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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Hiro Quester's Avatar

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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Honestly this is the best answer so far. Great job.
    Thanks. I have been thinking about this PrC for a few years, and trying to find good ways to justify it to myself.

    It might not be the best gish out there, but it looks like a very fun gish, nonetheless.

    And I am so going to sig that response.
    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    This. This sooooo much. I wasn't expecting *two* thread wins from you.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post


    And you just lost a bunch of caster levels. The point is not that you need persist. The point is that persist is better for buffing than time stop, and you gave up too many caster levels to be a good time stop blaster.



    Most of the time arcane spellsurge + Invisible Spell will be roughly as good action economy and lets you be an Incantatrix (admittedly, only for Sorcerers). Or just be able to cast shapechange earlier and pick up any of a dozen extra action abilities. Or Primal Scholar + celerity. None of those cost any caster levels.

    The synergy of Arcane Strike and having a BAB is kind of meaningless compared to the synergy of Arcane Strike and being polymorphed into e.g. an Octopus to make eight or more attacks per round, on top of whatever else you get from buffs. You might get a marginally bigger to hit bonus from more BAB, but if you're missing you're doing it wrong.
    Yeah so shapechange for extra actions on top of having an Ex extra action.

    Yeah so cast celerity as your swift action on top of having the extra action.

    Yeah so Polymorph, Power Attack, and Arcane Strike all. Or better yet, use your Polymorph, become a Hydra, and use all of your heads as a Standard Action twice with Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Swift Surge +2d6, plus other buffs... (This is an especially OFFENSIVE argument you're making here, considering what I was saying was a response to someone saying a gish class can't be used to do damage).

    It's frankly wrong to claim losing 3 caster levels is an issue. 4 is a problem, as that will ACTUALLY deny you game breaking potential, except Simulacrum. Simulcra only take a 7th level spell to make, and be used to emulate any spell anyway, so the benefit of having any other ninths when you're going full OP doesn't matter, because CL 13 already wins you the game. And again, the benefits of Incantatrix are pretty swell, but as far as Metamagic Effect goes, that's a 3 level dip in Incant that will fit in a Swiftblade build, or a One level Dip in Spelldancer. You won't be Mailman, but that's a different dedicated build entirely. Both a swiftblade and Incantatrix can slaughter a regular foe perfectly fine, and both can cast perfectly fine, so to say Swiftblade isn't powerful is patently false.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Yeah so shapechange for extra actions on top of having an Ex extra action.

    Yeah so cast celerity as your swift action on top of having the extra action.
    Or, uh, get other class features? Like, yeah, those stack. But the point is that you can get extra actions and also a better PrC.

    Yeah so Polymorph, Power Attack, and Arcane Strike all. Or better yet, use your Polymorph, become a Hydra, and use all of your heads as a Standard Action twice with Power Attack, Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Swift Surge +2d6, plus other buffs... (This is an especially OFFENSIVE argument you're making here, considering what I was saying was a response to someone saying a gish class can't be used to do damage).
    Again, polymorph + Arcane Strike is a massively lower cost than Swiftblade. Yes, you can get really big numbers this way. Cool. Those numbers are, like, super big. But the difference between one and two thousand is not really worth a caster level, let alone three.

    It's frankly wrong to claim losing 3 caster levels is an issue.
    Having casting worse than your cohort is an issue. Looking at this as if the only thing that matters is 20th is wrong. You are behind for most of the game, and "hey, I've got this extra action" is kind of a bad deal when the other guy has shapechange and also is an Incantatrix.

    Swiftblade isn't powerful is patently false.
    Everything you think is awesome about Swiftblade you can get way cheaper from just casting spells, which you are better at doing if you are not a Swiftblade. This is not complicated.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    You wants to be a king of extra actions? Go for planar shepherd as others pointed out and go for the time wombo combo where you get 10turns while others only get to make a single turn. Now you can break action economy for real.

    No, I really just wanted to say it as said: It's a master of none. Sry for that, but just mho ;)
    Well, wizards can't be druids, and if we're comparing Swiftblade to Planar Shepard, then we're comparing it to one of the most powerful classe,s using cheese no less, then it's strong.

