The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

[Remuko]

My position on spawn is similar to that on vampires: your abilities are very nice but they're not worth incurring vulnerability to houses and nice weather. The domination effect has the DC of a second-level spell and anyway you're giving up four of your levels (five if you give it that level adjustment!) which may very well be what's giving you access to actual dominate person. Losing five caster levels for those abilities isn't great, and +6/+4/-/+2/+2/+4 isn't tempting enough. Martial classes can't really benefit either, as using most of your stuff precludes use of the weapon you came here to wield and you can't afford to be losing 2 BAB, let alone 3. For a drow domain cleric, I might say it was +0, but otherwise it's a -0 from me. I'm not paying 5 levels to be murdered by a fireball with an ego or held at bay by the concept of property ownership.

Agreed with Jormengand.

[javcs]

Vampires and Vampire Spawn suffer much of the same problem - a fair amount of what you get is fairly nice, but the some of downsides are very game and DM -dependent, and can easily range from bad to crippling.

And that was before Libris Mortis introduced rules for how often you need to feed. And curiously, a Vampire/Vampire Spawn can more easily go without blood for longer than they can go without level draining someone per those Libris Mortis rules.




The swingy-ness of the game and DM dependencies of the downsides are hard to evaluate. But they're all pretty bad, and place major constraints on what you can and cannot do. Basically your limitations either have to be disregarded entirely or pretty much the entire game and game concept has to bend around your limitations.

[Celestia]

I think, myself, the vampire should be +2, maybe +3. Those weaknesses are really powerful. The spawn is definitely a -0. Even a standard ghoul is better than a vampire spawn. At least they can dungeon delve without asking the monsters for permission.

[No brains]

I wonder what legal authority it would take for someone to authorize a vampire to enter a space. If a king sees land as his, can he designate a vampire to evict people from it? If you're a first time DM or you just really love railroading, you can have a noble stand in a doorway, tell PCs to go to a dungeon, and not worry about things going awry. Then again, it may suck if it is impossible to rescind an invitation for a vampire.

As for the holy symbol or mirror, I don't really see that as a weakness. All it does is stop melee attacks, which aren't the best anyway. Even then, a reach weapon could sunder a holy symbol or mirror, especially if its being held out like a target. A vampire can get past garlic if they plug their nose.

Even things like sunlight and running water are DM-dependent, especially if PCs can get the ability to fly or teleport. Then again, an evil DM could say that underground plumbing is a conspiracy to make a lot of running water to hedge out vamps.

More than any other monster, vampires and spawn need the DM caution sign.

[Inevitability]

Vampire spawn LA lowered to +0.

[Boggartbae]

I don't think you should change the LA, but just a note on true vampires:
There's a magic item called Liquid Night (Libris Mortis 74) that protects them from the sun, and if your base race has a swim speed, then you can cross running water, so the only real weakness vampires have is needing permission to enter places. It's still a big weakness, but it makes it harder for DM's to mess with their players, if anyone was actually thinking about playing a vampire.

Also if you're a melee vampire, get your weapon enchanted with the Necrotic Focus ability (+3 bonus, also from Libris Mortis) Its pretty good, and might even make a dual wielding build worth it.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think you should change the LA, but just a note on true vampires:
There's a magic item called Liquid Night (Libris Mortis 74) that protects them from the sun, and if your base race has a swim speed, then you can cross running water, so the only real weakness vampires have is needing permission to enter places. It's still a big weakness, but it makes it harder for DM's to mess with their players, if anyone was actually thinking about playing a vampire.

Also if you're a melee vampire, get your weapon enchanted with the Necrotic Focus ability (+3 bonus, also from Libris Mortis) Its pretty good, and might even make a dual wielding build worth it.

Is Liquid Night easy to get in sufficient quantities? Don't have the book.

[Coretron03]

Is Liquid Night easy to get in sufficient quantities? Don't have the book.

Liquid night costs 150 GP for 1 hour of protection against sunlight (it also causes a spell effect that deals extra damage because of your from sunlight vulnerability to affect you as if you didn't have the vulnerability, though it ends the effect). Medium creatures require 1 dose to fully cover them, doubling for each extra size catergory. DC 25 alchemy check to craft. Pretty expensive for regular use if it isn't crafted.

[danielxcutter]

Liquid night costs 150 GP for 1 hour of protection against sunlight (it also causes a spell effect that deals extra damage because of your from sunlight vulnerability to affect you as if you didn't have the vulnerability, though it ends the effect). Medium creatures require 1 dose to fully cover them, doubling for each extra size catergory. DC 25 alchemy check to craft. Pretty expensive for regular use if it isn't crafted.

