Number of Character Appearances VI - Wrecan: "I like counting things"

[knag]

I support the policy change on vampire appearances. I always felt is was a little arbitrary and confusing anyway which is why I only counted vampire spirits for Greg on the wiki. If you're going to give him retroactive appearances, can you please list the comic numbers you're adding when you do?

[Jasdoif]

In the meantime, what do you all think about a minor shift in methodology? Martianmister decided not to track Durkon*'s appearances in comics where he didn't speak (or appear inside Durkon's head), as well as (IIRC) before he was freed from thralldom, but I've always felt that that seemed a bit arbitrary and it never made much sense to me. I'd like to change it, especially since we now have Word of Giant confirmation that Durkon* did, in fact, exist in Durkon's body from the moment he was reanimated. That said - although I don't think the rules of curatorship require me to have people vote on decisions like this - what does everyone else think? It would seem to be in poor form to start off the new thread by making a unilateral decision that went against the general consensus.

To expand on what Grey_Wolf_c already said....Since this change would directly affect the number of character appearances, in the Number of Character Appearances thread, this is definitely a change to the substance of the opening posts; you should definitely put such a thing before the thread...like you did.

That said, you "only" need consensus, and a vote is a way of measuring that consensus; if it's obvious without a vote, you don't strictly need to hold a vote.

[BrotherClod]

I know I'm late, but if a vote counts for anything my vote goes for title goes to...
*To absent friends*

[Angel Bob]

I support the policy change on vampire appearances. I always felt is was a little arbitrary and confusing anyway which is why I only counted vampire spirits for Greg on the wiki. If you're going to give him retroactive appearances, can you please list the comic numbers you're adding when you do?

Longtime lurker, but let me add my support for the policy change. Make things simpler.

[2.5 cats]

I'm good with whatever the curator decides.

[Precure]

1195- Roy and Julia

[ByzantiumBhuka]

A comic with >4 appearances! We're getting into the meat of the book!

1196: Elan, Carol, Haley Starshine, Vaarsuvius, Blackwing, Julia Greenhilt, Roy Greenhilt, Belkar Bitterleaf, Mr. Scruffy.

[Emanick]

You have my backing for your proposed changes. Heck, you probably have my backing for any change in methodology as long as you make a note of it in the first post.


Sort of, they do, but also they don't? You can't make decisions unilaterally, but as long as there is consensus it's fine, so pretty much what you are doing
(emphasis mine)

Grey Wolf

To expand on what Grey_Wolf_c already said....Since this change would directly affect the number of character appearances, in the Number of Character Appearances thread, this is definitely a change to the substance of the opening posts; you should definitely put such a thing before the thread...like you did.

That said, you "only" need consensus, and a vote is a way of measuring that consensus; if it's obvious without a vote, you don't strictly need to hold a vote.

Thanks for the clarification, both of you. My understanding was that if a previous curator was able to make a decision about something unilaterally (such as counting Durkon*'s appearances in a certain way), a subsequent curator would be able to change that unilaterally. I'm glad I didn't act on that assumption, since it appears to have been quite wrong.

In any case, it appears that there's a reasonably broad consensus in favor of the change, even if it's not totally unanimous, so I feel comfortable making that tweak. In accordance with knag's request (knag, do you prefer for your name to be capitalized?) I will be listing the comics that I'm adding appearances for. That way, if I make a mistake, hopefully somebody will catch my slip-up.

The new thread should be up later tonight, barring some unforeseen RL emergency. I'd like to apologize for the significant delay in getting it going (and to thank everyone for their well-wishes - I hope everyone else here is coping all right with the madness of covid-19, too). To expedite things somewhat, I think I'll go ahead and post it without sorting out the smilie situation first; I do plan to address it, but I figure it's better to get the new thread up ASAP at this point, even if it's not perfect.

EDIT: This is dumb, but I can't remember how to quote posts while keeping the existing quotes within them. I remember reading that it was possible somehow, but I forget where. Could anyone do me the favor of reminding me? It would save me a bit of time.

[Peelee]

You have my backing for your proposed changes. Heck, you probably have my backing for any change in methodology as long as you make a note of it in the first post.


Sort of, they do, but also they don't? You can't make decisions unilaterally, but as long as there is consensus it's fine, so pretty much what you are doing
(emphasis mine)

Grey Wolf

To expand on what Grey_Wolf_c already said....Since this change would directly affect the number of character appearances, in the Number of Character Appearances thread, this is definitely a change to the substance of the opening posts; you should definitely put such a thing before the thread...like you did.