    Also I will return the winky face. MHO it's a good use of it. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Or, uh, get other class features? Like, yeah, those stack. But the point is that you can get extra actions and also a better PrC.
    NO you can't. That's level 15. If you're going to hold up a couple of levels and say a Swiftblade cannot get ninths, I'll hold up level 15 and point out that you don't have then either. :l
    Again, polymorph + Arcane Strike is a massively lower cost than Swiftblade. Yes, you can get really big numbers this way. Cool. Those numbers are, like, super big. But the difference between one and two thousand is not really worth a caster level, let alone three.
    Uh, but that's the case with Incantatrix. THIS IS THE POINT I MADE when I said both would utterly destroy their targets when played correctly.
    Having casting worse than your cohort is an issue.
    Prove it. Ice Assassin is considered a power 9th level spell for the same things Simulacrum does. 9th ain't nothing but tricks at that point.
    Looking at this as if the only thing that matters is 20th is wrong. You are behind for most of the game, and "hey, I've got this extra action" is kind of a bad deal when the other guy has shapechange and also is an Incantatrix.
    Level 15 the swift blade effectively quickens all of their spells. There's only a few levels until 20 and a swiftblade has Shapechange too. So it hasn't actually cost you 9ths overall. They do have *A* 9th level spell if they want to take it, and they do have *ALL* of the spells in a similiar manner to Cleric casting Gate.
    Everything you think is awesome about Swiftblade you can get way cheaper from just casting spells, which you are better at doing if you are not a Swiftblade. This is not complicated.
    Casting + Class Feature. They don't exist in a vacuum any more than the Incantatrix does. Swiftblade is a powerful gish, that also can do powerful casting, by using a strong action economy (effectively quicken every spell) as opposed to a strong metamagic economy.

    It's difficult. Please stop holding the wool over your own eyes, copying an argument and using what is admittedly one of the most powerful caster class in the game, "Swiftblade is garbage because it's not instant win Mailman," rather than whether or not it's powerful. Caster levels mean something very specific when people say not to lose them, but this old lesson we have held dear before 3.5 killed itself isn't entirely accurate. We have all of the power we could ever need in 13 levels due to simulacrum. If you're making a gish build, and you want Time Stop over Shapechange (it's a preference), you have the option to take the 10th level, and you would have lost nothing.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2017-07-31 at 12:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    NO you can't. That's level 15. If you're going to hold up a couple of levels and say a Swiftblade cannot get ninths, I'll hold up level 15 and point out that you don't have then either. :l
    At 15th level the Sorcerer/Incantatrix has arcane spellsurge (actually, he has it at 14th). Oh, and he can take e.g. Shadowcraft Mage as well. And he actually gets 7th level spells, whereas you're still on 6ths. This comparison looks super bad for you, because Swiftblade is actually not a good deal.

    Uh, but that's the case with Incantatrix. THIS IS THE POINT I MADE when I said both would utterly destroy their targets when played correctly.
    Do you not see the difference between paying a feat and a 4th level slot for Arcane Strike and polymorph versus two feats, nine PrC levels, and three caster levels?

    Prove it. Ice Assassin is considered a power 9th level spell for the same things Simulacrum does. 9th ain't nothing but tricks at that point.
    ... do you not know the difference between ice assassin and simulacrum? ice assassin is nuts because it's a zero effort infinite loop. The fact that simulacrum is also good doesn't really rate here. You can win the game at 11th with planar binding. Doesn't make shapechange worthless. If you want to argue about how you can cheese the game, why are you even restraining yourself to spells? Candles of Invocation can be bought with gold, which you still have even if you light all your caster levels on fire. Clearly, Commoners are just as good as Wizards on that basis.

    "Swiftblade is garbage because it's not instant win Mailman," rather than whether or not it's powerful.
    Did I say it was garbage? No. I said there's nothing the class does you can't do better somewhere else, and it cripples your casting to boot. I'm sure you can make a powerful Swiftblade. But you're always leaving power on the table, because you can get all the things you're crowing about without losing caster levels.

    If you're making a gish build, and you want Time Stop over Shapechange (it's a preference), you have the option to take the 10th level, and you would have lost nothing.
    I mean, I guess you can want whatever you want, but acting like time stop versus shapechange is remotely close is admitting you have no idea how any of this works and are basically just Markov Chaining arrogance and incredulity in an effort to prop up your pet class. shapechange is probably the flat best thing you can do with 9th level spell slots. time stop is a third tier option at best, because it makes you win one fight instead of making you win the game.

