Improving my descriptions--avoiding infringements of agency

[PhoenixPhyre]

One of the repeated comments in the "Fight Topic" thread got me thinking. I first want to stress that I'm posting this to get feedback/advice so I can do better, not to start a war.

For the purpose of this thread, I will take the position that DMs shouldn't tell players how their characters "think, feel, or act." Whether or not I agree with that is secondary--I know that there are a non-trivial number of players that do, and my first priority as a DM is to help everyone have fun.

With that in mind, how can I best phrase (or modify) the following ideas to minimize the infringement on agency? If it matters, the system is 5e D&D.

Idea One: Mind-Altering Drugs
One idea I've used in the past is a series of drugs (<color> Ketra by name). These drugs are made by grinding up the tortured, still-living remains of mephit-like elemental creatures. Each elemental type produces a separate "color" of Ketra. These drugs all have similar properties, but the details differ.

• Each color enhances a certain emotional state. For example, red ketra makes the user have anger-control issues.
• Each color gives certain stat bonuses/penalties.
• Each color is absurdly addictive (almost a parody of real-life anti-drug campaigns.
• Each drug has a low lethal dose. Most users proceed to overdose relatively quickly (months).

Most of these are not a problem--players will avoid repeated use or will suffer the purely mechanical disease-like effects. It's the emotional effect I'm worried about. This should be a strong effect that doesn't directly have mechanical effects--even low-dose environmental exposure (too low to have the rest of the effects) should create noticeable emotional effects. How can I phrase this instead of "You find yourself struggling to control your temper. The innocent statements of those around you seem infuriating and you start seeing red?"

Idea two: Emotional manipulation
Sin Seeds are an element of my setting. These parasitic thought-forms from the Far Realms-equivalent latch onto creatures and amplify/pervert their emotional response based on the creature's highest stat:

Spoiler: Sin Seeds and Abilities

Show

• STR is associated with Wrath (more precisely aggressiveness)
• DEX is associated with Sloth (working off the perversion angle--those strongly affected by this teleport because it's less work than walking across the room)
• CON is associated with Gluttony (a hunger that can't be satisfied)
• INT is associated with Hubris
• WIS is associated with Despair
• CHA is associated with Desire (the manifestation depends on the character, either as sexual passion or as greed)

When entering areas corrupted by Sin Seeds, the characters are exposed to the fringes of this emotional manipulation, pulling at them as in the spoiler. Unless they intentionally expose themselves to active Seeds, they merely have the "little voice at the back of their head" giving suggestions/a heightened emotional response. Strong characters feel aggressive, wise ones feel depressed and despairing, etc. None of this has mechanical effect, merely an avenue for role-playing and an attempt to convey the unsettling/unnatural environmental effect of these (absolutely) unnatural beings. How can I convey this best without telling the players "how their characters feel?"

Meta-issue: Impedance
One thing I find is that it's hard to verbalize the subtle clues that we would get from body-language, etc. That is, how can I describe that a character comes across as a sleeze (for example) without saying how the characters feel about it? Or expressing the emotions of an NPC that are written across his (or her) face without them actually being stated in-character? In my experience, trying to describe the externally-observable behavior of someone enough for the emotions to be clear to the players a) takes a long time and b) is fraught with misunderstanding. I'll admit that I'm not great with reading non-verbal cues myself, so that might be part of the issue. I've tended to fall back to statements like "He seems unimpressed" or "He comes across as this world's equivalent of a used-car salesman." Does this impede agency by stating how the characters feel? Or am I worrying too much?

I want to improve. Please advise.

[JBPuffin]

Meta-issue: Impedance
One thing I find is that it's hard to verbalize the subtle clues that we would get from body-language, etc. That is, how can I describe that a character comes across as a sleeze (for example) without saying how the characters feel about it? Or expressing the emotions of an NPC that are written across his (or her) face without them actually being stated in-character? In my experience, trying to describe the externally-observable behavior of someone enough for the emotions to be clear to the players a) takes a long time and b) is fraught with misunderstanding. I'll admit that I'm not great with reading non-verbal cues myself, so that might be part of the issue. I've tended to fall back to statements like "He seems unimpressed" or "He comes across as this world's equivalent of a used-car salesman." Does this impede agency by stating how the characters feel? Or am I worrying too much?

At least for this one: those are your NPCs, not their characters. Describe them however you want/need to. So long as your not describing how your players' characters think/feel/act, you're good.