That said, you "only" need consensus, and a vote is a way of measuring that consensus; if it's obvious without a vote, you don't strictly need to hold a vote.

Thanks for the clarification, both of you.




EDIT: This is dumb, but I can't remember how to quote posts while keeping the existing quotes within them. I remember reading that it was possible somehow, but I forget where. Could anyone do me the favor of reminding me? It would save me a bit of time.

Like that? I usually Multiquote and copy/paste the quotes as appropriate. I also rarely do it unless the context is needed (so usually only for a joke), since it's annoying to do.

[Emanick]

Like that? I usually Multiquote and copy/paste the quotes as appropriate. I also rarely do it unless the context is needed (so usually only for a joke), since it's annoying to do.

Oh, I know how to quote multiple posts, just not how to do so while preserving the formatting in the quote within the original post (i.e. without copy/pasting). I vaguely remember a conversation in a pinned comic discussion thread some months ago where you were talking with someone else and they explained to you how to do this? Maybe it was about something else unrelated, though; I can't remember for sure.

It's not super important; I can always manually add the formatting myself. If there's a shortcut, though, it would be cool to know about it - not just for this thread, but for the future.

EDIT: On the off chance that anyone is getting impatient for the new thread, I'm not actually going to be able to post it tonight; I've updated most of the Character Appearances information, but I still haven't recorded the info from the bonus strips in the new book, or counted the additional appearances for Durkon*, which is a job I think I'll leave for tomorrow. I'm also not sure whether to count the Bag of Tricks animals in #1188 as additional appearances for previously summoned critters, or whether to treat them as new characters (and thus not count them at all, basically). Thoughts?

[Jasdoif]

Thanks for the clarification, both of you. My understanding was that if a previous curator was able to make a decision about something unilaterally (such as counting Durkon*'s appearances in a certain way), a subsequent curator would be able to change that unilaterally. I'm glad I didn't act on that assumption, since it appears to have been quite wrong.

Few things:

• Consider changes transactionally. When HPoH first made his existence (as distinct from Durkon) known, HPoH's metaphysical representation was rather new ground for a recurring character to appear in, and martianmister chose a way to track the character that needed to be tracked; one comic at a time. You're talking about changing how the character's appearances are counted across the entire last book, all at once. The sharp change is a good sign of a need to put it before the thread.
• In general, any change to how the thread determines something should be put before the thread; especially if it's specifically something the thread's already been determining. You might get a proposal that's better than what you had in mind; and at the very least, no one saying anything means "no one objected" passes as legitimate, if short-term, consensus to go ahead.
• Should something become genuinely urgent, I believe it is within your right to make a decision without consulting the thread, if it's something the thread hasn't even expressed any opinions on; but that puts you on the hook to reverse it in short order if the thread responds negatively after you've done the corresponding work (as that disapproval will be the consensus you're required to reflect), and I wouldn't advise doing that to yourself if you can avoid it.

...I can't remember how to quote posts while keeping the existing quotes within them. I remember reading that it was possible somehow, but I forget where. Could anyone do me the favor of reminding me? It would save me a bit of time.

It's mostly what Peelee said. The main thing left is that a quoted post will have that double arrow () linking to the original post that you can use multiquote on (and in more unusual cases, that multiquote will actually track posts across multiple pages/threads). Then it's a matter of cut-and-pasting the quotes to resemble the right stacking order (cutting the entire inner quote and pasting it immediately after the closing of the outer quote's opening [quote] tag, in the typical case).

[knag]

(knag, do you prefer for your name to be capitalized?)

I do not. Thanks for asking!

[Precure]

...or counted the additional appearances for Durkon*, which is a job I think I'll leave for tomorrow.

I think you're looking for Durkon as Vampire and High Priest of Hel as Durkon from the interesting alterations, no?

[Emanick]

I think you're looking for Durkon as Vampire and High Priest of Hel as Durkon from the interesting alterations, no?

That might work, assuming martianmister tracked them the way I think she did, but my brain's a bit scrambled at the moment so I'm doing a manual count, just to be safe. I did promise to state the list of strips I was adding to Durkon*'s list of appearances, after all.