    Go back to whining about how you don't understand why the game has levels.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    At 15th level the Sorcerer/Incantatrix has arcane spellsurge (actually, he has it at 14th). Oh, and he can take e.g. Shadowcraft Mage as well. And he actually gets 7th level spells, whereas you're still on 6ths. This comparison looks super bad for you, because Swiftblade is actually not a good deal.
    Well, the Swiftblade can take Wizard6/Swiftblade9/ShadowcraftMage5. I wouldn't want to but there are class levels there. .-.

    At 15th level, having the extra action is more than having just spellsurge, since your swift action is still free to cast actually quickened spells or spellsurged spells when you get it.

    Do you not see the difference between paying a feat and a 4th level slot for Arcane Strike and polymorph versus two feats, nine PrC levels, and three caster levels?
    Not the point I was making. You said that difference between 2k damage and 1k damage wasn't a big deal. So I pointed out that I agreed that overkill is overkill.

    ... do you not know the difference between ice assassin and simulacrum? ice assassin is nuts because it's a zero effort infinite loop. The fact that simulacrum is also good doesn't really rate here. You can win the game at 11th with planar binding. Doesn't make shapechange worthless. If you want to argue about how you can cheese the game, why are you even restraining yourself to spells? Candles of Invocation can be bought with gold, which you still have even if you light all your caster levels on fire. Clearly, Commoners are just as good as Wizards on that basis.

    I mean, I guess you can want whatever you want, but acting like time stop versus shapechange is remotely close is admitting you have no idea how any of this works and are basically just Markov Chaining arrogance and incredulity in an effort to prop up your pet class. shapechange is probably the flat best thing you can do with 9th level spell slots. time stop is a third tier option at best, because it makes you win one fight instead of making you win the game.
    [/quote] So planar binding is a game winner. If you can replicate every spell in the game through that in the same way you could with Simulacrum, then shapechange is pointless if you duplicate can be that of a Sarrukh and manipulate your form to give you abilities. Cheesy? Sure, but if we're not doing it we're leaving power on the table. Now, I am not saying Time Stop is the best spell, what I am saying is that point I don't think it's a big deal. Like I said earlier, Incantatrix or Swiftblade you should be kicking ass.

    So for the record, every time you move the CL lower to win the game, I become more right in that CL loss isn't a big deal. So, do you have any earlier game winners to prop up my argument, because I am SO ignorant that you're winning the argument for me. Thank you Cosi, for proving my point for me.

    Warlock is my pet class, for the record. Also, we aren't using candles of invocation because it's a class discussion, not an item discussion. Generally, I don't like itemization as much as the next guy, it seems.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2017-07-31 at 12:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Itís worth pointing out the value of using a time-stop for situation-specific spells and for BFC, not just for buffing.

    So the persistomsncer vs time stop comparison isnít quite fair.

    In a time stop you can also do things like cast silence on a pebble next to the enemy caster, summon a monster to tear him to pieces, then cast force cage or solid fog around him and the monster, and dimension lock the area.

    You can also spam a delayed-blast fireball so they overlap, set to go off as soon as TS ends. Or drop your Druid friendís fire seeds right at his feet, and be ready to tell Druid to detonate when TS ends.

    You can drop a few BFC effects around the enemy, to divide them from one another.

    You can Assay spell resistance vs the enemy (a self buff that must be cast while in view of the target). And with a known-duration time stop ready an action, in the last round of TS to blast him with your best Save or die (vs his worst save) as soon as the time stop ends.

    Comparing TS to pre-buffing with persistent spells is missing a whole bunch of advantages you can gain by exploiting the known-duration Time Stop for things other than self-buffing.

    Plus with the right character design you can take persistent spell and take 10 levels of Swiftblade. Canít you?
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    The thread seems to have come down to:

    "I like all my caster levels!"

    versus

    "I'm OK with trading some of my caster levels (1-4) for neat-sounding class features."

    Remember, you can shapechange into a Chronotyryn (Fiend Folio) at level 17 and get dual actions. That's two full rounds of actions compared to others' one. This comes online later than an ASAP Swiftblade unless you do ahead-of-the-curve casting, probably with Kobold Loredrakes or Beholder Mages or Ur-Priests with access to shapechange.

