A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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    Giant in the Playground Administrator
     
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    furious OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    New comic is up.
    Rich Burlew


    A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2, the sixth set of monster miniatures for your tabletop game—now including digital tokens to use in your favorite virtual tabletop. Available from Gumroad!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Who is the frost giant guy name again?

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    Post Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Hel and Thrymm are a fun bickering couple.

    Poor Hel DID get screwed, but she didn't really think that bet through. Always read the fine print.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yklikt View Post
    Who is the frost giant guy name again?
    No. Who is the first baseman's name.
    Last edited by Czhorat; 2017-07-17 at 08:02 AM. Reason: Reviving vaudeville

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Huh, ok. So the "no clerics among the living" thing actually is part of the bet, and not just a result of Hel being awful. Well OK then.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Czhorat View Post
    Poor Hel DID get screwed
    That's what happens if you are content with the scraps other throw you. People - and especially gods of trickery - never offer you their best voluntarily.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Czhorat View Post
    Hel and Thrymm are a fun bickering couple.

    Poor Hel DID get screwed, but she didn't really think that bet through. Always read the fine print.

    No. Who is the first baseman's name.
    Um, what? Is thrymm his name? Because I can't find comic where she say his name

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    One of the main arguments in Hel's favor in the past few threads was "ah, she didn't know Loki was involved, she thought she was making a bet with Thor!" when really, Thor was not only completely plastered at the time, but the whole thing was set up by Loki, no real trickery involved beyond the standard fine print kind of stuff.


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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    One of the main arguments in Hel's favor in the past few threads was "ah, she didn't know Loki was involved, she thought she was making a bet with Thor!" when really, Thor was not only completely plastered at the time, but the whole thing was set up by Loki, no real trickery involved beyond the standard fine print kind of stuff.
    Its her punishment for being greedy

    Quote Originally Posted by Yklikt View Post
    Um, what? Is thrymm his name? Because I can't find comic where she say his name
    Just read through the godsmoot where his cleric is voting you'll find it there
    Last edited by schmunzel; 2017-07-17 at 08:07 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Interesting that "no clerics among the living" was part of the bet, and that it *is* actually a proper bet which Hel can cash in if she wins. I wonder what the wager was.
    ungelic is us

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    That's what happens if you are content with the scraps other throw you. People - and especially gods of trickery - never offer you their best voluntarily.
    If they stand to gain from it. What did Loki gain by helping out Thor?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2017-07-17 at 08:08 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Ha! I was right about the "no living clerics" was central to the bet!

    GW
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If they stand to gain from it. What did Loki gain by helping out Thor?
    Given Thor's state, I suspect this may look like a bet, but it's a plot by Loki to weaken Hel (maybe to make him preeminent amongst the Evil gods of the North)

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    I wonder if the author has received any complains at all for abusing Norse mythology.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    What did Loki gain by helping out Thor?
    I don't think the bet helped Thor in any particular way (and possibly even weakened him if he ended up losing some dwarven souls to Hel). I'd guess it's simply Loki's trickster nature to fool both Hel and the drunken Thor, while making himself more powerful among the evil gods.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by warmachine View Post
    I wonder if the author has received any complains at all for abusing Norse mythology.
    I am pretty sure he said he didn't care.
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Hmm... You know, I just noticed that Hel gets default dominion over the souls of dwarves. Durkon framed it as a matter of her getting specifically the dishonored ones, but even honor neutral deaths apparently go to Hel.

    ...

    Also, how on earth did Thor ever get Hel to agree to the alcohol-related-deaths exception? Surely she wouldn't have agreed to that on her own, and I doubt Loki would push for it. Did Thor just get Hel plastered one night?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    And there we have the reason why dwarves get such a raw deal: Loki.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Also, how on earth did Thor ever get Hel to agree to the alcohol-related-deaths exception?
    Is it really an exception as such, or just part of the joke about those being considered honorable deaths:

    Na so much fer tha dwarf's sake as ta honor tha brave livers tha fought so long against tha inevitable.
    Last edited by Arkku; 2017-07-17 at 08:25 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Given Thor's state, I suspect this may look like a bet, but it's a plot by Loki to weaken Hel (maybe to make him preeminent amongst the Evil gods of the North)

