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  1. - Top - End - #1351
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Yeah, I don't know where "Multiple low-CR opponents are ineffective" comes from unless you always have them stand in a nice 20-ft-radius sphere rather than, say, putting two archers out of reach and some swordsmen in the front and so forth.
    I remembered once reflexively complaining "come on, these guys are all more than 20ft apart?"

    Only for the DM to retort "it's almost like they know how this works, eh?"
    Last edited by TotallyNotEvil; 2018-01-21 at 07:02 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #1352
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Oh yeah, we're nearing the thread cap. Since I came up with this thread's name, who wants to enter their idea?
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  3. - Top - End - #1353
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Thread IV: Monsters' Paradise.

  4. - Top - End - #1354
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    ow right name for next threat how about bestiarty days
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Shadow View Post
    Threads are like cats. They go where they want, and never listen to what you want them to do.


  5. - Top - End - #1355
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    could be

    The LA-assignment threat IV: Now with extra bickering
    (or a synonym of bickering, if it works better)

    or

    The LA-assignment threat IV: Now with spatbooks

    or

    The LA-assignment threat IV: twice the fun, twice the calories
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    Yes, but immunity to wizard and resistance to fighter kinda makes up for it.
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  6. - Top - End - #1356
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    We could make some jokes about LA +4 monsters, like trumpet archons, beholders, or pixies with Irresistible Dance.

    IV: Weirdly Similar to Planetar
    IV: BEHOLD!
    IV: Do a Little Dance

    Or we could just make it number IV without a name. The concept and discussions are adequately silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    This thread, Questions that can't be answered... Answered by RAW by No brains, is Epic.
    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    That is so stupid it's hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    ...I've clearly been playing D&D for too long, because that made a demented kind of sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by that_one_kobold View Post
    And this is why I love D&D

  7. - Top - End - #1357
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    LA Assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  8. - Top - End - #1358
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    LA Assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
    I love it.

  9. - Top - End - #1359
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    LA Assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
    Beautiful.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  10. - Top - End - #1360
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Clearly I don't know enough cheesy film titles. :p

  11. - Top - End - #1361
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by 3WhiteFox3 View Post
    They can also face threats of 1 CR 7, 2 CR 10s, 1 CR 13, etc... But I chose 1 CR 10 for simplicity, that's it. I could put 12 CR 4s against a low-op fighter with things like greater cleave and other bad options for dealing with multiple weak creatures and they will lose, is that because the fighter is OP? No, it's because using multiple lower CR threats doesn't actually work all that well.
    That depends on how you set up the encounter. And looking at the CR 10s most of them are severely hampered by dr 15

    It doesn't matter, they get choices, they can optimize higher or lower. Even front-loaded options can be cherry picked for the best ones. They can spend more feats on uber-charging, they can pick up leap attack or shock trooper or whatever. You also only cover two of the many examples I gave so those still stand. Not all of those choices have to be good, but they at least get options. I'm not super-familiar with Barb optimization but I'm sure there are ways to cover the main issues you have with the class that you present in your post; and if there aren't then that casts doubts on whether they should actually be the baseline or not. (See below)
    The extra choices don;t matter unless they are more powerful or useful, yes both the Rakasha and the human can grab the best barbarian options 2 levels in, sure humans and rakasha can take leap attack and shock trooper, but what is the human using its extra feat on after that? I missed the DM optional prestige classes, and the non existant racial substitution level for humans. One is DM optional, the other doesn't exist. Does that cover it?

    So you're saying that the Barbarian fails to do their job? If so then you've just argued that they aren't tier 4 at all, because unable to do their own job (deal with threats without dying) effectively is tier 5, not 4. And dealing with more than one threat without dying is a key part of the thing they are supposed to be good at. Tier 5 classes are not considered valid comparision points, so that invalidates your original comparision as well.
    Or that there job isn't to be a glass cannon that some how always wins initiative and some how chops up 3 opponents standing 20 feet from each other in 1 round.

    As I say above, the other conclusion is that Barbarians aren't actually as good at their job as people seem to think they are. Honestly, I'm not sure why Barbarians are considered Tier 4. They are ok at their job early on, but in the mid-game they don't really do anything worthwhile because Rage doesn't scale well. Even if I accept your premise that Barbarians aren't actually good at what they do, that only proves that Barbarians are bad.
    Did I say they were bad at their job? No, I said you were mistaken if you believed they can ignore there defense and completely focus on killing things. Especially when those things are more than 1 or they go first.


