How do Japanese-style campaigns work out?

[CrackedChair]

So I am a real fan of Japanese history. Not that I am a weeb or something, it's just a keen interest in Feudal Japan.

I wanted to know about how campaigns in the style of Feudal Japan could be played out. I know that there's an entry in the Dungeon master's guide for 5th edition that states how campaigns are under the 'wuxia' style campaigns and that there's a monster literally called an Oni (Which is pretty much just an Ogre that can cast magic and is kinda like a Bogeyman.), but I don't know how stuff like this can be transfered into D&D. Could somebody enlighten me?

[Vitruviansquid]

I think Japan is great.

The Sengoku period and the Edo period are both very flavorful for a campaign setting with many existing tropes to tap into and play with.

[BRC]

It depends on how much you care.

I'm running such a campaign right now (Albiet with my own mythology), and it's taken very little modification. Mostly, it's just a matter of Flavor. Whatever armor somebody has is "Basically Full Plate", so we stat it as such, ect ect.

If you really care about accuracy and such, it gets more difficult. IIRC, Feudal Japanese armors didn't use as much metal, so a lot of Heavy armor doesn't really work if you insist that Chainmail be actual Chainmail, full plate be european-style full plate, ect ect.

A big thing is, in order to get the feel right, the weapons used shift a little. I've gone heavy on Glaives and wielding longswords two-handed, to represent katanas and polearms as battlefield weapons, rather than greatswords and such. I don't know how historically accurate that is, but it fits the image in my mind.

For me, the biggest problems is Names. I've mostly been using IMDB, and mashing together names for people who worked on Akira Kurosawa movies.

[FreddyNoNose]

So I am a real fan of Japanese history. Not that I am a weeb or something, it's just a keen interest in Feudal Japan.

I wanted to know about how campaigns in the style of Feudal Japan could be played out. I know that there's an entry in the Dungeon master's guide for 5th edition that states how campaigns are under the 'wuxia' style campaigns and that there's a monster literally called an Oni (Which is pretty much just an Ogre that can cast magic and is kinda like a Bogeyman.), but I don't know how stuff like this can be transfered into D&D. Could somebody enlighten me?

Bushido plays very well as a campaign. I highly recommend it.

In Bushido ONI: Oni are Supernatural Beings bridging the gap between the Spirits of the invisible realms and the mortal creatures of this earth.

[Jama7301]

The biggest issue I can see for a historical fiction setting is how much you play into the "fiction" part, and how much will the players and GM agree on it. It's not any different really from running a game in the Forgotten Realms. You have your people, places, and events that you can use, it's just a matter of deciding what you use.

[Knaight]

It depends on how historically accurate you want to make it. Could you get up to a level of historicity comparable to nominally European D&D campaigns, but in Japan? Sure, and it will take being selective with monsters and allowed classes, and even then "selective" translates to knocking out a few classes that hew really closely to European sources (Paladin has got to go, Warlock is pushing it) and leaving the rest - and in the very first editions you don't even need to do that. The more historical you get the less the system fits, but you can certainly get a broad aesthetic across easily enough.

[FreddyNoNose]

The biggest issue I can see for a historical fiction setting is how much you play into the "fiction" part, and how much will the players and GM agree on it. It's not any different really from running a game in the Forgotten Realms. You have your people, places, and events that you can use, it's just a matter of deciding what you use.

Bushido solved this problem by calling the location Nippon instead of Japan. By doing that, any "differences" are acceptable because this is Nippon not historical Japan. Naturally there are some punk players who can't grok that.

[Honest Tiefling]

For me, the biggest problems is Names. I've mostly been using IMDB, and mashing together names for people who worked on Akira Kurosawa movies.

Please look at this site. I cannot guarantee all of the names are accurate (some may be pulled from historical records that were translated, or debunked ones), but it is certainly a good place to start for names that don't sound too anglo in my opinion.

