[Homebrew] What would a LG goddess of Democracy and Elections be like?

[Zhentarim]

Just prodding for more ideas. She is already partially completed.

[Pleh]

Well, I dunno what (if any) effects PF enforces on deities, but I like the idea of "chorus" deity. I picture a deity that actually is a swarm moving and acting in unison, a voice of thousands speaking in concert.

Similarly, you could do a "trinity" thing like the christian deity in real life, where there are three bodies, but one deity (maybe completing each others sentences like the informants from Valerian).

[Celestia]

Tall, female, green, wearing a robe, holding a book and torch, spikey crown. Just spit balling ideas.

[BWR]

Isn't the concept of a single entity in charge of democracy and elections kind of oxymoronic?
At best it would be a single god chosen by popular vote.

[Pleh]

Isn't the concept of a single entity in charge of democracy and elections kind of oxymoronic?
At best it would be a single god chosen by popular vote.

Not necessarily. They could be the patron of deomcratic philosophy: the protector and guardian of its authenticity rather than the one who decides each election. Kord is the patron of physical sports, but he isn't the only one who gets to compete.

In cases of a tie, worshippers of this deity might ask for a tiebreaker.

[Waker]

Well, I dunno what (if any) effects PF enforces on deities, but I like the idea of "chorus" deity. I picture a deity that actually is a swarm moving and acting in unison, a voice of thousands speaking in concert.

Isn't the concept of a single entity in charge of democracy and elections kind of oxymoronic?
At best it would be a single god chosen by popular vote.

They've probably got some of the better suggestions for an original deity concept. The "Goddess" is actually a collective of celestial spirits, whose current leader is the female most worshipers picture.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

She can never agree with herself.

Less jokingly, I see three main options:
1 Similar to lady Justice, or lady Liberty, an objective umpire seeing that the proceedings are just without expressing her own opinions.
2 What Pleh says, I really like that idea, she is some kind of spirit colony, legion, the one of many voices. She leads by example. If she can do this, humans can.
3 What BWR says. She is actually elected. Maybe there's a group of gods and goddesses of civilization. Some roles might be part of the gods permanent portfolio's but some roles (maybe all of them, maybe just this single one) change hands. You get to be the god of democracy for a four year term or until impeached.

[BWR]

Not necessarily. They could be the patron of deomcratic philosophy: the protector and guardian of its authenticity rather than the one who decides each election. Kord is the patron of physical sports, but he isn't the only one who gets to compete.

In cases of a tie, worshippers of this deity might ask for a tiebreaker.

This doesn't help any. The idea of a single entity in charge of democracy and elections that doesn't have the position as the result of democratic process is against the spirit of the portfolio. It's almost like the concepts of a patron god of atheism, or the king of a republic.
I can see a new version of King Arthur/Dennis the Peasant sketch between this goddess and someone trying to get an honest election won.

[Faily]

Every four years, the churches of Democracy hold an election, allowing all church-goers to cast their vote for the god they want to represent democracy?

[Eldonauran]

This church had better be careful, lest the worshipers figure out they can vote for the celestial being that promises them everything, and elect the wrong celestial to power. Democracy is only just a nice form of mob rule, after all, without some other form of limiting power, like a constitution or check and balances.

[Coidzor]

No one elects the old ladies who control the polling stations, but you'd better believe they're essential to the process.

[Zhentarim]

Dogma
Whenever possible, work with those in power to bring greater democracy to the masses, as this will lead towards a greater and more sustained advance towards worldwide democracy for all. Advocate for freedom through debate, and respect others freedom of speech--protecting that freedom if necessary. If your ideas are overthrown by majority opinion, do not resort to violence. Rather, you should try to represent your ideas in a more palatsble way and hope the vote favors your views next time. You should generally believe the laws you advocate would generally lead to the greatest good for the greatest number. You should follow the laws as they stand unless you can clearly articulate why those laws are causing direct harm to others, and even then your disobedience should be civil. Only when an unelected leader, or a leader elected as a result of a rigged election, refuses to stop oppressing the populace may you lead revolt. Even then, however, you must take pains to minimize innocent bloodshed. When the election for the next incarnation of Libertas is held, be sure to vote.
History

