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  1. - Top - End - #1411
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    I've only ever read people here saying it is a pretend variant that has not been allowed at a table. I've seen homebrew modifications of it on the boards, though.
    That's a nonsensical objection. Everything in the game is equally pretend, and a huge number of generally-popular things aren't allowed at "a table".

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I am wondering about if it would actually break the game though. The Arcane swordsage i mean?
    Its a trade of endurance against versatility and the raw power of metamagic tricks.
    It wasn't particularly broken relative to other casters, but it was an increase in versatility & power.

  2. - Top - End - #1412
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    Question Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    So how is Arcane Swordsage supposed to work exactly? AFB right now, but from memory it swaps manoeuvres for equal level Sor/Wiz spells, and the spells use the same refresh mechanic as manoeuvres.

    Unless I'm missing anything (which I probably am), wouldn't this make them significantly more powerful than Sorcerers?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    So how is Arcane Swordsage supposed to work exactly? AFB right now, but from memory it swaps manoeuvres for equal level Sor/Wiz spells, and the spells use the same refresh mechanic as manoeuvres.

    Unless I'm missing anything (which I probably am), wouldn't this make them significantly more powerful than Sorcerers?
    Not really, because a Swordsage knows so few spells, even relative to a Sorcerer, even if you trade every maneuver for a spell.

    You can't get much use from the usual spells-known hacks either, because even if you break the spells-known limit you've done nothing to expand your spells-readied limit. You can't use Runestaves because you don't have spell-slots.

    The character I saw ended up with a handful of perennials like Alter Self, which was quite playable and interesting, but it wasn't game-breaking.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    That's a nonsensical objection. Everything in the game is equally pretend, and a huge number of generally-popular things aren't allowed at "a table".
    I wasn't objecting to anything. I was just saying what I have seen, as you made it sound like a common thing. It is not. Anyway, I don't see the point in furthering this into some kind of argument so I will not respond to the arcane swordsage topic.

    However, I would be interested in knowing what Inevitability planned for the next book.
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    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
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    DMG 3.5e page 41:
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  5. - Top - End - #1415
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Not really, because a Swordsage knows so few spells, even relative to a Sorcerer, even if you trade every maneuver for a spell.

    You can't get much use from the usual spells-known hacks either, because even if you break the spells-known limit you've done nothing to expand your spells-readied limit. You can't use Runestaves because you don't have spell-slots.

    The character I saw ended up with a handful of perennials like Alter Self, which was quite playable and interesting, but it wasn't game-breaking.
    If you break the spells known limit, depending on which spells you have as spells known, an Arcane Swordsage can break things out of combat. Without doing so, however, an Arcane Swordsage probably won't have enough spells known to try to both break things out of combat while still being effective in combat.


    Though an Arcane Swordsage can more or less effectively Nova in every combat, unlike a regular Sorcerer. Basically, an Arcane Swordsage has to either nova or have a sustained effect combat booster that they can rely on for pretty much everything.


    --


    As for the ToB-Valk stat-pumping ... sure, you can get rather good Strength and Dex; even getting both to damage with the right feats, your bonus damage is still going to be on the light side of what's nominally expected for TWF; and most maneuvers are incompatible with TWF.
    However, there are also practical limitations on how much pumping of Dex you can realistically benefit from. At least, if you also want to be able to benefit from armor special abilities without paying through the nose to get those armor abilities on Bracers of Armor (and giving up the bracer slot).


    --


    And since we're both done with ToB, and about to need a new thread ...

    Perhaps starting the MM2 with the next thread?
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  6. - Top - End - #1416
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I like either starting on a new large book like MM2, or working through multiple smaller books like Miniatures handbook, Magic of Incarnum, etc.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    I will be doing ToB next, followed by ToM. Afterwards, I think I'll do MM3 first, and then the XPH.

    ...or something like that, we'll see.
    This was the last statement made about book order. Don't know if it's still relevant.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post

    As for the ToB-Valk stat-pumping ... sure, you can get rather good Strength and Dex; even getting both to damage with the right feats, your bonus damage is still going to be on the light side of what's nominally expected for TWF; and most maneuvers are incompatible with TWF.
    However, there are also practical limitations on how much pumping of Dex you can realistically benefit from. At least, if you also want to be able to benefit from armor special abilities without paying through the nose to get those armor abilities on Bracers of Armor (and giving up the bracer slot).
    The bonus TWF feats are likely trap options that won't be used most of the time, and you can splice magic item abilities together for a bump in price, so your not really giving up your slot.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    This was the last statement made about book order. Don't know if it's still relevant.
    I kind of don't feel like doing the ToM right now, mostly because I don't want to explore another batch of subsystems right after initiating.