If you use 5e edition (and I know you're in those forums, hiiiii) then one potential problem I could see is that archery is more optimized with the rapier, not the longsword. I think the latter is a little easier to refluff as a katana and has the versatile property. I do vaguely recall that most samurai trained in both swordsmanship and archery, so maybe a tweak of the rules to make it more optimized would not be out of place.

[Dragonexx]

If your creating a fantasy setting based on japan, your best sources of inspiration would be Inuyasha, Rurouni Kenshin, Touhou, Katanagatari, Oboro Muramasa (aka Muramasa: the Demon Blade) if you can get ahold of it as well as Okami. Things like that. Possibly Avatar as well, though not strictly necessary.

I'm currently running an asian inspired setting myself, if you want any more advice feel free to ask.

[Knaight]

If your creating a fantasy setting based on japan, your best sources of inspiration would be Inuyasha, Rurouni Kenshin, Touhou, Katanagatari, Oboro Muramasa (aka Muramasa: the Demon Blade) if you can get ahold of it as well as Okami. Things like that. Possibly Avatar as well, though not strictly necessary.

Using a source list made entirely out of videogames and anime is definitely one option - however, the OP specified that they were interested in feudal japan and "not a weeb", and as such is more likely to benefit from historical research, biographies, old literature, and reputable sources in general.

[CrackedChair]

Using a source list made entirely out of videogames and anime is definitely one option - however, the OP specified that they were interested in feudal japan and "not a weeb", and as such is more likely to benefit from historical research, biographies, old literature, and reputable sources in general.

I mean, I like Historic Japan, but I do like the fantasy stuff that comes from it too, stuff like Youkai, Demons and spirits, as well as the other stuff you'd get from a D&D experience, just made for a Japanese setting.

Anime and Manga tropes and the like can still be acceptable, I am just not too sure in a setting like D&D it's used as often.

I heard there was some places in the Forgotten Realms called Kozakura, which is basically Japan in a feudal age, but in 5th edition, it's barely mentioned, aside from the offside mention in the Sword Coast Adventurer guide.

[Dragonexx]

My point is that if your building a fantasy setting based on japan, then your best sources of information and inspiration are the fantasy stories the Japanese tell.

[Blackhawk748]

Using a source list made entirely out of videogames and anime is definitely one option - however, the OP specified that they were interested in feudal japan and "not a weeb", and as such is more likely to benefit from historical research, biographies, old literature, and reputable sources in general.

Well, Ruroni Kenshin is a (semi)realistic anime. Yes there is a bunch of ridiculous stuff, but no one is shooting lasers out of swords or anything like that. It is set in the Edo period, so be aware of that. Samurai Champloo is another good one.

[goto124]

Bushido solved this problem by calling the location Nippon instead of Japan. By doing that, any "differences" are acceptable because this is Nippon not historical Japan. Naturally there are some punk players who can't grok that.

What is this "Japan" you speak of? I have never heard of it before.

[Thrudd]

Bushido solved this problem by calling the location Nippon instead of Japan. By doing that, any "differences" are acceptable because this is Nippon not historical Japan. Naturally there are some punk players who can't grok that.

We're supposed to know it isn't historical because they use the Japanese (Nihongo) word for Japan? I mean, they could call it anything else vaguely Japanese-ish, like Rokugan or Kamigawa or whatever.

[Knaight]

My point is that if your building a fantasy setting based on japan, then your best sources of information and inspiration are the fantasy stories the Japanese tell.

I don't dispute that - it's the restriction to anime and videogames specifically. "The Japanese" in the terms of storytellers is a somewhat larger category than the producers of anime and videogames, and it really wouldn't hurt to pick up an actual book.

[FreddyNoNose]

We're supposed to know it isn't historical because they use the Japanese (Nihongo) word for Japan? I mean, they could call it anything else vaguely Japanese-ish, like Rokugan or Kamigawa or whatever.

You are suppose to know because you have a brain, can think, and can understand contextual usage. YMMV.

[Faily]

You are suppose to know because you have a brain, can think, and can understand contextual usage. YMMV.