Appearance
Libertas is not one goddess, but rather a succession of elected goddesses who, while all holding the ideal of democracy high, have slightly different interpretations of what the best democracy would entail. Some candidates for Libertas favor more direct democracy, others favor more representative democracy. Some favor first-past-the-post voting and others prefer instant runoff voting. Regardless, every 4 years on the last day of the year, Election Day is held and thus the appearance of the goddess varies. The old goddess transfers her power to the mortal who wins the election and that mortal, who is more often than not female, becomes the next Libertas. After losing power, the old goddess dies, and the mortal becomes a fully empowered goddess. All Libertas wear green robes, a green spiky crown, and a torch, however.

Relationships
Libertas tends to get along well with other good-aligned dieties who respect the democratic process.
Libertas has a Neutral Evil demigod counterpart who renamed herself Tyrantia. Tyrantia was a mortal who ascended to demigod status when the then-current Libertas created a less powerful assistant who would play devils advocate for the next-most-popular position in the last vote as well as help keep straight the different votes and proceedures in each city state that had adopted democracy. When the next Libertas was elected, though, the demigod who would become known as Tyrantia refused to give up her power, and fled. Tyrantia became the patron of tyrants, as well as decietful politicians who bend the rules in their favor and break campaign promises. All sucessive Libertas have sought to destroy Tyrantia.

Providence
Politicians who run and follow proper democratic procedure, and have a good heart, will find their voices carry farther and that their propaganda multiplies on its own. Her displeasure is usually seen in the form of political scandals being suddenly public knowledge.
Servants

Unique Servants

Church of Libertas

Worshipers

Clergy Her clergy consists of the Torch Bearers, which has both Enlisted and Commissioned ranks which are each subdivided into 10 subranks with varying levels of responsibility. The Commissioned Torch Bearers outrank all Enlisted Torch Bearers due to their stricter code, however.

Temples and Servants

Holy Texts

Holidays Holy Election Day-- The next incarnation of Libertas is selected.

Organizations
---The Enlisted Torch-Bearers
There is an order of Gray Paladins who enforce the procedures of the democratic process, serve as baliffs in courts, and act as city gaurds. This order, known as as the Enlisted Torch-Bearers, forms over 95% of the Church of Libertas's military wing. While they are not as powerful as the commissioned Torch-Bearers, they are allowed greater flexibility with the church code and thus, while they are outranked by commissioned torch bearers, they do the majority of the church's dirty work. Their home base is in Caphia.

---The Commissioned Torch-Bearers
The Commissioned Torch-Bearers tend to be Sacred Shield Paladins and must follow a much stricter code than the enlisted Torch Bearers they command. They rarely see combat, however, as they are more concerned with having administrative desk jobs and making sure minimum innocent blood is shed and that the enlisted Torch-Bearers are still roughly in line with the church despite their much more relaxed codes of conduct. Their home base is also in Caphia.

[Pleh]

This doesn't help any. The idea of a single entity in charge of democracy and elections that doesn't have the position as the result of democratic process is against the spirit of the portfolio. It's almost like the concepts of a patron god of atheism, or the king of a republic.
I can see a new version of King Arthur/Dennis the Peasant sketch between this goddess and someone trying to get an honest election won.

"In charge of democracy and elections." Even if they have literally no power to influence the outcome and only to prevent all other outside or illigitimate sources from undermining the process? Exactly how does that conflict with a democratic process?

Even if no one elected her, why does that matter? Her role is the spirit of guiding society to democracy and preserving that state. She doesn't force anyone to operare democratically, so everyone who participates honestly in a democratic process has elected her through participating in democracy. She is constantly trying to persuade mortals to participate willingly. Those that reject her do not have democratic processes for her to not be in charge of.

Coidzor made an excellent example with the polling station staff. Many participants in a democratic process have not been elected. Some are appointed, others volunteer. Doesn't negate the democracy of the process.