    Currently, I'm thinking I should do Heroes of Horror next.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    I wasn't objecting to anything. I was just saying what I have seen, as you made it sound like a common thing.
    Nobody said that, and that's obviously including me. Are you trying to re-hash an argument you had with someone else, off in a different thread?

    Please don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    I kind of don't feel like doing the ToM right now, mostly because I don't want to explore another batch of subsystems right after initiating.

    Currently, I'm thinking I should do Heroes of Horror next.
    Sounds good to me.

    Just FYI, the monsters in the Binder section of ToM don't interact with the Binder mechanical subsystem -- they're all traditional monsters which represent Binder thematics. (Can't speak with authority on the other two sections, as I've been ignoring them for years now.)

    XPH might be good after HoH, if you're comfortable with Psionics.

  11. - Top - End - #1421
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Just FYI, the monsters in the Binder section of ToM don't interact with the Binder mechanical subsystem -- they're all traditional monsters which represent Binder thematics. (Can't speak with authority on the other two sections, as I've been ignoring them for years now.)
    Word Archons, Logokron Devils and Garblers can all use truespeak. No clue on shadowcasting though.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Currently, I'm thinking I should do Heroes of Horror next.
    Yay!

    Have we decided on a subtitle for the next thread yet? I'm sure Flickerdart came up with something good, but I'm not sure if I'm remembering some other time they had a good thread name.

    Maybe we could work off of some idea like: IV: Not All There in the Monster Manual
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    This thread, Questions that can't be answered... Answered by RAW by No brains, is Epic.
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    That is so stupid it's hilarious.
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    ...I've clearly been playing D&D for too long, because that made a demented kind of sense.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Word Archons, Logokron Devils and Garblers can all use truespeak. No clue on shadowcasting though.
    Thanks. Oh well, guess ToM will have to wait a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Maybe we could work off of some idea like: IV: Not All There in the Monster Manual
    LA-assignment thread IV: A New Hope (for balance)

    LA-assignment thread IV: Reincarnation (vs. Alien 4: Resurrection)

    LA-assignment thread IV: On The Level

    LA-assignment thread IV: Magical Beasts and How to Play Them

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Word Archons, Logokron Devils and Garblers can all use truespeak. No clue on shadowcasting though.
    They're all monsters from the Shadow Plane. A couple have shadow-themed spell-like abilities. That's all.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    The LA-assignment thread IV: The Abyss Gazes Back
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  16. - Top - End - #1426
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    LA Assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard
    I'm partial to this one myself.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    LA-assignment thread IV: Magical Beasts and How to Play Them
    I like this one.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by flare'90 View Post
    They're all monsters from the Shadow Plane. A couple have shadow-themed spell-like abilities. That's all.
    I love how in order to work out what ToM's deal is, we needed three different people to be familiar with the three thirds of it.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I love how in order to work out what ToM's deal is, we needed three different people to be familiar with the three thirds of it.
    Well, it's kinda 3 books in one.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    The bonus TWF feats are likely trap options that won't be used most of the time, and you can splice magic item abilities together for a bump in price, so your not really giving up your slot.
    If you're not using TWF, the bonus TWF feats have negligible value (without doing the DCFS).

    It's a pretty big price increase, though. And you'll need to custom order it, or have a crafter in the party - and have the time to wait for it to be made.

    Anyways, the point was, boosting Dex has limitations/trade-offs that you're actually going to notice on a ToB-Valk.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I love how in order to work out what ToM's deal is, we needed three different people to be familiar with the three thirds of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by flare'90 View Post
    Well, it's kinda 3 books in one.
    ToM is an odd one, as splats go. I feel like it should've been split into three different books, one for each subsystem, and then each given more time and resources.
    That is, turn ToM into a series, sort of like the Completes, ToM: Pact Magic, ToM: Shadow Magic, ToM: True Names; for that matter, Magic of Incarnum probably would've been an appropriate entry in the series.