So... we're supposed to know that Nippon is Japan, but it's also not Japan because it's called Nippon? "Solving" the problem by calling Japan Nippon would be like wanting to run a Viking-campaign, but calling the country Norge instead of Norway. It's just... silly.


On topic: I would (of course) recommend Legend of the Five Rings for that feudal samurai drama... depending on how you want to run it, you can reduce or greatly limit the supernatural elements there (making shugenja more rare, few to no encounters with monsters), or notch it up to 11 with the mystical stuff. I've run one campaign that had only one encounter with Shadowlands monsters, as most of the focus was on intrigue (trying to overthrow the conspiracy that is controlling the Emperor and helping the Emperor's oldest child to make her rightful claim for the throne). And I've got a long-running slow game that has a super-high supernatural-level with the founding Kami being reborn and lots of spiritual balance-stuff going on (though this one I did actually set in the Sengoku period in Japan, but basically just ported over almost all of L5R's stuff).

[Anonymouswizard]

Bushido solved this problem by calling the location Nippon instead of Japan. By doing that, any "differences" are acceptable because this is Nippon not historical Japan. Naturally there are some punk players who can't grok that.

Ah, the old 'it's not China, it's Shen Zhou' defence. Although isn't Nippon an actual name for Japan that still gets some use? I definitely see it in older books, such as the Skylark of Space, and I believe it even appears in Snow Crash. It's certainly not unusual to see 'Nippon' and immediately think 'Japan'.

Is this the same common sense that makes me ignore everything about Star Wars's aesthetic other than it being in space? This is the second time I've seen you arguing people who disagree with you aren't perceptive enough in a fortnight (although this time it's slightly more legitimate).

OP, my first recommendation would be a specialised system. If you were asking for China I'd recommend either Qin: the Warring States (which is rather accurate for 200BCE) or Legends of the Wulin, but unfortunately I'm not as into Japan and so only own Legend of the Five Rings.

[Prime32]

will take being selective with monsters and allowed classes, and even then "selective" translates to knocking out a few classes that hew really closely to European sources (Paladin has got to go, Warlock is pushing it) and leaving the rest

Both of those seem fine to me. Lots of spiritual swordsmen out there, and lots of guys making pacts that bind their family line to an evil spirit.

Though I could see Bard and Sorcerer being restricted to supernatural beings and characters with an inhuman parent (i.e. you don't get a template from it, just the ability to take levels in those classes).

Binders are also likely to be cherished rather than hated.

[Arbane]

If your creating a fantasy setting based on japan, your best sources of inspiration would be Inuyasha, Rurouni Kenshin, Touhou, Katanagatari, Oboro Muramasa (aka Muramasa: the Demon Blade) if you can get ahold of it as well as Okami. Things like that. Possibly Avatar as well, though not strictly necessary.

I'm currently running an asian inspired setting myself, if you want any more advice feel free to ask.

My first thought when I read this was "Oh, god, NO!". Read some actual history, or at least watch a few Akira Kurosawa movies.

Edit: For RPG-specific stuff, get hold of a copy of Bushido, Usagi Yojimbo (yes, it's funny animals, but the writer does his research), or GURPS Japan. Or possibly Tenra Bansho Zero (a Japanese-made RPG that has about as much in common with medieval Japan as D&D does with medieval Europe. It's awesome.)

[Friv]

Ah, the old 'it's not China, it's Shen Zhou' defence. Although isn't Nippon an actual name for Japan that still gets some use? I definitely see it in older books, such as the Skylark of Space, and I believe it even appears in Snow Crash. It's certainly not unusual to see 'Nippon' and immediately think 'Japan'.

Not so much "still gets some actual use" as "is the actual current official name of the country", yeah. "Nippon" or "Nihon" is what the people of Japan call the current nation of Japan.

It's like setting a game in Germany and calling it Deutschland - that's not a fantasy equivalent, it's just the place's name. It's just using the accurate name from the source language, because one of the weird quirks of language is that we call a lot of countries by weird names instead of the names they call themselves.