Still looks like the best bet for the average vampire PC, honestly. DC 25 for a skill check isn't terribly high, right? I do agree that it's going to cut into your funds quite a bit, though.

[tyckspoon]

Is Liquid Night easy to get in sufficient quantities? Don't have the book.

It's an alchemical item; 150 GP per dose, each dose lasts for 1 hour. It's theoretically as available as anything else that you can afford to pay for, but considering what it does/the kinds of creatures it benefits it'd probably be similar to how poison is treated in most settings - you can get it, but in order to secure it you have to deal with the criminal elements/black market/suppliers who aren't terribly concerned about who they deal with. Good stuff to have on hand (especially because it also provides a defense against getting Searing Light/Sunburst/other anti-undead/light vulnerable nuked) but I don't know if I'd rely on it for general "ok, now I can travel in the daylight with the rest of you" purposes.

[Coretron03]

Could acorn of far travel be used for this? I mean, treated as if your standing under a tree, therefore not in direct sunlight. Hell, maybe it could alo get around the "Have to ask for owners permision" part. Thoughts?

[Caelestion]

The spell is here. On reading it, I'd say no to both questions (I don't even know how you could construe a yes to the privacy issue).

[Inevitability]

Vargouille

Vargouilles are another of those things where I wonder how a DM is supposed to use them. They aren't fast, they aren't smart, they lack any defenses altogether, but at the same time they do have the ability to inflict long-lasting, if not permanent damage or even death upon unsuspecting players that's almost impossible to reverse at level 2.

The flying heads have bonuses to dexterity, constitution, and wisdom, and penalties to charisma and intelligence. They fly at a speed of 30 ft. (good), have the Evil subtype, and get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. Their one outsider HD can be exchanged for a class level.

Special abilities are a poison that causes damage from bites to be unhealable (largely useless against NPCs), an awesome AoE scream that causes paralysis and lasts for multiple rounds, and a very strange 'Kiss' ability that allows you to turn a creature into a vargouille over the course of a day. Given that it only works on paralyzed enemies, which don't have stellar lifespans anyways, I don't think it impacts LA in spite of being a save-or-die.

However, despite the advancement opportunities and shriek, vargouilles are probably still okay as a +0 LA. Having an nontypical body hurts, as does the lack of diversity in its abilities.

[Boggartbae]

Could acorn of far travel be used for this? I mean, treated as if your standing under a tree, therefore not in direct sunlight. Hell, maybe it could alo get around the "Have to ask for owners permision" part. Thoughts?

You are considered standing underneath the tree in addition to wherever you actually are, so if you want to stand under your tree in someone's living room then you still need to ask permission, and you would be simultaneously in shade and in the sun, so you still get dusted.

[Nifft]

Str ±0, Dex +2, Con +2, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha -2 => net -2, not great

Fly 30, great at level 1.

1 RHD => does this get replaced? If so it's pretty good.

Outsider type => significantly good.

Poison => useful for long-term multi-encounter attrition maybe? But usually that's not relevant.

Shriek => party can become immune every morning; solid utility in some encounters.

Kiss => garbage, won't be used ever.


No hands, but the transformation text indicates that we get tentacles, and we can speak Infernal. Therefore we can surely use items.

Verdict: LA +0.

[Thurbane]

Vargouille Warlock?

Vargouille is an odd one...

• Small Outsider.
• 1 RHD (that should be able to be swapped for class levels).
• Fly 30 ft good (flying is nice).
• Bite 1d4 + poison (poison has no real combat effect).
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• Shriek is a very good special attack: paralysis 2d4 rounds = lose. You can give you allies immunity by letting them roll until they save, then they are immune 24 hours. Gets blocked by immunity to fear and/or mind affecting. Also (presumably) by Silence or anything that blocks line of sight to the Vargouille.
• Kiss is a SoD, but by the time you have an enemy paralyzed, the fight is over anyway. Messes up Raise Dead or similar, I guess.
• Dex +2, Con +2, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha -2: net -2. Not great.
• You are a flying head with (debatably) no limbs or manipulative digits. That's bad. You also appear to be missing a whole lot of body slots for items. That's also bad.

Flying and shriek, weighed up against sucky ability mods and your weird body type...I'll be voting LA +0. Barely.

[Nifft]

[*]You are a flying head with (debatably) no limbs or manipulative digits. That's bad. You also appear to be missing a whole lot of body slots for items. That's also bad.

Transformation text indicates that you *do* gain tentacles.

Items are (potentially) usable.


Thinking a bit more about the poison, I guess it means your bite can be enhanced via venomfire?

[javcs]

Transformation text indicates that you *do* gain tentacles.

Items are (potentially) usable.


Thinking a bit more about the poison, I guess it means your bite can be enhanced via venomfire?