    And if they are bad, then they are an unfair comparision point for LA ranking. If they are bad, why are we using them as the base line? Even a Fighter could better handle multiple threats, and they'd still have uber-charging and other damage optimization tricks, and Fighters are almost universally considered high-tier 5 at best. I guess what I'm getting at is that either Barbarians can be optimized to deal with average combat scenarios and are tier 4, and probably compare pretty favorably towards the Rakshasa. Or, they are actually too low-powered to be a good baseline. You seem to be arguing for both things at the same time. You show that Barbarians suck at dealing with threats, but that doesn't actually mean anything if they are just straight-up awful as combatants.
    You tried arguing that they are glass cannons with no defense, that is wrong and that doesn't make them bad.
    Them being higher tier than the fighter probably has something to due with what the 3+ extra hp a level, higher will save, higher fortitude save, damage reduction, and listen as a class skill. You know, the features that help them survive

  12. - Top - End - #1362
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    Amidus Drexel's Avatar

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    Them being higher tier than the fighter probably has something to due with what the 3+ extra hp a level, higher will save, higher fortitude save, damage reduction, and listen as a class skill. You know, the features that help them survive
    Barbarians are higher-tier primarily because they have a better skill list and more skill points than fighters do, actually - Fighters are only really capable of fighting (by class features), while Barbarians can fight and also maybe track or scout on the side.
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  13. - Top - End - #1363
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Amidus Drexel View Post
    Barbarians are higher-tier primarily because they have a better skill list and more skill points than fighters do, actually - Fighters are only really capable of fighting (by class features), while Barbarians can fight and also maybe track or scout on the side.
    Eh, it depends on who you ask a lot of people have different opinions

  14. - Top - End - #1364
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    So far, both +0 and +1 have received exactly seven votes. Would anyone else care to share their opinion?
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I think the racial stat boosts and inherent dr they recieve is enough to push them into a weak +1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zancloufer View Post
    Definitely a +0.
    This thread in a nutshell. I wonder if it could be worked into the new thread name...


    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyNotEvil View Post
    I remembered once reflexively complaining "come on, these guys are all more than 20ft apart?"
    Only for the DM to retort "it's almost like they know how this works, eh?"
    Which makes sense if they know the enemy is going to use AoE spells and is about to attack them. Otherwise, spreading out like that makes anything they try to do much harder.
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    Negative LA Assignment Thread
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  15. - Top - End - #1365
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    OrcBarbarianGirl

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    The spirit of the thread is to make monster races more accessible, so perhaps in a deadlock the lower choice should be taken. In any event, something with 9 HD might be good for a purpose, but it may never be perfect for exactly the build a player wants to make. Also there's not a lot of RP incentive to play some weird offshoot of an already underused monster.

    Unfortunately, I know jack all about initiators, so I can't really give an opinion either way about the kitty's LA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    This thread, Questions that can't be answered... Answered by RAW by No brains, is Epic.
    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    That is so stupid it's hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    ...I've clearly been playing D&D for too long, because that made a demented kind of sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by that_one_kobold View Post
    And this is why I love D&D

  16. - Top - End - #1366
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    The spirit of the thread is to make monster races more accessible, so perhaps in a deadlock the lower choice should be taken. In any event, something with 9 HD might be good for a purpose, but it may never be perfect for exactly the build a player wants to make. Also there's not a lot of RP incentive to play some weird offshoot of an already underused monster.
    That makes sense to me. There is an opportunity cost involved with taking precisely 9 levels of this, while one is free to dip one's various barbarians and warblades and other such things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  17. - Top - End - #1367
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    LA Assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
    This one's gonna be hard to beat. Well done.

  18. - Top - End - #1368
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    When comparing the damage between a standard rogue 20 and a rakasha rogue 11 the standard rogue does about 8 more damage per hit, but the rakasha has 2 extra attacks thanks to its bite and extra BAB. It they both take assassins stance, shadow blade, craven, the TWF line then the rakasha does about 60 more damage per round ontop of its superior defenses.

  19. - Top - End - #1369
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    So was there an eventual consensus, then?
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    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
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  20. - Top - End - #1370
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    So was there an eventual consensus, then?
    +2 LA, to spite everybody. /s
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  21. - Top - End - #1371
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    So was there an eventual consensus, then?
    Going to go with +0 LA. No consensus, no majority vote, so no change to the LA.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  22. - Top - End - #1372
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    So what's the next monster?
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  23. - Top - End - #1373
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    So what's the next monster?
    I think it's a Construct with innate Initiation abilities. More proper than the Rakshasa variant. Or it's a Valkyrie, which I find confusing as to why it took so long for us to get Nordic angels. We had the nordic pantheon since 2e, and they showed up super-early in 3.0, so... No clue why it took so long to get an Outsider based directly on Nordic myth.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    I think it's a Construct with innate Initiation abilities. More proper than the Rakshasa variant. Or it's a Valkyrie, which I find confusing as to why it took so long for us to get Nordic angels. We had the nordic pantheon since 2e, and they showed up super-early in 3.0, so... No clue why it took so long to get an Outsider based directly on Nordic myth.
    There are a few in 3e's Deities & Demigods, including Einherjar, Norse-style giants, and Valkyries. But the ToB Valkyrie is probably more interesting than the D&D one.