    GW
    Well, it's a dangerous game betting against you right now, when one of your predictions was *just* right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkku View Post
    I don't think the bet helped Thor in any particular way (and possibly even weakened him if he ended up losing some dwarven souls to Hel). I'd guess it's simply Loki's trickster nature to fool both Hel and the drunken Thor, while making himself more powerful among the evil gods.
    Except now Thor gets nearly all the dwarves souls. Which was a good enough enticement to make Hel agree to a bad bet.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkku View Post
    Is it really an exception as such, or just part of the joke about those being considered honorable deaths:

    Na so much fer tha dwarf's sake as ta honor tha brave livers tha fought so long against tha inevitable.
    I seem to recall Durkon specifically describing it as an exception.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Well, that answers that.
    Still can't help but wonder why Loki came up with the plan to begin with though...

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Except now Thor gets nearly all the dwarves souls. Which was a good enough enticement to make Hel agree to a bad bet.
    I'm a bit unclear on how things would have been without the bet… If the dwarves were worshipping Thor sort of by default in their culture, would he actually have gotten more of their souls without the bet if the sole determining factor had been their allegiance?
    Last edited by Arkku; 2017-07-17 at 08:28 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Interesting that the secondary effect of this explains how dwarves have the honour-bound society that they have.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Hmm... You know, I just noticed that Hel gets default dominion over the souls of dwarves. Durkon framed it as a matter of her getting specifically the dishonored ones, but even honor neutral deaths apparently go to Hel.

    ...

    Also, how on earth did Thor ever get Hel to agree to the alcohol-related-deaths exception? Surely she wouldn't have agreed to that on her own, and I doubt Loki would push for it. Did Thor just get Hel plastered one night?
    There's no such thing as "honour neutral". In a society where only death in battle is honourable, you either die honourably or you don't. Thor won't argue that a death was "honour neutral", but that it still counted as honourable, being assimilable to death in battle.

    As for the alcohol-related deaths, Thor probably didn't need to make Hel agree to that. Thor stretches the definition of "honourable death" to a ridiculous extent, but it works probably because 1) the dwarves actually, sincerely believe those deaths are honourable, and/or 2) thanks to the current arrangement, Thor is much more powerful than Hel.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkku View Post
    I'm a bit unclear on how things would have been without the bet… If the dwarves were worshipping Thor sort of by default in their culture, would he actually have gotten more of their souls without the bet if the sole determining factor had been their allegiance?
    I was gonna argue that Thor worship likely came about due to the bet, not as default, but they also have some love for Odin. So not (virtually) all go to Thor.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Seriously, half of Norse mythology is people not realizing you should never make a bet with Loki
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Okay, so Loki was central to the bet.

    I am surprised on how little agency Thor had in it. This wasn't some scheme concocted together, this was a bet that was made on his behalf while half-drunk.

    Incidentally, I wanna know what he's drinking to get a friggin' god blitzed. I had in my old 3.5 game The Drink of the Dead, alcohol so powerful it could inebriate undead (fun fact: our dwarf had insane constitution, so he could drink it without dying), so I am not opposed to this on a fundamental level, just curious.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by warmachine View Post
    I wonder if the author has received any complains at all for abusing Norse mythology.
    Probably. I tend to think of the gods in the comic as just characters with the same names and sometimes similar but sillier stories. If you throw a hissy fit about every website that misrepresents mythology you'll spend all day typing in all caps.

    Even so, Odin seems more interesting than his first appearance after his "worlds within worlds and yarn winding yarn" comment. I think most of what we've seen with the gods up till now has just been jokes and now it's getting a little more serious.
    Last edited by Corwin Icewolf; 2017-07-17 at 08:40 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    And that is what happens when you let your greed overcome your common sense, Hel... I mean, really... An offer from *Loki*, of all gods?

    And now I am thinking of possible loopholes that, even if worst comes to worst, might prevent Hel from laying hands on the whole dwarvish population.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Seriously, half of Norse mythology is people not realizing you should never make a bet with Loki
    For some reason, I get the idea that Loki was doing this to wind up Thor, and Thor going ahead and informing the dwarves of how this all works was more or less a byproduct of the bet. I am not seeing why Loki would screw over his daughter like that. Then again, as a Trickster style of God, he is a bit chaotic ...

    Decent comic strip, and this comic folds in nicely with the comment Giant made a few years back about "life isn't fair, dwarves have a society with rigid rules ...".

    And as a follow up on dwarves building that social structure for *reasons*.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2017-07-17 at 09:17 AM.

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