    Optimization-wise, I may be OK with Swiftblade losing 1 caster level to start, but, debatably, Eldritch Knight and Jade Phoenix Mage are better investments. Or, full Wizard casting (Incantatrix, etc.).
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Endarire View Post
    The thread seems to have come down to:

    "I like all my caster levels!"

    versus

    "I'm OK with trading some of my caster levels (1-4) for neat-sounding class features."

    Remember, you can shapechange into a Chronotyryn (Fiend Folio) at level 17 and get dual actions. That's two full rounds of actions compared to others' one. This comes online later than an ASAP Swiftblade unless you do ahead-of-the-curve casting, probably with Kobold Loredrakes or Beholder Mages or Ur-Priests with access to shapechange.

    Optimization-wise, I may be OK with Swiftblade losing 1 caster level to start, but, debatably, Eldritch Knight and Jade Phoenix Mage are better investments. Or, full Wizard casting (Incantatrix, etc.).
    While your point is fairly valid, you're missing the point where Swiftblade is definitely *NOT* a primary casting PrC. So when we're talking power levels, why would we compare it to full casting PrC's? It's a gish class, and it does that very well. Isn't that the answer to this thread?
    Pointing to literally the most powerful options in this game will make anything seem sort of disappointing, but guess what, in a real game, WHO CARES if your Swiftblade isn't as strong as an Incantatrix? If you wanted that, you would've built it.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Optimization-wise, I may be OK with Swiftblade losing 1 caster level to start, but, debatably, Eldritch Knight and Jade Phoenix Mage are better investments. Or, full Wizard casting (Incantatrix, etc.).
    We are talking about gishes here, so comparing the Swiftblade to a full caster prestice class is honestly just as silly as comparing it to a rogue or a bard.

    And honestly, even for an old prestice class then Swiftblade does have a lot of surprisingly useful class features, that comes online relatively early. Blurred alacricy and sudden casting comes online early enough that you can reasonably expect to get some uses out of them. And they combine 2 of the better arcane buffs in 1 swift action activation. And as a little side bonus then this means you also haste the rest of your party.

    Also, as someone else mentioned then the loss of caster levels are staggered out a bit. With normal entry you only lose 2 caster levels from level 1 to 12. That isnt to bad.

    Though in the end i do agree on that Jade Phoenix Mage or Abjurant champion is likely to offer more for a gish build.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Well since you usually have to start with more levels in your caster class, you're going to have to do a bit more casting. Really, due to the initiative bonus and relatively low AC compared to Abjurant Champion builds at that point, you're going to want throw in a tiny bit of rocket tag into your list.

    it reminds me of the 5e Bladesinger. It loses the wizards strong casting bonus from schools, but gets some defensive options and some melee bonus as a back up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Swiftblade is the best gish class. Still gets 9ths, nice synergy with Spelldancer, easy to enter with martial wizard, oh, and an extra standard action per round, gee, I may have a use for that somewhere...
    Okay, losing higher-level casting PrC features is not ideal, but by that reasoning, Incantatrix is bad because it doesn't get Circle Magic or Supernatural Spell. The class abilities are always better at the other side, no?
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Well, the Swiftblade can take Wizard6/Swiftblade9/ShadowcraftMage5. I wouldn't want to but there are class levels there.
    I thought you were taking three levels of Incantatrix for Metamagic Effect? Or is this some kind of quantum Swiftblade?

    At 15th level, having the extra action is more than having just spellsurge, since your swift action is still free to cast actually quickened spells or spellsurged spells when you get it.
    Yes, it's better. But it's notably not three caster levels better.

    Not the point I was making. You said that difference between 2k damage and 1k damage wasn't a big deal. So I pointed out that I agreed that overkill is overkill.
    You missed my point. It's not a big deal, and you're paying through the nose for something that isn't a big deal.