Description also indicates that the "tentacles" are in lieu of hair. I'm dubious about just how useful they are as manipulators.


I guess you could use Venomfire, for what good it'd do you.


However ... I have no idea what class a Vargouille can reasonably be advanced as. And that's a big negative.

[Nifft]

Description also indicates that the "tentacles" are in lieu of hair. I'm dubious about just how useful they are as manipulators.

They have tentacles.
Usually, tentacles are limbs which can manipulate objects.
Nothing says they can't manipulate objects except... I don't know, what do you think implies that they can't?

However ... I have no idea what class a Vargouille can reasonably be advanced as. And that's a big negative.

Warlock (+Dex).
Dragonfire Adept (+Dex, +Con).
Binder (+Con).
Ardent (+Wis).
Cleric (+Wis).
Druid (+Wis).
Soulknife -> Soulbow (+Dex, +Wis).

The whole flying thing is a big deal at low levels where transformation is rare and gear is sparse, then at higher levels the PC may become able to transform into other forms (perhaps including other Outsiders), or gain class abilities which negate the equipment difficulties.

[Malimar]

However ... I have no idea what class a Vargouille can reasonably be advanced as. And that's a big negative.

Not any meleer, probably.

Druid, but "makes a good Druid" is an extremely low bar to clear.

Wilder or one of the other psionic classes that manifests from anything but Intelligence.

I misremember, can Incarnum users bind to chakras that correspond to body slots they don't have? I have a vague recollection that they can, but I could be making things up. If so, an Incarnate could work. If not, a Dissolving Spittle focused Incarnate could still work.

Warlock and Dragonfire Adept are always options.

Really, even if tentacles are ruled to not be prehensile, it's not much worse than a Hengeyokai or Tibbit that spends all their time in animal form -- which is a perfectly reasonable basis for many non-terrible builds.

None of those things build on the Vargouille's strengths, of course, instead just minimizing the effect of its weaknesses. But at 1-1=0RHD and low LA, no Vargouille build is going to be very focused on the race.

Anyhow, I'd say it's definitely not bad enough to be -0.

That said, the only things the vargouille really has going for it is Shriek and a fly speed.

Oh, and I guess the Outsider type, which the devs judged worthy of +1 (see: the difference between Planetouched and Lesser Planetouched), but I don't tend to think it's all that great. Makes you immune to a couple of low-level spells. I'd rather be a Living Construct and be immune to half the effects in the book.

Flight is usually gated to level 5ish, but I just the other day approved a player playing an Eagle at +0LA, which has a much better fly speed, so I'm not married to gating flight in that way.

Shriek is a mind-affecting fear-based paralysis effect, so it's not going to be effective on all foes, and it's got a pretty garbage save DC. But it's an AoE save-or-lose with a huge radius. You can pump the save DC a bit through investing in Con and Ability Focus, but you can't build an entire build around it. Either you're facing the half the MM that's immune to mind-affecting, fear, or paralysis, or you're facing something you have a 50% shot of taking out of the fight with your alpha strike. But it's only something you can use once a fight, because either they save (and are immune) or fail (and are paralyzed for at least two rounds, giving somebody time to coup de grace them). So you still need to build a real character, you can't focus on Shriek.

All of that said... I'mm'a vote +0. Not "barely" +0 like others have said; Shriek makes for a fairly solid +0, maybe even on the strong end of +0. But definitely not enough going for it to merit a +1.

[jindra34]

I misremember, can Incarnum users bind to chakras that correspond to body slots they don't have? I have a vague recollection that they can, but I could be making things up. If so, an Incarnate could work. If not, a Dissolving Spittle focused Incarnate could still work.

Sadly incarnum requires you to have the body slot to shape to a chakra... So the Vargouille makes HORRIBLE incarnum users.

[No brains]

I think the REAL question is if the tentacles can be used with a braid blade!

[Nifft]

Sadly incarnum requires you to have the body slot to shape to a chakra... So the Vargouille makes HORRIBLE incarnum users.

I'm guessing that a Vargouille has 4 or 5 (or 6) chakras: crown, brow, throat, soul, and maybe heart (plus maybe totem).

As an exercise, I went through Soulborn's binding table to figure out when the binds exceeded those limited chakras.

The answer is: never.

A Soulborn only gets 3 binds and 5 total shaped melds, so if you have heart as a valid location then Vargouille can shape all Soulborn melds and bind 3 of them, right through level 20. Without Heart, a Vargouille can use all Soulborn features up to level 19.


With Incarnate, you'd run out of places to stick melds around level 9.

Totemist runs out of places around the same level.


Not great, but more capability than I'd expected.