Edit: patron god of atheism is a bit more direct paradox. Probably the closest you could get is a patron deity of not believing in gods or not serving gods, which would have to be either a deity of misdirection intentionally bamboozling mortals or simply "trying to free mortals" from the other deities.

King of a republic isn't all that hard. A republic is merely a state controlled by the people through representatives. They don't have to be elected; that would make a democratic republic. A king, as long as it wasn't hereditary monarchy, could still fill the role of public representative, literally serving the public wishes. As for alternatives to attaining this office without election or birthright, it could be determined by random chance, a council of wise men (theocratic if priests, oligargic if social elite, aristocratic, etc), the alignment of the stars, victory in competition with other candidates, and just about any silly criteria you can imagine (or find in a history book).

[Sayt]

I would either go with an "Awakened Personification", or perhaps have, in addition to the man pantheon, you have the "Voice of the Choir", a first amongst equal of the non-deific celestials, and embodies the consensus of the choir in real time, maybe play with the depersonalization of representing a population rather than being an individual..

[legomaster00156]

I should note, Golarion has a figure somewhat like this. Talmandor, while not actually a deity, is revered as one by a select few Andoran citizens. (The Wiki got this part wrong, since he is explicitly stated to have a small following that sees him as a god of democracy and community.)

[White Blade]

Part of the problem is where in the setting's history you are, in the development of governmental types and the relative historical period. Is she just the patron of democracy? If she's the only goddess with a hand on the scale of governance, obviously the world will be full of democracies.

On the other hand, if she is one among a sortie of deities with such interests (perhaps a magocratic oligarchy supporting wizard god or a fanatical militarist dictator supporter or a patron of just and beneficent noble lines), this goddess is going to be in for more wars and revolutions, an oppressed clergy, and probably (if she is indeed elected) soon to support a hardline against rival governmental factions. Furthermore, what is stopping Libertas from manifesting materially and enforcing the popular will by divine fiat?

There's also the question of which thesis of democracy Libertas believes in and why she believes in it. Is it a question of fundamental dignity? Common wisdom?

[rferries]

Tall, female, green, wearing a robe, holding a book and torch, spikey crown. Just spit balling ideas.

Ha! I see what you did there :D

[Vhaidara]

I'd like to point out that under the current iteration, this church condemns someone to death every 4 years, since the departing goddess explicitly dies. It would be like if the President just got executed when his term ended. That feels...very not LG.

[Coidzor]

It is all kinds of janky.

[Pleh]

I'd like to point out that under the current iteration, this church condemns someone to death every 4 years, since the departing goddess explicitly dies. It would be like if the President just got executed when his term ended. That feels...very not LG.

Executed, or sacrificed? If the sacrifice is self-inflicted voluntarily, does that change things? Celebrated socially as a final act of heroism? In some cultures, facing your death with courage and honor is very much a good thing.

But no reason to soil the hands of mortals with the blood of their elected goddess. Could just be a natural side effect that you age rapidly and die of old age without fail exactly 4 years after being sworn in.

[legomaster00156]

Could just be a natural side effect that you age rapidly and die of old age without fail exactly 4 years after being sworn in.

It wouldn't even be all that disbelievable, if you look at the aging effects of being an actual President.

[Coidzor]

Executed, or sacrificed? If the sacrifice is self-inflicted voluntarily, does that change things?

No, because for it to be voluntary it would have to actually be possible, and if it were possible then there would be those who would refuse to die.

In some cultures, facing your death with courage and honor is very much a good thing.

In a context where that actually makes sense, rather than this.

But no reason to soil the hands of mortals with the blood of their elected goddess. Could just be a natural side effect that you age rapidly and die of old age without fail exactly 4 years after being sworn in.

That makes even less sense. You'd be better off with longer terms, such that upon returning to mortality, they die from being past the lifespan of their race or having them become part of some greater amalgamated entity, such as by Silver Flaming it up.

[Pleh]

No, because for it to be voluntary it would have to actually be possible, and if it were possible then there would be those who would refuse to die.