    So planar binding is a game winner. If you can replicate every spell in the game through that in the same way you could with Simulacrum, then shapechange is pointless if you duplicate can be that of a Sarrukh and manipulate your form to give you abilities. Cheesy? Sure, but if we're not doing it we're leaving power on the table.
    You're missing the difference between practical and theoretical. A Swiftblade is worse at doing things with their class features than a non-Swiftblade. Maybe they can still break the game, but so can Commoners -- and no, I don't care that this "isn't an item discussion". That's a stupid distinction, and you are being stupid when you make it. All characters have items, trying to talk about characters as if that wasn't true misses the point and is how you get dumb arguments like JaronK's tiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro Quester View Post
    Itís worth pointing out the value of using a time-stop for situation-specific spells and for BFC, not just for buffing.
    I agree that there's value there, but you're almost certainly better at doing it if you actually have all your casting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    While your point is fairly valid, you're missing the point where Swiftblade is definitely *NOT* a primary casting PrC. So when we're talking power levels, why would we compare it to full casting PrC's? It's a gish class, and it does that very well. Isn't that the answer to this thread?
    Should we only compare the Fighter to other martial classes? Should we only compare the Adept to other NPC classes? Classes are classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Okay, losing higher-level casting PrC features is not ideal, but by that reasoning, Incantatrix is bad because it doesn't get Circle Magic or Supernatural Spell. The class abilities are always better at the other side, no?
    It's not really fair to compare multiple PrCs to one, unless you're doing the math on total level costs.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    I thought you were taking three levels of Incantatrix for Metamagic Effect? Or is this some kind of quantum Swiftblade?
    It is a quantum swiftblade. The final 5 levels was a hypothetical situation, same as your proposed build. Personally I'm partial to throwing in some Abjurant Champion and Spelldacer (which normally sucks, but it's only 1 more feat after ABJ champ and swiftblade), but really that's up to how much persistomancy your DM is willing to endure.



    Yes, it's better. But it's notably not three caster levels better.
    It's worth 5 by my counter. 8 CL is the adjustment for quicken, -3 because you lost levels.
    You're missing the difference between practical and theoretical. A Swiftblade is worse at doing things with their class features than a non-Swiftblade. Maybe they can still break the game, but so can Commoners -- and no, I don't care that this "isn't an item discussion". That's a stupid distinction, and you are being stupid when you make it. All characters have items, trying to talk about characters as if that wasn't true misses the point and is how you get dumb arguments like JaronK's tiers.
    It being a class based discussion, rather than an item one, is important for this very reason. If every class has items and they all can press the "I win" button, then caster levels are literally worth nothing. :/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    It's worth 5 by my counter. 8 CL is the adjustment for quicken, -3 because you lost levels.
    Yes, because people pay full freight for metamagic.

    It being a class based discussion, rather than an item one, is important for this very reason. If every class has items and they all can press the "I win" button, then caster levels are literally worth nothing. :/
    Or, breaking the game is a bad metric.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    Yes, because people pay full freight for metamagic.
    Of course not. That's why we use incantatrix and spelldacer. Best seriously, I am reminded of the PrC tiers. Incantatrix is worth a lot for basically for the same reasons.
    Or, breaking the game is a bad metric.
    Excuse me, but didn't you say that shapechange was better than time stop because it would win you the *game* rather than a fight? Because when someone uses that kind of language, I expect some game breakage. Then, how much of our magic are we allowed to win the game? Is it really an issue that at 17, instead of using Shapechange to gain new abilities, I used a Sarrukh Simulacra instead? The net effect is the same.

    If our objective is just to win fights and collect loots, then Swiftblade is entirely fine.
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Of course not. That's why we use incantatrix and spelldacer. Best seriously, I am reminded of the PrC tiers. Incantatrix is worth a lot for basically for the same reasons.
    But I thought you were a Shadowcraft Mage?

    Excuse me, but didn't you say that shapechange was better than time stop because it would win you the *game* rather than a fight? Because when someone uses that kind of language, I expect some game breakage. Then, how much of our magic are we allowed to win the game? Is it really an issue that at 17, instead of using Shapechange to gain new abilities, I used a Sarrukh Simulacra instead? The net effect is the same.
    First, Sarrukh don't work like that.

    Second, you can still use an abusable ability fairly.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post

    First, Sarrukh don't work like that.

    Second, you can still use an abusable ability fairly.
    Well, yes they do. They can add or remove Ex abilities from a scaled one, which is a lot of different races. It says so right I the ability description.

    I agree that you can use an abusable ability fairly, but what's fair? If I am "crippled" losing CL, is it fair I grant myself an Ex spellcasting ability from another monster?
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2017-07-31 at 08:42 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Well, yes they do. They can add or remove Ex abilities from a scaled one, which is a lot of different races. It says so right I the ability description.
    It says an ability, and then it gives examples. Those examples are not, in fact, "whatever ability you want".