  25. - Top - End - #1375
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    I think it's a Construct with innate Initiation abilities. More proper than the Rakshasa variant. Or it's a Valkyrie, which I find confusing as to why it took so long for us to get Nordic angels. We had the nordic pantheon since 2e, and they showed up super-early in 3.0, so... No clue why it took so long to get an Outsider based directly on Nordic myth.
    Reth Dekala, or as I like to call them: 'cursed evil flaming sword guys'. Valkyries (is that the correct plural?) are after that.

    However, RL has been very busy for me, so there's been a bit of a break. I'll soon post the next update: my apologies for the wait.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  26. - Top - End - #1376
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Malimar View Post
    There are a few in 3e's Deities & Demigods, including Einherjar, Norse-style giants, and Valkyries. But the ToB Valkyrie is probably more interesting than the D&D one.
    The ToB Valkyrie is certainly a lot more playable than the one in Dieties and Demigods - that one is a Quasidiety (Divine Rank 0) 20HD medium outsider with most of the abilities of a Paladin 20 (but no actual paladin levels). Unless it got errata'd and/or otherwise changed in the 3.5 update.
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  27. - Top - End - #1377
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    I think it's a Construct with innate Initiation abilities. More proper than the Rakshasa variant. Or it's a Valkyrie, which I find confusing as to why it took so long for us to get Nordic angels. We had the nordic pantheon since 2e, and they showed up super-early in 3.0, so... No clue why it took so long to get an Outsider based directly on Nordic myth.
    Actually, the Reth Dekala is an Outsider, strangely enough.
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  28. - Top - End - #1378
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Reth Dekala


    I have rethurned!

    The Reth Dekala are one of ToB's more unique monsters (not like there's a lot of competition, but still). As CR 4 outsiders with 5 RHD, they're the weakest of the book's three creatures, but still plenty stronger than many of the things that've been reviewed so far.

    Reth Dekala have the [Evil] and [Lawful] subtypes, enjoy +2 natural armor, and are medium-sized. Their ability scores are considerably above average.

    Furthermore, the creatures have resist 15 to both acid and fire; both fairly common damage types, and benefit from a continuous Air Walk effect. It's not true flight, but it's the next best thing, and as the book notes effectively translates to a +1 to-hit in every battle. 50% fortification is icing.

    Finally, there's Vilefire Aura (decent debuff, though annoying for your allies), and Vilefire Blast (beats the average warblade's backup longbow, but that's about it), and a number of martial maneuvers. The ones known can't be changed, but they're decent picks.

    Interestingly, a reth dekala who takes levels in any of the three martial adept classes can effectively add their RHD to their class level when determining available maneuvers and initiator level. For crusaders and swordsages, this means a slight decrease in maneuvers known, but for warblades it's superior to a non-LAd race in almost every way (unless you really wanted Improved Uncanny Dodge, I guess).

    With this in mind, I think reth dekala deserve at least +1 LA, and possibly +2. For now I'll rate them at +1, considering their lack of maneuver choices, as well as the reduced appeal of outsider HD when the balance points get the closest thing to it.

    This assumes a tier 3 balance point.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Inclined for +1, since the ability mods are good and being able to stack initiator levels is pretty good off outsider HD. Based on past adjustments, I do not think it warrants +2. It just does not possess enough, even if what it has is very solid; a lot of what it provides is liable to be overlapped by late game buffs and equipment, like the DR piercing and fortification.
    Last edited by ViperMagnum357; 2018-02-05 at 06:21 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #1380
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Str +8, Dex +4, Con +6, Wis +4, Cha +4 => net +26, that's not Unicorn level but in terms of bonus it's quite significant for a T3 character.

    Unlimited mundane flight.

    Defenses aren't bad: resist 15 fire and acid, plus 50% fortification, and the extra +2 Natural Armor doesn't hurt. The flight and Outsider type might also count as a defense, I guess.

    The racial maneuvers are decent in terms of power, but also they're over-leveled. This 5 HD critter has level 4 & level 5 maneuvers.

    I'd say LA +1 or even LA +2 would be appropriate.

    Let's go with LA +1 for now.

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