The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

[Elkad]

I never did the math before, but in Gaseous Form, a Vampire can Hustle for 2 hours, but not Run, on the way back to it's coffin.
It's slightly faster than a normal overland hustle as well - an extra half-mile per hour. Only 1% slower than tactical movement the entire time.

[danielxcutter]

Let's see... huge stat bonuses, Create Spawn is actually pretty nice, and the other benefits, while rather minor, aren't a total waste of paper.

On the other hand, dungeon crawling and going indoors can be denied by a first level commoner who might not even know what you are, and the sunlight weakness can be exploited by a mere Greater Dispel Magic.

Oh well, at least you don't sparkle.

Spoiler: Sorta related I guess?

Show

[TotallyNotEvil]

Well, @Thurbane is right in that no one here would go for +5, so write me down for +4.

[Amidus Drexel]

An initial pass has me agreeing with the +3/+4; not sure which I'd pick of the two. Undead immunities are hit or miss - there's just so many counters to the creature type. Dominate and the various ways you can achieve flight are the real highlights of this template, as well as the energy drain (for those with natural attacks) - create spawn is strong (as usual), but will ultimately be campaign-dependent (as usual). The stat and skill mods are nice, but not really game-changing beyond LA+2 or so.

All of this is assuming you've somehow freed yourself from whoever sired you, of course.

Since LA +5 will never get through, I'm voting LA +4.

Well, @Thurbane is right in that no one here would go for +5, so write me down for +4.

As has been said earlier - voting results tend to be more than just "which option got the most votes - if you think it's +5, then you should vote that.

[No brains]

Are we sure a dispel magic can end a vampire's special gaseous form? Are we certain that it doesn't run aground of some of the caveats of its ability type? Is it Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like, and can all of those be dispelled?

[danielxcutter]

Are we sure a dispel magic can end a vampire's special gaseous form? Are we certain that it doesn't run aground of some of the caveats of its ability type? Is it Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like, and can all of those be dispelled?

I think they mean that the spells that prevent you from being fried with solar power can be dispelled.

[Nifft]

Are we sure a dispel magic can end a vampire's special gaseous form? Are we certain that it doesn't run aground of some of the caveats of its ability type? Is it Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like, and can all of those be dispelled?

It's not hard to look this up, you know.

Go here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm

Copy-paste this:

Gaseous Form (Su)

As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.

There you go.


Since it's clearly labeled (Su) for Supernatural, it cannot be dispelled.

[Jormengand]

I think they mean that the spells that prevent you from being fried with solar power can be dispelled.

Exactly. The fact that vampire forces you to be a caster (or go begging to your buffbot for a protection from sunlight, a spell which, to be clear, does not exist so your DM has to be nice and let you research it - endure elements doesn't work, and impede sun's brilliance explicitly doesn't work), and then the artificially-high level adjustment fries most of your caster levels, and then you need to persist this nonexistent spell on yourself, all so that... you can adventure like a creature with no LA.

But let's assume your DM doesn't let you brew a new spell. You cannot adventure outdoors during the day. You cannot adventure in any location where creatures dwell if they don't give you permission. And you can't travel across running water. You can't approach within 5 feet of a cleric and a creature can hold you at bay with a shard of glass. That's close enough to "You can't play the game" and you want to give it a level adjustment?

[danielxcutter]

Oh yeah, and garlic. People seem to forget that.

[Nifft]

Exactly. The fact that vampire forces you to be a caster (or go begging to your buffbot for a protection from sunlight, a spell which, to be clear, does not exist

Cloak of dark power creates a dusky haze around the subject. The haze does not interfere with vision, but the subject and anything it wears or carries is protected from the effects of full sunlight, even under the open, daytime sky of the surface world. A drow subject suffers no blindness or bright illumination combat penalties while under the effect of cloak of dark power.

Level 1, Drow domain.

There might be more, I stopped when I found one.

(D&D has a lot of spells, and spells can do a lot of stuff, apparently including this.)

[Jormengand]

Oh yeah, and garlic. People seem to forget that.

True, but I assume that people are more likely to have holy symbols or, I dunno, any object with a reflective surface on their person than cloves of garlic. I'm wearing two holy symbols and have an array of reflective objects around me as I type this (and no garlic). I can literally stave off a vampire with my bracelet. That says something about how terrible vampires are.

Level 1, Drow domain.

There might be more, I stopped when I found one.