[PhoenixPhyre]

At least for this one: those are your NPCs, not their characters. Describe them however you want/need to. So long as your not describing how your players' characters think/feel/act, you're good.

That misses the point (I think). How do I describe how the NPCs behavior/personality/non-verbal cues come across to the player characters? That is, how do the PCs perceive the emotions/mood/reactions of the NPCs? How can I describe this a) effectively (minimizing miscommunication), b) efficiently (without needing paragraphs for each reaction) and c) without telling the players how their characters feel/perceve?

[Psikerlord]

That misses the point (I think). How do I describe how the NPCs behavior/personality/non-verbal cues come across to the player characters? That is, how do the PCs perceive the emotions/mood/reactions of the NPCs? How can I describe this a) effectively (minimizing miscommunication), b) efficiently (without needing paragraphs for each reaction) and c) without telling the players how their characters feel/perceve?

Just dont describe the impact on the PCs. You just describe how the NPC is acting, and what they are saying, what can be observed. The players then form their own view as to whether the conduct is sleazy,etc. Maybe what you think you are describing as sleazy the players dont find so, or maybe they do. Either way so be it.

[Thrudd]

A. - you don't need to have these mind/emotion-altering substances in your game. It would be a lot simpler if you didn't.

It sounds like you are looking to describe some very subtle things, and that is probably the main issue. It's just too much detail, and not really feasible to expect most players to be able to read your cues. IMO, there's not a lot you can do about this. Just don't be that subtle, give them the broad strokes and tell them blatantly the things you want them to know/notice.

B. - To avoid taking control of the players or telling them how they should be roleplaying, you have a couple options.


Option 1 - treat it like a mind-altering spell. Make a saving throw, if they fail, you essentially take over their character for the duration of the effect. Like a fear spell, they are forced to move away as fast as they can, perhaps an anger drug might make them attack the nearest target, or a sadness drug makes them stop taking actions or have disadvantage on everything. Clear mechanical rules governing these things with relatively simple and blatant effects that impact something the players interact with in the game. They won't like losing control of their character, and having this happen too often is not a good idea, but if it is rare people can get over it - there are already some magical effects that do this, after all.

Option 2 - Describe only what the character sees and hears, and make it extreme. If you want them to be angry at someone, tell them the NPC is hurling strings of insults at them, giving them the finger, glaring, getting in their face, etc. Everything they say is over the top condescending or insulting. You know that the NPC isn't really doing that, it's the effect of the drug - but this is how the character perceives what is going on.
If another PC not affected by the drug reacts to what's happening, you tell that player that they aren't seeing the same thing - they are hearing the NPC speaking calmly and normally, and standing an appropriate distance from the other PC. Now the players can question among themselves what's going on.

Whatever the effect is, it has to be obvious, to the point of blatantly extreme, if you want the players to pick up on it and have any sort of predictable reaction. No subtle clues from body posture or tone shifts in your voice. Describe things in a way that most people would have no choice but to react to.

If the player doesn't react the way you want, well you did the best you could. Without taking control away, there's only so much you can do.

Option 3. Just tell them "your character is suddenly feeling extra angry, or extra sad and depressed. Everything just seems infuriating/depressing and you're not sure why" - or something like that
If they like to role play that, they will. If not, then oh well. If you don't want to take away control, that's where you need to leave it.

The best option, I think, is just avoid these sorts of effects except on very rare occasions. It's not a thing this sort of game can really do.

[RazorChain]

Option 3. Just tell them "your character is suddenly feeling extra angry, or extra sad and depressed. Everything just seems infuriating/depressing and you're not sure why" - or something like that
If they like to role play that, they will. If not, then oh well. If you don't want to take away control, that's where you need to leave it.

This is actually good advice, if there is trust in your group and your players have fun roleplaying they'll grab an opportunity like this.

During the course of my gaming career I've taken part in lot's of different adventures and some of them mind altering. It's usually just the best to let the player know that something is affecting the mind of his character. This doesn't limit his/her agency, it just dictates how the character feels. If there is anger involved the PC might do exactly what he does otherwise...but just be angry about it.

Once my party was imprisoned in a chaos pocket plane of madness and the GM just left it up to us how it was affecting us and boy did we go all out. My wizard managed to harness the chaos energies of the plane and change another male PC into his dream girl before we managed to escape. When the madness ran off I had some explaining to do.....and research how to change him back.

[ImNotTrevor]

I really don't see anything wrong with pointing out that an NPC is behaving sleazily. And if this is a character who the PCs should know about due to, you know, habing spent their entire lives within this world, you can just say that they recognize this particular sleazeball and know of his reputation.