A god can kill a god, so why can't a god commit suicide?

And, yes, I think it would be fantastic story setting to have a fallen deity who failed to abdicate power when their own portfolio dictated they must, perverting the natural order and turning into a dark, maddened deity of tyranny and suffering.

In a context where that actually makes sense, rather than this.

I see no reason it couldn't make sense in this context. Care to elaborate on your perspective?

That makes even less sense. You'd be better off with longer terms, such that upon returning to mortality, they die from being past the lifespan of their race or having them become part of some greater amalgamated entity, such as by Silver Flaming it up.

However you want to flavor it. It really doesn't matter the means. It's only the ends we require here.

[BWR]

"In charge of democracy and elections." Even if they have literally no power to influence the outcome and only to prevent all other outside or illigitimate sources from undermining the process? Exactly how does that conflict with a democratic process?

Even if no one elected her, why does that matter? Her role is the spirit of guiding society to democracy and preserving that state. She doesn't force anyone to operare democratically, so everyone who participates honestly in a democratic process has elected her through participating in democracy. She is constantly trying to persuade mortals to participate willingly. Those that reject her do not have democratic processes for her to not be in charge of.

Coidzor made an excellent example with the polling station staff. Many participants in a democratic process have not been elected. Some are appointed, others volunteer. Doesn't negate the democracy of the process.

But they have their positions as the result of democratic process, whether they were directly elected or not. At some point, somewhere down the line from any actual election, the people who organized the democracy set up the system that required overseers. Divinity doesn't work that way. How were the gods chosen by those they rule over? Who hired the prospective goddess of democracy to have the job of overseeing things? Where are the lines of accountability? What happens when the people who like democracy aren't happy with this goddess what she is doing? How do they punish or replace her? It boils down to it that, even less than monarchy, D&D divinity doesn't work well with modern understandings of democratic process.


Republic: a form of government where the head of state is not a monarch

[Pleh]

But they have their positions as the result of democratic process, whether they were directly elected or not. At some point, somewhere down the line from any actual election, the people who organized the democracy set up the system that required overseers.

This is how we have established our democracy, but I see nothing in the definition of democracy that says it can't be established by immortal deities.

In fact, part of how american democracy was built relied on the idea that citizens were granted certain inalienable rights by their deity. Right to participate in democracy is rather heavily implied in that verse.

Divinity doesn't work that way.

Typically. Divinity typically doesn't work that way. Divinity in this context is fiction and can work however we say it does.

How were the gods chosen by those they rule over?

If we look at real world religion, it rather seems most gods are chosen by their worshippers rather than vice versa. The more typical exception to this is when culture you live in chooses on your behalf and punishes you if you deviate.

Sure, in D&D the gods are definitively active and real, where there is speculation (to put it lightly) in our world. This changes the relationship somewhat, but worship remains voluntary, so gods receive "votes" every time a mortal worships them or prays to them or makes a decision in keeping with the deity's professed agenda.

Who hired the prospective goddess of democracy to have the job of overseeing things? Where are the lines of accountability?

Who judges St Cuthbert to ensure he doesn't commit injustice?

Why does Elhonna dictate what is considered, "nature" (or "natural") rather than Cthulhu?

We're talking about what relationship does a deity have with their domain. If the god of water dies, do the oceans and rains dry up? Or does a flood destroy the world? Or does the water cycle merely stop, leaving no rain to fall, sparing the oceans while rivers stop flowing?

Is a deity the source of its domain or merely its caretaker? Is the deity the living essence of this physical phenomenon or the external manager for it?

These are questions not answered by RAW or real world examples (not uniformly, at least). These questions are answered totally by setting which means they work however the DM says they do. All we need is one example where it is possible and the proof is complete.

And since we can do anything (including creating deities that exist despite possessing inherent paradoxes), creating a proof example is rather trivial.

The fact that you would not accept the example only means you would not be satisfied playing a game in the requisite setting, not that no one anywhere ever would.