    I agree that you can use an abusable ability fairly, but what's fair? If I am "crippled" losing CL, is it fair I grant myself an Ex spellcasting ability from another monster?
    Sure, and I'll do the same thing to get whatever Swiftblade abilities I don't have. Oh, and I still get full casting. Huh, funny how that works out.

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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    This just in, [option being discussed] isn't as powerful as [the most powerful options in the game]! [Build] loses out to Tier-1 persistomancy! News at 11!
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2017-07-31 at 09:31 AM.

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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    This just in, [option being discussed] isn't as powerful as [the most powerful options in the game]! [Build] loses out to Tier-1 persistomancy! News at 11!
    May I sig this?
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    It says an ability, and then it gives examples. Those examples are not, in fact, "whatever ability you want".



    Sure, and I'll do the same thing to get whatever Swiftblade abilities I don't have. Oh, and I still get full casting. Huh, funny how that works out.
    It gives example of common physicalchanges, but not a comprehensive list of abilities. Oh it can do Su too. :3

    Great I'll grab some MM reduction and Metamagic effect as an ability too. In the end it doesn't matter. Ergo nothing of value was lost when I lost CL.

    I'll play a green snake naga. I don't remember if they're listed as a scaled one, but it probably it. Sneks ftw
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    This just in, [option being discussed] isn't as powerful as [the most powerful options in the game]! [Build] loses out to Tier-1 persistomancy! News at 11!
    Snowbluff is trying to defend Swiftblade as a reasonable choice for a caster, which it isn't. It's a fine gish. But it's bad if you want to do casting, because it gives up casting for stuff you can get easier elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    It gives example of common physicalchanges, but not a comprehensive list of abilities. Oh it can do Su too. :3
    It gives a list of examples. It does things in line with those examples. Like every other list ever.

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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    This just in, [option being discussed] isn't as powerful as [the most powerful options in the game]! [Build] loses out to Tier-1 persistomancy! News at 11!
    Pure gold, definitely sign metarial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    l

    It gives a list of examples. It does things in line with those examples. Like every other list ever.
    It gives 1 category of examples (physical alterations) while giving no examples of Ex, Su, Sp. it's in line with what physical alterations, but there's no defined limit on what Su, Ex, Sp abilities it can grant, presumably limited by what abilities in those categories exist.

    If I gave you a list of examples of doughnuts that read "cinnamon doughnut, chocolate frosted doughnut, and glazed doughnut," you wouldn't tell me that a vanilla frost doughnut isn't a doughnut.
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2017-07-31 at 10:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    It gives 1 category of examples (physical alterations) while giving no examples of Ex, Su, Sp. it's in line with what physical alterations, but there's no defined limit on what Su, Ex, Sp abilities it can grant, presumably limited by what abilities in those categories exist.
    If it's not limited by the examples, why is it limited by anything? Why do I have to take abilities that exist? "You Give Me Your Car (Ex)" is an Ex ability. It causes you to give me your car. If manipulate form actually allows me to get any ability, why can't I get that one?

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    If it's not limited by the examples, why is it limited by anything? Why do I have to take abilities that exist? "You Give Me Your Car (Ex)" is an Ex ability. It causes you to give me your car. If manipulate form actually allows me to get any ability, why can't I get that one?
    Well if you have it on your sheet, the ability refers to nothing. It's not defined anywhere in the game.

    It'd be kind of like taking a spell with Extra spell that doesn't exist on any list. What does it do?
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2017-07-31 at 10:18 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    May I sig this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hal0Badger View Post
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    Go ahead. Share and enjoy.

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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Well if you have it on your sheet, the ability refers to nothing. It's not defined anywhere in the game.
    You're confusing abilities and names. The ability is the whole thing, the name and whatever effect it has. Manipulate Form doesn't separate the two.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: So how good *is* Swiftblade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post
    You're confusing abilities and names. The ability is the whole thing, the name and whatever effect it has. Manipulate Form doesn't separate the two.
    Dunno man, you're handing me a cronut. Any ability without a name and no effect in game terms isn't an ability. If the ability doesn't exist in the game, I don't think it counts. However, we've already talked about doing something that's fair.

    I'm not giving you my car. >:(
    Last edited by Snowbluff; 2017-07-31 at 07:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

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