(D&D has a lot of spells, and spells can do a lot of stuff, apparently including this.)

When they said "15 minute adventuring day" they didn't mean "Because you'll fry if you adventure for longer", you know.

[danielxcutter]

Level 1, Drow domain.

There might be more, I stopped when I found one.

(D&D has a lot of spells, and spells can do a lot of stuff, apparently including this.)

That's a pretty obscure spell, honestly. I didn't even know there was even a Drow domain until now. That could work, I guess, though the dispel thing is still a factor.

[Jormengand]

That's a pretty obscure spell, honestly. I didn't even know there was even a Drow domain until now. That could work, I guess, though the dispel thing is still a factor.

It won't work unless you persist it, in which case you're using powerful cheese in order to adventure like a normal person, and also if you're a vampire cleric you have to recoil from yourself every time you cast a spell with a DF component, and also also what if you're a vampire who isn't a drow or isn't a cleric?

[danielxcutter]

It won't work unless you persist it, in which case you're using powerful cheese in order to adventure like a normal person, and also if you're a vampire cleric you have to recoil from yourself every time you cast a spell with a DF component, and also also what if you're a vampire who isn't a drow or isn't a cleric?

Yeah, this.

Also about the garlic thing: does it specifically have to be cloves of garlic? Would garlic bread or something like that be enough? What about food with garlic in it?

[Nifft]

True, but I assume that people are more likely to have holy symbols or, I dunno, any object with a reflective surface on their person than cloves of garlic. I'm wearing two holy symbols and have an array of reflective objects around me as I type this (and no garlic). I can literally stave off a vampire with my bracelet. That says something about how terrible vampires are.

Unless you, you know, look at one and thus you get Dominated for a few hours.

It tells you to take off the bracelet and put your garlic in the freezer.

This ruins the garlic. Forever. What a monster.

Also you die, and you think it's voluntary.

Wards without will won't work.

[Jormengand]

Unless you, you know, look at one and thus you get Dominated for a few hours.

That's explicitly not how the gaze attack works. Also I have the perfect weapon against a vampire: the mighty eyelid.

[Svata]

Also, BEING AT HOME. Or someone else's home.

[Hish]

Put me down for +4. I wouldn't object much to +3, but it's too much benefit for +2.

[Jormengand]

It tells you to take off the bracelet and put your garlic in the freezer.

Also, this is explicitly not how the spell works:

"Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out."

[Baby Gary]

Also I have the perfect weapon against a vampire: the mighty eyelid.

all that you need with that is some reflective paint on your eyelids. I have created improved the ultimate anti-vampire weapon, the eyelid with reflective paint

order now for $999.99, some restrictions may apply, batteries not included

[Jormengand]

all that you need with that is some reflective paint on your eyelids. I have created improved the ultimate anti-vampire weapon, the eyelid with reflective paint

order now for $999.99, some restrictions may apply, batteries not included

That's a point, actually, when counting the mirrors I have nearby I totally forgot my mirrored sunglasses, though in Vampire's defence I doubt most D&D commoners will have those.

[Lans]

Won't deeper darkness work? For the sunlight

[Inevitability]

Won't deeper darkness work? For the sunlight

It'll prevent you from being exposed to sunlight, yes. It'll also cause you and any nearby ally to suffer a miss chance on their attacks. And given that enemies are more likely to have blindsight/blindsense/tremorsense/mindsight than PCs, I don't think the overall result is in your favor.

[Luccan]

It'll prevent you from being exposed to sunlight, yes. It'll also cause you and any nearby ally to suffer a miss chance on their attacks. And given that enemies are more likely to have blindsight/blindsense/tremorsense/mindsight than PCs, I don't think the overall result is in your favor.

Probably preferable to instant death, though. Actually, I think the main problem would be that you probably only have so much deeper darkness. What if you can't get into more permanent cover in time?

[Remuko]

Given the ratings of others I'm going with a very strong +2 to a middle class +3 at most.

[Caelestion]

The vampire definitely has more goodies than the lich at +2, but is also saddled with suck for a lot of things, many of which can be elided or mitigated in some fashion, but which will in turn of course increase the vampire's versatility with each concession. RAW however, I'd suggest +3 with a healthy dose of GM caveat, especially regarding energy drain, sunlight vulnerability and private places.