But if it makes you feel better, call it a theocratic democracy. The dictator deity demands that worshipers vote their opinion, then the deity acts according to majority vote. Again, it doesn't matter how we get this to work, just that by any means we can (and paradoxes don't necessarily matter in fantasy, especially with fictional deities: "the ways of the gods are mysterious").

What happens when the people who like democracy aren't happy with this goddess what she is doing? How do they punish or replace her?

If her role is merely safeguarding the tenants of democracy, they can only be disatisfied that she hasn't protected democracy from tyranny enough. If the deity devoted to doing this wasn't enough security, how do you get any stronger security than a god making it her highest priority? What alternative could a mortal elect?

Now, if we're going with the reincarnated avatar route, then it may be possible that the elected "mortal god" could fail to uphold the responsibilities of the office and they might hold a special election to impeach the mortal god and pass the power and spirit of the deity to their successor.

It boils down to that, even less than monarchy, D&D divinity doesn't work well with modern understandings of democratic process.


Republic: a form of government where the head of state is not a monarch

It doesn't work well if you strictly limit to real world, modern understanding of democracy. But why are we limiting ourselves to this definition when other interpretations of democracy are more useful to what the thread is trying to accomplish?

After all, magic doesn't work well if you only consider modern understanding of real world physics.

Catgirls don't get to vote in real world democracy. I lobby for catgirl suffrage!

And what if tragedy struck england, wiping out the known royal family, and following the line of succession, the next line line happened to be the current PotUS? Are we suddenly no longer a republic because our head of state is a monarch?

A silly, exaggerated argument (I'm sure both countries have rules preventing this scenario), but hopefully you get my point. Common real world sense dictates that hereditary monarchies are not elected (except when they vote a monarchy out via revolt, butcher the royal family, and the leaders of the revolt become the new royalty), but part of the point of fiction is to explore other ways of thinking, even if only to enjoy the silliness of it.

Happy unbirthday, by the way. We're all mad here.

[Manyasone]

Well. S/he wouldn't be lawful good to begin with. And s/he would be a them. Yes-no-abstain. A triumvirate of deities occupying a single body. That's how i see it

[BWR]

This is how we have established our democracy, but I see nothing in the definition of democracy that says it can't be established by immortal deities..

Then it is still a form of government imposed on people rather than chosen by those governed. That kind of goes against the core idea of a democracy.

In fact, part of how american democracy was built relied on the idea that citizens were granted certain inalienable rights by their deity. Right to participate in democracy is rather heavily implied in that verse.

Arguable, but we're hitting a board limit here so let's leave this one be, shall we?

Typically. Divinity typically doesn't work that way. Divinity in this context is fiction and can work however we say it does.

We can. Does it?
You have given no indication that it does so far, so I have argued from a more traditional D&D perspective.

If we look at real world religion, it rather seems most gods are chosen by their worshippers rather than vice versa. The more typical exception to this is when culture you live in chooses on your behalf and punishes you if you deviate.

Sure, in D&D the gods are definitively active and real, where there is speculation (to put it lightly) in our world. This changes the relationship somewhat, but worship remains voluntary, so gods receive "votes" every time a mortal worships them or prays to them or makes a decision in keeping with the deity's professed agenda.

Real world stuff aside, in a setting where you have basically only one god for any given concept or thing, you run into the monopoly problem. You want victory in war, gotta pray to Headsmasher, want to travel safely across the ocean you gotta placate Waterydeath. In the case of this prospective goddess, what sort of competition does she have? Are there any alternatives for people to choose from? What happens if the people are unhappy with the job she's doing? Who can they turn to as an alternative? Part of the point of a democracy is that you can get rid of the ones you don't like in charge and put in new ones. Part of the point is choice between alternatives and unless you invent even more gods with the same portfolio there are no other options than her.

Who judges St Cuthbert to ensure he doesn't commit injustice? Why does Ehlonna dictate what is considered natural rather than Cthulhu?

No one, but justice and democracy aren't the same thing. It is perfectly possible to conceive of a universal, external code of justice. It's no different than saying there is objective Good and Evil in the multiverse.