Another random bookkeeping thing: This thread currently states that it's updated through strip #1170, but, after going over it, I think it's actually only updated through #1169. (For one thing, "Dvalin's Cleric," Millidred Thickbelt and Regin Greenhammer don't actually appear to have been listed in the thread at all.) I'm concerned that martianmister may have added some of the characters but not all of them, so I'm double-checking the number of appearances Thrym, Hel and Thor currently have, just to see if they're consistent with the "updated through #1169" theory. If anyone else would like to weigh in on this while they're stuck inside due to the virus, I'd welcome second (and third, and fourth) opinions.

Oh, and I'm not sure whether the "Noted Expert" in #1170 counts as a name - seems to me it could go either way, based on the list of currently-included characters - but I'm opting to add him because I think it's funnier to treat that as his name. If people thinks that's a bad idea, though, I'll happily take him out.

[Schroeswald]

Noted Expert is a funny name so I support it.

[Emanick]

Noted Expert is a funny name so I support it.

Excellent, thanks.

It looks as though martianmister did indeed add appearances for the existing characters in #1170; she simply forgot to add the new characters to the thread. So I've revised my working copy of the new thread accordingly.

I'm now working on integrating the list of additional appearances in Utterly Dwarfed's bonus strips into the new thread. I'm using Gift Jeraff's excellent count (quoted below if anyone wants to peruse it), along with knag's edits, which I'm unable to quote but which are visible here. Thanks so much to the both of you; you've saved me an enormous amount of work.

There seems to have been some disagreement on whether to treat the short figure on the copyright page as Thirden. I think the resemblance and height is too significant to be coincidental, so I'm choosing to count it (obviously I can reverse that if I'm in the minority on the subject). And I think we agreed not to count the reprints on page 2 of the introduction as appearances.

I'll post any other edge cases here if and when I come to them for discussion.

Here's my count of Book 6 material:

Spoiler: Book 6 Print/PDF-Exclusive Material

Show

Title Page
Thor

Copyright Page
Thirden (?)
(We don't count the ads for the other books as it may change in future prints)

Preface
Haley Starshine

Introduction p1
Rich Burlew

Introduction p2
This is is a weird one where we see bits of #421, #777, and #937.
From #421 we see some of the crying troops from the penultimate panel.
From #777 we see the guard with the clipboard, the crowd of gladiators, the 3 speech balloons from the 3 guys named Spartacus, and part of the speech balloons from Gannji and Enor in the panel below.
From #937 we see Julio, Roy, and Bandana, as well as part of the doctor's speech balloon.

Introduction p3
Roy Greenhilt

Recap p1
Belkar Bitterleaf
Durkon Allotrope Thundershield
"Durkon"*
"Malack" the Lizardfolk
Nale
Roy Greenhilt
Snarl
Tarquin

Recap p2
Durkon Allotrope Thundershield
"Durkon"*
Hel
"Malack" the Lizardfolk
Nale

Round 3 title page
High Priest of Balder
High Priest of Vafthrudnir
High Priestess of Freya
High Priestess of Hoder
High Priestess of Odin
High Priestess of Sif
High Priestess Rubyrock
Representative of Southern Pantheon

Round 4 commentary
Monster in the Darkness
Oona

New panels inserted into the second page of #1051
(This is another weird one since it's 5 panels inserted into an existing strip, and the 5th isn't even continuous from the others, but it should still count going by how we counted similar bonus material in the past.)
Beatrix aka Bandana Secundus
Blackwing
Possibly the helmed frost giant from #1050 and the first page of #1051
Roy Greenhilt
Unknown Mechane crewman (might be unique to this panel?)

Round 6 title page
Durkon Allotrope Thundersthield
"Durkon"* (no dialogue but appears in his Negative Energy spirit form so it counts)

Round 8 title page
Council of Elders Relief

Round 9 title page
Durkon Allotrope Thundershield
Logann
Shirra Copperbottom
Shirra's Sons
Sigdi Thundershield

Final page
Redcloak
Xykon

#960a
Banjo
Carol
Elan the Bard
Eliza
Felix
Kwesi
Mechane Crewman with eyepatch and pegleg
Mechane Crewman with five o'clock shadow
(I think the butterfly and other 2 Mechane crew are unique to this page)