    It's not like any of the concepts (Pact Magic, Shadow Magic, True Naming) were bad ones, or wouldn't have had sufficient interest by themselves. I mean, I'd probably say MoI and Incarnum as a stand-alone would've been riskier than a Pact Magic, Shadow Magic, or True Naming stand-alone book. In the abstract, anyways.
    Admittedly, if the Truespeak/Truenaming mechanics hadn't been improved for its stand-alone, it probably would've run into issues.
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  21. - Top - End - #1431
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    I'm partial to this one myself.
    That's been my favorite suggestion so far, too.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Bane Wraith


    Heroes of Horror's first monsters are Bane Wraiths: incorporeal CR 8 undead with 8 RHD. Given the difficulty of rating previous incorporeals, this probably isn't going to be easy.

    Bane Wraiths have decent boosts to what ability scores they have, a pretty good flight speed, +4 turn resistance, darkvision, and a couple of interesting special qualities in Empathic Sense and False Substance. The first is heavily roleplaying-dependent, but the second has a practical use in making 'angry mob syndrome' somewhat less of a problem. Detect Thoughts and Disguise Self at-will are useful, but not exceptional at these levels.

    The wraithlike beings' primary weapon is a touch attack that can deal either 1d4 strength or 1d4 wisdom damage. Compared to the touches of greater shadows (CR 9) that's inferior, but the added versatility means bane wraiths can actively target lower scores, which presumably gives them an advantage.

    Both attacks also have an additional boost: the wisdom-draining attack has a chance to go completely unnoticed, whereas the strength drain turns into constitution drain after a target's strength has dropped to zero.

    As befits any incorporeal undead, those killed by a bane wraith rise as regular wraiths in a matter of rounds. Endless growing undead hordes unbalanced, yadda yadda yadda, worthy of an asterisk.

    Ignoring the unratable spawn creation for a moment, I think bane wraiths deserve a LA of +0. Incorporeality is a powerful tool, as is variable ability drain, and the side abilities are surprisingly useful in any campaign that's not just hack-n-slash, but 8 RHD really limits the monster's potential.

    LA set as +0* for now, but do discuss.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2018-02-20 at 11:39 AM.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  23. - Top - End - #1433
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Also, I went back and added an asterisk to the oozes that get Split, for obvious reasons.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    The Spot DC on False Substance is pretty low, and I'm not sure that there's a viable way to improve it.



    I think I'll agree with the +1* rating, although I think a +0* would probably also be fair.
    They get the * automatically for incorporeality and spawn creation. The * is indisputable.
    However, if we discount incorporeality and spawn creation ... they're good, but I'm not sure they're really worth 9+ class levels. Especially since their advancement path seems ... unclear. Straight into Assassin maybe?
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    In an investigation game, this ability could be pretty boss:

    Empathic Sense (Ex): When a bane wraith draws within 30 feet of any sentient being, it immediately and instinctively knows the name and appearance of every one of that individualís friends and loved ones. Furthermore, it gains a general sense of where the individual believes her loved ones to be, although this information might not be accurate. This ability allows no save, but spells or abilities that make the subject immune to mind-reading or telepathy block this power.

    The disguise self and detect thoughts at-will are also decidedly useful, but not that big a deal at level 9+.

    In a dungeon crawl, the Incorporeality might be useful, and the (undocumented) Charisma-to-AC is nice.


    For advancement, the Mindspy (Complete Warrior) seems useful for 5 levels of full BAB and better investigation via detect thoughts perks.

    Paying 8 levels is really harsh, though, since Undead HD aren't very good.

    I'm going with LA +0*

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I think I'd go with +0*. Bane wraiths are okay but unimpressive rogue-types with an affinity for stealth attacks and social encounters. Ignoring create spawn, which gives the asterisk, they don't have that much going for them.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Maybe Loki was somehow involved? He does enjoy horsing around.
    Sometimes a bit too literally. looks at Sleipnir


    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Do you read these forums much? If so, I'd expect you could easily find evidence that I'm not the only one who's seen it in actual play.
    I've read these forums much (sometimes too much) and this is the first I've heard of that option existing, let alone being used.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Word Archons, Logokron Devils and Garblers can all use truespeak. No clue on shadowcasting though.
    Poor shadowcasting. It's not interesting and useful like binding, and it's not fascinatingly broken like truenaming.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Have to agree with the +0* votes. They seem decent, but losing 8 levels to HD and having only really weird niche advancement paths is very limiting.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I will go with LA +0* for Bane Wraith as well-too many odd bits attached to far too many bad RHD. Not sure what to do with it, really.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    +0* it is, then.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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