For one thing, Cthulhu doesn't exist in Greyhawk. Secondly, Nature and what is Natural is not Ehlonna's domain. She is the patroness of woodlands, its flora and fauna and fertility. She doesn't have to decide what is natural, she just promotes one aspect of something already there.

We're talking about what relationship does a deity have with their domain. If the god of water dies, do the oceans and rains dry up? Or does a flood destroy the world? Or does the water cycle merely stop, leaving no rain to fall, sparing the oceans while rivers stop flowing?

Is a deity the source of its domain or merely its caretaker? Is the deity the living essence of this physical phenomenon or the external manager for it?

These are questions not answered by RAW or real world examples (not uniformly, at least). These questions are answered totally by setting which means they work however the DM says they do. All we need is one example where it is possible and the proof is complete.

And since we can do anything (including creating deities that exist despite possessing inherent paradoxes), creating a proof example is rather trivial.

The fact that you would not accept the example only means you would not be satisfied playing a game in the requisite setting, not that no one anywhere ever would.

But if it makes you feel better, call it a theocratic democracy. The dictator deity demands that worshipers vote their opinion, then the deity acts according to majority vote. Again, it doesn't matter how we get this to work, just that by any means we can (and paradoxes don't necessarily matter in fantasy, especially with fictional deities: "the ways of the gods are mysterious").

And a theocratic democracy is an contradiction, which is what I have been saying all along. The entire concept is one big contradiction.
Now there are settings where you can have gods that work for various causes and phenomena rather than being the embodiment of them. Mystara, famously, could make this work. The thing is, there are no gods of things there, only gods who are interested in and work with or for things. You can have any number of gods that are fond of fire or are associated with fire, but you will not have any that are The God of Fire. In this case, no god will have any special connection to democracy on a metaphysical level. They will merely work to promote good democratic practice voluntarily and will not have any more special status than comes from the fact that they are powerful. You could in fact think of them as very powerful and very distant political party leaders.

If her role is merely safeguarding the tenants of democracy, they can only be disatisfied that she hasn't protected democracy from tyranny enough. If the deity devoted to doing this wasn't enough security, how do you get any stronger security than a god making it her highest priority? What alternative could a mortal elect?

Another god who (hopefully) does it better. This is exactly the point. If you have only one alternative there isn't much of a choice. That doesn't sound like much like a democracy to me.
To make potential problems exaggeratedly clear: "Vote for the Glorious Leader; you don't get alternatives because you don't need any others!"

It doesn't work well if you strictly limit to real world, modern understanding of democracy. But why are we limiting ourselves to this definition when other interpretations of democracy are more useful to what the thread is trying to accomplish?

Because I can only go by actual definitions of things unless you specifically state the alternative definitions you wish to use.
Democracies are perfectly possible in most settings regardless of whether gods exist. They don't need much of anything by way of alteration, except to have a slightly more inclusive and rigorous definition of 'people' and 'person'.

[CSeiberlin]

Heh....I would've just reskinned Athena- the patron of Athens. She was created from the thoughts of Zeus (more of an ideal) but I think I've become a bit biased towards her because of what Neal Stephenson has to say about her (and Ares).

Though your focus is more on a representative democracy but organically I'd think the god of democracy would first find root in a smaller community that practiced direct democracy, like a city-state. Maybe a sort of colonial frontier as well but essentially where truly powerful aristocrats are thin on the ground or have been driven out of public life (or the country) sometime in the past (like Galt in Golarion or during some part of Tethyr's civil war in Forgotten Realms).

[Scowling Dragon]

Depends. If its the spirit of democracy, then its something unchanging that never bends its core principles.

If its more like a LN god, the god itself would bend to the will of the people. God of the vote in a way.

[A.A.King]

Clerics who worship the Goddess of Democracy don't get to just pick any spells they want (except for their Domain Slot), instead their proposed list is but one vote and all the requests get put together and then everyone gets the same spell list based on how often any particular spell was requested.