[Martin Greywolf]

Well, if you call Japan feudal, then you're not that into its history - these days, we don't even call European kingdoms feudal any more.

Setting a campaign there, well. It's an uphill battle.

No matter whether you'll have straight up Sengoku Jidai Japan or a fantasy counterpart inspired by it, you'll have a ton of problems, and I mean a ton. Problem number one is your players - are they familiar with Japanese culture, are they familiar more or are they familiar with different aspects of it? Since I assume none of you are Japanese, there will be problems there if you want to keep to it strictly, you know that fact A is true, someone else knows that fact B is true and calls you out on it, someone else thinks that A is definitely not true - basically all the rules arguments, but with culture too.

This can be overcome, but only is all people at the table really want to play in Japan, not just the DM, otherwise they'll be wondering why they didn't just roll a dwarf.

Then there is the problem of historicity vs the popular culture. If your players are expecting to romp around the countryside during Edo without their paperwork, they'll get stomped on. If they want to rise to samurai rank during Edo, they get stomped on for even mentioning it. There are also all the little details that will spring up on you and stop you cold - if a player wants to build a house in a village, where does he go to get a permit? Does he need one? What about a fortified home, does that change the situation at all? (Don't know about Japan, but FYI you sometimes do need a permit, sometimes verbal, sometimes written, in medieval Europe.)

Your best shot at this is to use a counterpart loosely inspired by Japan, have a very thorough conversation with players about what you and they want out of this game, and then and only then start playing. You will also have to tell your players what is and is not expected of them in every damn situation at first, and that can get old fast.

tl;dr It can work with the right people, but communication is key and you'll find out you don't know a LOT of things every five seconds.

[Zombimode]

Well, if you call Japan feudal, then you're not that into its history - these days, we don't even call European kingdoms feudal any more.

Sure, but maybe Japan was feudal under the same sense of the word as European Kingdoms are feudal

[Anonymouswizard]

Not so much "still gets some actual use" as "is the actual current official name of the country", yeah. "Nippon" or "Nihon" is what the people of Japan call the current nation of Japan.

Ah, I thought they were two separate words. Good to know.

It's like setting a game in Germany and calling it Deutschland - that's not a fantasy equivalent, it's just the place's name. It's just using the accurate name from the source language, because one of the weird quirks of language is that we call a lot of countries by weird names instead of the names they call themselves.

I mean, I've considered setting a game in medieval Germany, although I'd be unlikely to use Deutschland for various reasons I mean, I can mentally separate the England I was born in with the fantasy England presented in Victoriana, and they use the same name, I don't think I'd ever try to go 'to make sure you get this is fantasy land I'm using a different name'.

I'd rather play in 'fantasy England' than 'Albion', but I don't give a care if we're in 'Germany' or 'Deutschland'.

[Brother Oni]

Well, Ruroni Kenshin is a (semi)realistic anime. Yes there is a bunch of ridiculous stuff, but no one is shooting lasers out of swords or anything like that. It is set in the Edo period, so be aware of that. Samurai Champloo is another good one.

Minor nitpick - Rurouni Kenshin is set during the Bakumatsu Civil war and Meiji periods, so tail-end and post Edo period. I highly recommend the Trust and Betrayal OAV for a realistic version of Kenshin; I'd peg the TV series as around the low power end of the fantasy spectrum.

Ah, I thought they were two separate words. Good to know.

You could use Yamato or Wa as those were pre-Nippon/Nihon names for Japan, much the same as Albion was used for ancient England.

There's also the literal translation of Nippon that can be used - the Land of the Rising Sun much like China's The Middle Kingdom, but that's a bit too well known.

[Joe the Rat]

So... we're supposed to know that Nippon is Japan, but it's also not Japan because it's called Nippon? "Solving" the problem by calling Japan Nippon would be like wanting to run a Viking-campaign, but calling the country Norge instead of Norway. It's just... silly.

That's why I named my Ersatz Japan Jidaigeki. It makes even less sense.

