful idea. Casting 2nd and 3rd level spells for 1 MP as soon as you get them is possible and makes me uncomfortable. Though I actually really like that you don't automatically add spells to your spellbook as you gain levels.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Revamped Wizard, Take 2 (the class)

    AOKost - thanks for the very detailed reply!

    I agree that the MP costs are simpler if they just equal spell level, but I assume the spell point variant and psionics are more balanced (as they're official material and therefore have been playtested etc.)

    I originally had the psion magic point totals but bumped it down to this; lt's see if more people agree with you about bumping it back up.

    Counterspelling- I based Willpower off of Charisma to 1) emulate turn undead attempts/day (which as you saw in the other thread is a recurring theme) and 2) because Charisma is meant to be force of personality (see Charisma-based save DCs of monsters) whereas Wisdom is more resistance to such forces (see Will saves, Sense Motive, etc.), though I admit the flavour can be interpreted in other ways. Since Willpower is about exerting your will on other creatures/spells I felt Charisma worked better - the name could be changed of course though! I agree with you that maybe spending Willpower is a sufficient price without also spending the spell's cost in MP

    Capstone abilities are tricky - your idea is great but this class is meant to be open ended (in that one player can build it into a tyrannous Arch-Necromancer, another into a pious High Priest, etc.) It's hard to think of one capstone that fits all the options (except maybe simple immortality/immunity to old age along the lines of your idea).

    You saw the thread of divine feats, rest assured more class abilities in feat form are to come! :)

    I actually think Sagacity might be overpowered now - the specialist wizard feats I'll be posting soon require ranks in various knowledge skills and those requirements are negated by all the free skill points that Sagacity gives. Imight reduce it to 2 skill points per level, or 1, or remove it entirely.

    Thanks again for the feedback!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    The cost reduction from Wisdom seems like an awful idea. Casting 2nd and 3rd level spells for 1 MP as soon as you get them is possible and makes me uncomfortable. Though I actually really like that you don't automatically add spells to your spellbook as you gain levels.
    Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you (as mentioned in the other thread). Even without spellcasting bonuses I think wisdom is too powerful in this system... I may have to remove the Cha bonus to caster level as well.
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-06-29 at 04:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Revamped Wizard, Take 2 (the class)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    AOKost - thanks for the very detailed reply!
    I actually think Sagacity might be overpowered now - the specialist wizard feats I'll be posting soon require ranks in various knowledge skills and those requirements are negated by all the free skill points that Sagacity gives. Imight reduce it to 2 skill points per level, or 1, or remove it entirely.

    Thanks again for the feedback!



    Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you (as mentioned in the other thread). Even without spellcasting bonuses I think wisdom is too powerful in this system... I may have to remove the Cha bonus to caster level as well.
    I like the thematic aspect of Sagicity. Maybe make it into a Feat that requires Wizard level 4...

    I really like the idea of using Wisdom bonus to reduce the cost of spells. Maybe reduce the amount it reduces to 1/2 or 1/3 of the total modifier bonus is used to subtract from the total cost. Even though this ability has a huge impact on lower level spells, it has much less effect on higher level spells though it does still increase the number of spells cast per day. If you use the suggest costs, then that will change many aspects of what you can do with metamagic and other effects. I personally like the idea of a Wizard being able to use their lower level spells more freely, and much more ably. Some might see this as OP but I don't at all. It helps Wizards keep up with Fighters at lower levels, and gives more options overall, though some might say that's exactly what makes magic users 'fair' at lower levels since they are so powerful at higher levels...

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Revamped Wizard, Take 2 (the class)

    I just edited Sagacity down to 2 skill points, though the idea of making it a feat too is very attractive.

    I've thought about Wisdom cost reduction but have decided to remove it entirely. You're right in that it's immaterial at high levels, but at low levels there's already the point regeneration so wizards should never be fully running on empty. Ziegander made a good point about spells getting too cheap too quickly - I like your fractional Wis modifier reduction idea but I think that'll get pretty complex pretty quickly (and this class is already a headache, as evidenced by all the feats :D).

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    Default Re: Revamped Wizard, Take 2 (the class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
    The cost reduction from Wisdom seems like an awful idea. Casting 2nd and 3rd level spells for 1 MP as soon as you get them is possible and makes me uncomfortable. Though I actually really like that you don't automatically add spells to your spellbook as you gain levels.
    I second that motion.
    Twenty 9th level spells a day at level 18 (easily achievable) is disproportional by any standard.
    The same goes for practically any SL (at any level) your Wizard gains access to.

    In the second spoiler here, I suggest a spellpoints-system that keeps spellcasters at a reasonable level of power. If you incorporate your suggestion for hourly spellpoints recovery - capped by Wizard-level - this could work decently.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Revamped Wizard, Take 2 (the class)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I second that motion.
    Twenty 9th level spells a day at level 18 (easily achievable) is disproportional by any standard.
    The same goes for practically any SL (at any level) your Wizard gains access to.

    In the second spoiler here, I suggest a spellpoints-system that keeps spellcasters at a reasonable level of power. If you incorporate your suggestion for hourly spellpoints recovery - capped by Wizard-level - this could work decently.
    I've removed the cost reduction. Your system looks nifty too, I'll think about editing it in.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Revamped Wizard, Take 2 (the class)

    Changes:

    1) Added the social skills flat-out rather than giving a choice of one of them. Added Perform (illusions)

    2) Removed Sagacity and made it into a feat in the miscellaneous feats thread.

    3) Bumped up skill points; Intelligence is probably still the most important stat for the class but given that the Arcane and Divine feats all have skill taxes I felt they needed some extra help with skill points.

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