[lord_khaine]

Im going with +4 as well. The Vampire just have to many different and potentially usefull tricks. Just unlimited Dominate Person is something you can break a less solid campaign with if your not careful.
Besides that there is a lot of stat Buffs, some really good defensive traits, and some nice supernatural abilities.

And yes there is some flaws as well. Having to adventure mainly during the night is mainly an annoyance for the rest of the party. Having to be a spellcaster or a gish is hardly a penalty at all when the Vampire abilities support that.
The others meanwhile are less meaningful, as they also eats up the action of whoever is presenting the mirror/holy symbol, while still leaving the vampire free to use spells/ranged weapons.

[Svata]

It eats up MAYBE a move action. At most. Heck, it could likely be done as PART of a move action (like drawing a weapon is for anyone with a BAB of 1 or more).

Anyway, +3 from me.

[ExLibrisMortis]

On vampire weaknesses: Seriously, what kind of PC is literally barred from kicking in the door? That's like, the default assumption of dungeon raiding down the drain.

On vampire strengths: Blood Drain is useless (must achieve a pin first, 1d4 con damage per round).
Children of the Night is weaker than a warlock's least invocation.
Dominate is sweet, especially out of combat.
Create Spawn is okay if you can use it (need to bury enemies, then wait a long while for 4 HD minions that have vampire weaknesses, but they're intelligent, so they're good scouts and spies and stuff).
Energy Drain is really nice, sadly only 1/round (even worse if you rule it takes a standard action to activate, but let's not).
Alternate Form is nice, but clashes with the vampire's nice stat adjustments.
DR, fast healing: always nice, not super strong once LA is in play (reduced overall hp makes them necessary), doesn't scale too well.
Gaseous form, well, it has its uses, but it costs you all supernatural abilities, you can't use most of the abilities you have remaining, all defensive advantages (DR 10/magic, immunity to poison/crits) overlap with its base abilities, and if your coffin is upwind, you'll literally be blown away from it.
Spider Climb is meh.
Skill bonuses and ability scores are nice.

It's the weaknesses that bring the vampire down to +2 or +3. If the weaknesses are mitigated, +3 will do. If you have to suffer them all, +2. It depends on how nice the DM is.

[Zancloufer]

Going to vote for +3 IF you have some way of mitigating the sunlight weakness. Or are in a campaign where day time/outside adventuring isn't a big deal (IE Underdark). I think people are seriously underestimating the weakness of having a Sunlight based Die or More Die.

Also remember that our Vampire in question HAS to be a level 5+ character. If you are clamoring for 4-5 LA how does a level 5 PC with the Vampire Template stack up to a level 8-9 PC with full class levels? How good are things like Spider Climb and delayed summon pile of dogs at level 8+?

Onto some more detailed points:

Stat boosts are nice, so overall gain there. Same with NA and alternate movement speeds. +8 to a bunch of skills and the free feats are solid. Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes is the only one worth paying for though. Also it means that you probably have to had NOT taken said feats before now to benefit from this.

Fast Healing and DR are going to help off set lack of HP (See below) much of the time and do help you save on between combat healing. Which would actually be a downside if your not traveling with Dread Necros or other undead.

No Con and d12 HD. Now this is actually a double edged sword. Assuming average HD (IE 1/2) It is a straight downgrade for any d12 classes, d10 classes needed to dump con to benefit from it, d8 is only better if you have less than 16 Con. d6/d4 do usually benefit from it but they tend to be mostly casters and casters take the most penalties from having high LA though.

As mentioned earlier the summoning is kind of lackluster. It's okay if you know you will be in a fight soon, or summoning at the start of a dungeon, but at level 7+ 12 wolves are little more than speed bumps. If it was instant or scaled it would be much better but it doesn't so yeah.

Dominate and Create Spawn are where 50%+ of the template's strength is IMHO. Piles of smart minions can be really handy. Standard action SoL that creates temporary minions is nice, though I suppose you could dominate a town and then make them permanent vampire minions.

Also have to mention the whole "cannot open door that isn't to a public place without permission", the "Standard action + Religious Focus = Magic Circle vs Vampires" or the "Running Water = Magic Wall Against Vampires" or the "A Pool = Die or more Die vs Vampires".


So yeah LA +3 IF the campaign/setting/DM offers so way of mitigating or ignoring at least some of the Vampire's major weaknesses. If the DM is going to be a jerk with outdoor hedge-mazes full of crucifixes rivers and locked doors then it's probably a +2.