On topic: I would (of course) recommend Legend of the Five Rings for that feudal samurai drama... depending on how you want to run it, you can reduce or greatly limit the supernatural elements there (making shugenja more rare, few to no encounters with monsters), or notch it up to 11 with the mystical stuff. I've run one campaign that had only one encounter with Shadowlands monsters, as most of the focus was on intrigue (trying to overthrow the conspiracy that is controlling the Emperor and helping the Emperor's oldest child to make her rightful claim for the throne). And I've got a long-running slow game that has a super-high supernatural-level with the founding Kami being reborn and lots of spiritual balance-stuff going on (though this one I did actually set in the Sengoku period in Japan, but basically just ported over almost all of L5R's stuff).

Seconding this - L5R is an amazing resource for Nihonesque games (though I'd take a light hand if you port the honor system - it can easily turn into "punish players for not knowing the culture"). The 3.5 version of Oriental Adventures was basically a d20 Rokugan sourcebook, if you want something a little closer to "home" for reference.

[Corsair14]

If I were to run it, I would do a 2nd edition Oriental adventures(I know it was 1st ed but it transfers over easy). The classes are already there, there is an honor system in place and you have at least a complete Monstrous compendium for Oriental adventures that has a good mix of fantasy critters to add in. That old book is by far my favorite single book ever made for DnD(AD&D).

As someone who has extensively done research into construction of arms and armor of the later feudal Japanese eras(when they looked "cool." They actually did use quite a bit of metal. Even though Japanese metal ore was inferior by far to European ore, their smiths were that much better because of it. Chain isn't worn like Europeans wear it in shirts, instead its woven onto leather or cloth backing and is part of a larger armor set. Instead of single big plates like European late armor, it was segmented plate sections. Turtle shell armor(I forget the actual name off hand) were small metal discs plates between several layers of cloth used to protect areas too difficult to armor with segments or in areas needing extra protection like the neck and shoulders, greaves and sometimes upper arms. While I wouldn't say it was more effective armor than European armor, it was extremely functional. Oh and if anyone ever tells you they used wooden armor, just walk away. That's the same person that will tell you Vikings had horns on their helms(which Samurai did do but they were balsa type wood and not structural so if they took a whack to the head it would simply sheer the horn off and not jerk the head, and it was also a recognition thing kind of like heraldry on sheilds).

Get away from the Katana is the greatest sword EVAR! It wasn't. The process of building it however is amazing and far more advanced than Europe. But they had to. Using the same methods Europeans did with non-"Damascus" steel would make a weapon so brittle it wasn't funny. Japan has poor quality iron ore so they became masters of metal working to get the most out of it they could. Even still while structurally as good as Damascus steel, it was still a very easily breakable weapon. I have seen a sword made by a master disintegrate when a trained user accidently hit a triple bamboo target wrong. Thus katanas were rarely used in actual combat, kind of like how swords were more of a symbol in Europe than a real combat weapon since people wore armor. Spears were the most common weapon for Samurai, infantry and cavalry, all the way to the time when gunpowder became the norm. Archery was an artform the Japanese perfected and used as well. The diakyu is still used today in martial arts and is a stupidly powerful bow. Naginatas were mostly a woman's weapon. Theres a whole art form around them too. Weirdly enough it was used in a swiping spinning form than a straight up chopping method and ankles of opponents were prime targets.

[Anonymouswizard]

Get away from the Katana is the greatest sword EVAR! It wasn't. The process of building it however is amazing and far more advanced than Europe. But they had to.

^{[citation needed]}

Using the same methods Europeans did with non-"Damascus" steel would make a weapon so brittle it wasn't funny. Japan has poor quality iron ore so they became masters of metal working to get the most out of it they could. Even still while structurally as good as Damascus steel, it was still a very easily breakable weapon. I have seen a sword made by a master disintegrate when a trained user accidently hit a triple bamboo target wrong. Thus katanas were rarely used in actual combat, kind of like how swords were more of a symbol in Europe than a real combat weapon since people wore armor. Spears were the most common weapon for Samurai, infantry and cavalry, all the way to the time when gunpowder became the norm. Archery was an artform the Japanese perfected and used as well. The diakyu is still used today in martial arts and is a stupidly powerful bow. Naginatas were mostly a woman's weapon. Theres a whole art form around them too. Weirdly enough it was used in a swiping spinning form than a straight up chopping method and ankles of opponents were prime targets.