[zergling.exe]

I'm guessing that a Vargouille has 4 or 5 (or 6) chakras: crown, brow, throat, soul, and maybe heart (plus maybe totem).

As an exercise, I went through Soulborn's binding table to figure out when the binds exceeded those limited chakras.

The answer is: never.

A Soulborn only gets 3 binds and 5 total shaped melds, so if you have heart as a valid location then Vargouille can shape all Soulborn melds and bind 3 of them, right through level 20. Without Heart, a Vargouille can use all Soulborn features up to level 19.


With Incarnate, you'd run out of places to stick melds around level 9.

Totemist runs out of places around the same level.


Not great, but more capability than I'd expected.

The totem chakra has no corresponding body slot, so all creatures can have it. It's right in the description of the class feature.

[Remuko]

Given others ratings for the Vargy, I too concur with +0 its just not that impressive.

[Thurbane]

They have tentacles.
Usually, tentacles are limbs which can manipulate objects.
Nothing says they can't manipulate objects except... I don't know, what do you think implies that they can't?

This reminds me a little of the Phantom Fungus debate all over again.

There is no text that defines exactly what the abilities or limits of the Vargouille's tentacles are. At the end of the day, it's a DMs call. Some will rule that they have the same range and ability of manipulation as humanoid arms and hands, others will rule they are little more than the Vargouille version of hair.

Note, though, that the SRD does say this:

A vargouille’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

...this text existed before mouth pick weapons did, so there is that.

[edit] I disagree with those who are suggesting DFA as a class. Warlock, yes, I can see that. But at least part of the appeal of DFAs is their decent skill list and 4 skill points/level. -6 Int hurts this, a lot. I mean, not to say you couldn't be a DFA, but your ability to select skills is significantly hampered. [/edit]

[Nifft]

The totem chakra has no corresponding body slot, so all creatures can have it. It's right in the description of the class feature.

That's only relevant for binding; you cannot shape a soulmeld to the Totem chakra because it is special.

Since we're discussing limited number of shaped soulmeld slots in addition to the number of bound soulmelds, that latter fact seems relevant.

The Totem slot is listed as a 'maybe' because of its partial relevance.

Are we on the same page now?

Note, though, that the SRD does say this:

...this text existed before mouth pick weapons did, so there is that.

Heh, if an editorial oversight makes a monster playable rather than trash, then viva la copy-pasta.

[edit] I disagree with those who are suggesting DFA as a class. Warlock, yes, I can see that. But at least part of the appeal of DFAs is their decent skill list and 4 skill points/level. -6 Int hurts this, a lot. I mean, not to say you couldn't be a DFA, but your ability to select skills is significantly hampered. [/edit]

You can play them as Knowledge person or Social person, but that's not necessary. Here's a viable DFA which largely ignores skills:

DFA 1 - Invocation (endure exhalation) - Feat (entangling exhalation)
DFA 2 - Breath Effect (cold)
DFA 3 - Invocation (magic insight) - Feat (ability focus: shriek)
DFA 4 -
DFA 5 - Breath Effect (slow)
DFA 6 - Invocation (humanoid shape / voidsense) - Feat (ability focus: breath)

No skills needed -- except UMD, which is always desirable. That's what you'd do at 1 point per level.

The nice thing about DFA is you only really need Con, so you have a good chance to be able to afford paying for 16 Int into the build; Shriek DC and Poison DC are also Con-based (though the latter is going to be ignored).

If you can afford that large expenditure, 4 / level is okay. You can cover one area competently, and dabble a bit in another. If you did that, you'd probably choose different Invocations (e.g. Beguiling Influence for a social skilled DFA).

But that's not necessary. You can be useful (and even dominant at level 1-3) without any skill points, and credibly effective with only UMD.

[Thurbane]

Hmm, forgot about Humanoid Essence. That would be a good one for a Vargouille.

[Jormengand]

So, you get the horrifically awful array which is +0/+2/+2/-6/+2/-2. No skills for you! Follow this up by not having hands (if you try to argue that each of those 5+ tentacles I can see in the picture are fine manipulators, or meant to be, then I will laugh at you. Hahahaha!). Your only special attack that does anything is the (fear-based) scream which has such an awful DC that it's terribly unreliable, and you have to scream at your party every morning so that they're immune for the rest of the day. In return for this lack of any actual ability to do things, you get... flight. Move over dragonborn and raptoran! Oh, and we have darkvision, because that's a thing that everything and its dog seems to have. Your bite is doubleplusungood and the poison is literally useless against almost anything. Why anyone would play this, even at 0, is beyond me. The only reason I'm going to put it as high as +0 is that I don't think that it's even conceptually okay to give it an extra level in compensation.

[Inevitability]

Huh, guess I overestimated these guys. LA changed to +0.