[Lord Torath]

When a feeling comes from inside, you should leave that up to the players to determine. If the feeling is externally applied (an Emotion spell, Charm Person, sin seed, drug withdrawal), it's okay to tell the players how they feel.

"A giant worm erupts from the ground in front of you." - Players decide how their character feels.
"A huge dragon swoops down, blocking out the sun with its wings" - Players save vs Dragonfear (assuming that's a thing in your game), those who save can decide their reaction, those who fail must flee/cower/etc.

Telling a player that they get the feeling the well-dressed NPC in front of them is sleezy is not imposing on their agency. It's giving them sensory information about their world. Same thing for a particular sight sending goosebumps down their back. If you tell them how they have to react to that feeling, that's when you're crossing a line.

For the drug side effects, I'd tell the players there's a % chance every so many times they use it that they will go into a murderous rage (or whatever the effect is). By agreeing to use the drug, they are voluntarily giving up their agency in those cases.

[Slipperychicken]

Telling a player that they get the feeling the well-dressed NPC in front of them is sleezy is not imposing on their agency. It's giving them sensory information about their world. Same thing for a particular sight sending goosebumps down their back. If you tell them how they have to react to that feeling, that's when you're crossing a line.

This. You can also give suggestions to how a typical character might be inclined to view the dude, without telling them outright what their PCs feel. Something like "his smile and the borderline carelessness of his words suggests a sleaze", or "he looks like the kind of guy who rips off tourists for a living", or "he wouldn't look out-of-place enticing people to play three-card monte on the street".

[PhoenixPhyre]

When a feeling comes from inside, you should leave that up to the players to determine. If the feeling is externally applied (an Emotion spell, Charm Person, sin seed, drug withdrawal), it's okay to tell the players how they feel.

Good. I was hoping that was the case for most of the people who feel this way. External effects are (in my opinion) out of the character's control. How they react to them is in their control.

"A giant worm erupts from the ground in front of you." - Players decide how their character feels.
"A huge dragon swoops down, blocking out the sun with its wings" - Players save vs Dragonfear (assuming that's a thing in your game), those who save can decide their reaction, those who fail must flee/cower/etc.

Agreed.

Telling a player that they get the feeling the well-dressed NPC in front of them is sleezy is not imposing on their agency. It's giving them sensory information about their world. Same thing for a particular sight sending goosebumps down their back. If you tell them how they have to react to that feeling, that's when you're crossing a line.

Sounds good. I try to always stay away from telling how they act (unless a spell or effect compels this), but describing how their characters (who are in the world) would perceive a set of behaviors as a shorthand for describing all the behaviors and translating between cultures seemed to be a reasonable compromise.

For the drug side effects, I'd tell the players there's a % chance every so many times they use it that they will go into a murderous rage (or whatever the effect is). By agreeing to use the drug, they are voluntarily giving up their agency in those cases.

In this case, it was exceedingly unlikely that player characters would ever willingly use the drugs. Most were only exposed due to things like opening a barrel packed full of the dust with exceedingly excessive force (scattering the dust all over the place) or traps. I definitely would hang a big sign out detailing the mechanical consequences of voluntarily ingesting (or snorting, or whatever) ketra if they had expressed that desire.

[Tinkerer]

Yeah, there's a HUGE difference between telling a character "Joe seems untrustworthy" and "You don't trust Joe". One is an impression that the character gives off, the other is a blatant violation of player agency.

With the drugs there is a difference now that we know that these are being forced upon the characters rather than being something they might indulge in for the bonuses (you don't get to snort a giant bag of pure rage and then tell me your character isn't angry). Mainly due to the frequency of exposure that you seem to be talking about there, I could be mistaken. I wouldn't have it come up more than a very small number of times over the course of this campaign, probably limiting it to about 3 absolute tops. Once would probably be more effective. Plus if word gets out that this organization is loading their traps with their extremely addictive drug they are going to be swarmed by junkies looking for a fix. As a real life example imagine if a heroin dealer decided to protect his stash by setting up a trap which injects the intruder with heroin. Not a smart plan.

For your seed plan I've found the best course of action is to talk to everyone privately about how it affects them. That leaves the player in complete control, they can ask you any relevant questions without disrupting the flow of events, they aren't having their characters mindset exposed to the rest of the table, and it makes them feel like they are in on a secret. In fact for most mind altering experiences I've found the discussion should take place in private.