#966a
Beatrix aka Bandana Secundus
Elan the Bard
Haley Starshine

#967a
Durkon Allotrope Thundershield
Roy Greenhilt

#967b
Belkar Bitterleaf
Mr. Scruffy
(I think the gnomes from this and the previous 2 bonus strips are unique to each page)

#989a
Elan the Bard
Haley Starshine

#993a
Belkar Bitterleaf
Durkon Allotrope Thundershield
"Durkon"*
Roy Greenhilt
Veldrina
Wrecan

#1052a
Elan the Bard
Roy Greenhilt
(I think the 3 frost giants are unique to this page)

#1169a
Belkar Bitterleaf
Blackwing
Elan the Bard
Giant Death Worm
Haley Starshine
Roy Greenhilt
Vaarsuvius

#1170c
CotS Usher with Sandy Hair
Janna
Minrah Elle Shaleshoe
Priestess of Hel with short hair
(2 dominated Council of Elder Guards can be seen in the background of the first panel)

#1182a
Elan the Bard
Haley Starshine
Logann
Logann's Father
Logann's Sister
Quippie
Thirden

#1185a
Durkon Allotrope Thundershield
Haley Starshine
Minrah Elle Shaleshoe

[Schroeswald]

So... the smilies just started working! Except for Tarquin’s they are all working, idk what happened but they are

[Precure]

So... the smilies just started working! Except for Tarquin’s they are all working, idk what happened but they are

It's a miracle!

[Schroeswald]

So... the smilies just started working! Except for Tarquin’s they are all working, idk what happened but they are

Wait, sorry, Tarquin's is working, Greg's is the one that isn't (also Z), however I do think I've seen both of them working at different points in time.

[Precure]

Wait, sorry, Tarquin's is working, Greg's is the one that isn't (also Z), however I do think I've seen both of them working at different points in time.

Both of them currently working for me.

[Precure]

Currently ones with no smiley:

Vampire Dwarf with Blue Curly Hair
Hoskin
Kandro
Vampire Dwarf with Brown Beard
Vampire Dwarf with Red Ponytail

But I think most of them never had them in first place.

[Schroeswald]

Currently ones with no smiley:

Vampire Dwarf with Blue Curly Hair
Hoskin
Kandro
Vampire Dwarf with Brown Beard
Vampire Dwarf with Red Ponytail

But I think most of them never had them in first place.

Logann is also missing one and I believe a few others who now have more than 10 appearances also need one (I noticed Oona, Shirra, High Priestess of Frigg but they probably aren't alone).

[b_jonas]

Currently ones with no smiley: Hoskin

I made one for Hoskin last year, but I think there was a problem with the host imgur so other people couldn't see the image. Tell me if you can see them now, and if not, I'll upload it somewhere else. Of course it's likely that someone who's better in graphics can just make nicer ones.

Shirra:
Hoskin:

[TheWombatOfDoom]

I made one for Hoskin last year, but I think there was a problem with the host imgur so other people couldn't see the image. Tell me if you can see them now, and if not, I'll upload it somewhere else. Of course it's likely that someone who's better in graphics can just make nicer ones.

Shirra:
Hoskin:

I can see both.

[Schroeswald]

I made one for Hoskin last year, but I think there was a problem with the host imgur so other people couldn't see the image. Tell me if you can see them now, and if not, I'll upload it somewhere else. Of course it's likely that someone who's better in graphics can just make nicer ones.

Shirra:
Hoskin:

I can see the first versions of each of them but not the second ones.

[knag]

1197: Belkar, Elan, Durkon, Haley, Kraagor, Minrah, Mr. Scuffy, Roy, Vaarsuvius

[Precure]

Jirix and Thirden's smileys are gone.

[Schroeswald]

Jirix and Thirden's smileys are gone.

They work for me.

[Emanick]

I made one for Hoskin last year, but I think there was a problem with the host imgur so other people couldn't see the image. Tell me if you can see them now, and if not, I'll upload it somewhere else. Of course it's likely that someone who's better in graphics can just make nicer ones.

Shirra:
Hoskin:

Thanks for the smilies, they look great! No need for anyone to make "nicer ones," at least not in my opinion.

Oh, and thanks for the update for #1197, knag.

Question: Have we historically counted appearances on book covers? I don't remember whether that's customary - I would guess yes, but Gift Jeraff doesn't seem to have included them on his roundup of the book-only appearances.

[Gift Jeraff]

To the best of my memory and searching, the front cover, back cover, and inside covers were never counted:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=320