Seriously, every time I've seen it discussed it's generally come out as either 'worse metalsmithing than Europe' or 'the same level of metalsmithing'. Because Europeans could use the exact same techniques Japan did, they just had no need to as swords were good enough. Then they discovered how to make better quality steel than Japan's folding ever could, either because they were more advanced or because they had access to better iron. European smiths could on average work metal just as good as a Japanese smith, I'm sure if you trained a smith the same way as a Japanese smith and then gave him iron as good as Europe's I suspect he wouldn't spend so much time per blade.

The rest of this is quite good though, barring the 'Naginatas were mostly a woman's weapon'. Weren't they the primary weapon for Samurai at one point? (then the Yari arrived/gained popularity and the women got the 'obsolete' weapons)

[Airk]

So yeah.

A) I wouldn't try to run too "Historical" a game, because that gets you into the mess that this thread is rapidly devolving into as the amateur historians one-up each other. I suggest either a "Mythic Japan" game, with monsters and magic and a roughly D&D level of "Historical" (i.e. "Some things may bear some passing resemblance to history, but they are largely divorced of context") or a "Movie Japan" that's designed to model "Historical" Japan in about the same way that, oh, Kurosawa films do. (There's some historical context, and a minimum of monsters/magic, but a lot of things are more 'cinema' than 'history')
B) Don't do it in D&D. You'll either end up with a game that feels like D&D with a thin coat of paint, or you'll spend tons of time reskinning stuff and still end up with a sortof strange feeling game. There are LOTS of games out there that will cover these genres, and frankly, $10 for a PDF of a game designed from the ground up for your experience is a way better deal than like 50 hours of your time reskinning D&D. Yeah, yeah, great, your group only knows D&D. They didn't come out of the womb with that knowledge, learning another game won't kill them, and if they're actually interested in a Japan game (I agree with the earlier poster who asserted that you need full buy-in here, though that's basically the rule for any game) they'll appreciate the payoff.

Some suggestions:

• Legend of the Five Rings: Definitely the LEAST Japanese game on this list, but for some reason moderately popular. I can't speak for the mechanics, though I suspect they appeal to the D&D-ish urge to have lots of mechanically distinct not-necessarily-classes, but the lore/world is best not inspected too closely. I wouldn't actually recommend it, but a list without it would seem incomplete.
• Blood & Honor and World of Dew: Putting these two together because they are... closely tied, since they use essentially the same system. Blood & Honor is about Samurai during the Warring States period, while World of Dew is about various sorts of people living in a City during the Edo period. Both are pretty focused on character drama, and the mechanics are pretty distinct from traditional RPGs in that you roll for narration rights rather than success/failure. Pretty cool stuff though.
• Bushido: Oldie, but apparently still a goodie. Relatively speaking. Pretty oldschool, very traditional RPG stuff here. Relatively historical game too. Probably a good resource just to read even if you don't play it.
• Ninja Crusade: This is... basically Naruto. :P It's about "ninja" with all kinds of nutso powers fighting each other/some "Empire". Makes no bones about not really being Japan.
• Tenra Bansho Zero: The only game in this entire thread that was actually made in Japan. Therefore, probably the closest thing you'll find to some sort of "Forgotten Realms" analogue, because it's pseudo-historical-mythic fantasy as created from a Japanese viewpoint (as opposed to FR, which is pseudo-historical-mythic fantasy as created by an American viewpoint.) Has no pretensions towards "historical" or even pseudo-historical, but the setting is basically Sengoku Japan with summoning magic and crazy high-tech war technologies (You might have a 15 foot high mecha-like robot in your army, but you're still farming rice by hand). Super amazing game, actually, but you can find me raving about it elsewhere on this forum easily enough.