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  1. - Top - End - #751
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Being consistent with the rest of the game is another form of internal consistency, just on a larger scale. Internal monster consistency (reflecting class consistency, such as it is) results from and contributes to the large-scale consistency.
    It should, yes.

    However right now some people are suggesting that we favor internal consistency instead of being consistent with the rest of the game.

    There should be no conflict between larger consistency (with the rest of the game) and smaller consistency (with rulings made earlier in the thread). The trouble seems to be that an earlier ruling is both acknowledged as incorrect, and also enshrined as untouchable.

  2. - Top - End - #752
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boggartbae View Post
    No it wouldn’t. If DM’s need to assign their own level adjustments, then this project is as useless as the original level adjustments. Editing past mistakes is more helpful than making more of them.
    I'm still not sure why you're saying this. Everybody here is fully supporting the idea of correcting mistakes.

    The argument you're not addressing is this one: it's naive and unrealistic to think that this project is going to be able to find the "right" LA that balances monsters against the rest of the game. Nothing in this game is balanced or internally consistent, so no matter how good we are at gauging the power levels of monsters, a good proportion of DM's out there are still going have to a make adjustments to our product anyway. This project is only ever going to be useful as a set of general guidelines: it will never be a definitive resource that you can just plug-and-play at any table with no problems.

    -----

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    However right now some people are suggesting that we favor internal consistency instead of being consistent with the rest of the game.
    My argument is that "consistency with the rest of the game" is an oxymoron: the game isn't even consistent with itself, so how can we realistically expect our project to be consistent with the game? Being consistent with ourselves is the only realistic goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    There should be no conflict between larger consistency (with the rest of the game) and smaller consistency (with rulings made earlier in the thread).
    But, there will be conflicts between "game-wide consistency" and "internal consistency," because inconsistency is the nature of the game. So, anything we do on this thread is going to be inconsistent with other parts of the rest of the game. There's no avoiding that, so it's a completely useless standard to set for ourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    The trouble seems to be that an earlier ruling is both acknowledged as incorrect, and also enshrined as untouchable.
    I honestly don't know what I think about the correctness or incorrectness of the shadow's LA. But, there are a lot of differing opinions out there on most of the monsters, so now that I'm seeing three people who disagree with the LA assigned to the shadow... well, I still don't have an opinion on it, because people disagreeing about what is and isn't powerful is kind of the norm around here.

    Is LA +4 "right" for the shadow? I don't know: how could I know? It's a weird monster that I've never seen a PC use before, so how can I possibly know how it compares to a swift hunter, a shield charger, a dread necromancer 20, a spell-to-power erudite, a binder of Leraje, etc? My best judgment is that, if the thread consensus was leaning towards LA +3, maybe it makes sense to go with LA +3, and modify it based on my own experience if I ever end up DM-ing for a shadow PC. Or, maybe it makes sense to just go with what's in the archives right now, because that seems to be the thread's unspoken rule. All I can really be confident about is that the wraith and the shadow seem kind of comparable, so whatever rating the shadow gets, the wraith's ECL shouldn't be very different from it.

    But, TL;DR, the point is that we can't seriously expect this thread to give us "right" answers: it's a resource to help DM's make decisions, and nothing more.
    Last edited by Blue Jay; 2017-11-14 at 01:18 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    I'm still not sure why you're saying this. Everybody here is fully supporting the idea of correcting mistakes.
    Sorry. There's been a misunderstanding then. I thought that people wanted to give the wraith more LA than it needed for the sake of the shadow, but if people are in agreement about going back and editing, then I'll just drop this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    The argument you're not addressing is this one: it's naive and unrealistic to think that this project is going to be able to find the "right" LA that balances monsters against the rest of the game. Nothing in this game is balanced or internally consistent, so no matter how good we are at gauging the power levels of monsters, a good proportion of DM's out there are still going have to a make adjustments to our product anyway. This project is only ever going to be useful as a set of general guidelines: it will never be a definitive resource that you can just plug-and-play at any table with no problems.
    It's pretty close though! I know it's hard. I've always loved playing monster races, which has led to a lot of working with my DM to assign LA to em dash creatures. It's hard, and sometimes you break the game. I highly doubt that these monsters are going to be thoroughly playtested before getting an LA assignment, and I know that we're just eyeballing, but a lot of the monsters are pretty spot on, to the point where they are plug and play.

    Finally, about the internal consistency, maybe it would be a good idea to think of how you would build the monster, and then think about how much more powerful it would be than a normal character of that class. Like is a wraith fighter with 2 necrotic daggers much better than a normal fighter? I know that comparing wizard monsters to fighter monsters is futile, but assigning an LA to a monster based on which class it fits is our best bet.

    Anyway sorry if I'm coming of as aggressive. It's just a game.
    Last edited by Boggartbae; 2017-11-15 at 03:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357 View Post
    I think I would agree with Boggartbae

  4. - Top - End - #754
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Boggartbae View Post
    Sorry. There's been a misunderstanding then. I thought that people wanted to give the wraith more LA than it needed for the sake of the shadow, but if people are in agreement about going back and editing, then I'll just drop this.
    Yeah, my original comment was "you can't go below ECL 7 for the wraith, because the shadow is ECL 7." It's pretty obvious that the misunderstandings all started there, and then I failed to clarify and got distracted talking past everyone about other things. I was just assuming that we weren't supposed to change monsters that have already been done, so I thought the only option was to make the wraith play at ECL 7 or higher.

    Maybe we can just restart from that point? Inevitability started the Wraith at LA +4, and there have been several votes for LA +/-0, and some for LA +2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boggartbae View Post
    I've always loved playing monster races, which has led to a lot of working with my DM to assign LA to em dash creatures. It's hard, and sometimes you break the game. I highly doubt that these monsters are going to be thoroughly playtested before getting an LA assignment, and I know that we're just eyeballing, but a lot of the monsters are pretty spot on, to the point where they are plug and play.
    I offered the reassigned LA's to the players in my PbP game at Myth-Weavers, but only one of them took me up on it. He's playing an ogre (with LA +0). That obviously isn't one of the ones that needed a lot of playtesting, but it's a start, I guess.

    Maybe we should keep track of the monsters that seem the hardest for us all to agree on (nymph, ogre mage, vampire, etc), and then run some build competitions using those monsters to see some possibilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boggartbae View Post
    Finally, about the internal consistency, maybe it would be a good idea to think of how you would build the monster, and then think about how much more powerful it would be than a normal character of that class. Like is a wraith fighter with 2 necrotic daggers much better than a normal fighter? I know that comparing wizard monsters to fighter monsters is futile, but assigning an LA to a monster based on which class it fits is our best bet.
    That's pretty much how Inevitability's been doing it, and it does make a lot of sense. Maybe I'll just stop trying to impose my philosophy on the thread and let it move forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boggartbae View Post
    Anyway sorry if I'm coming of as aggressive. It's just a game.
    Yeah, I'm sorry too. I seem to be good at derailing threads with stuff like this.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Wyvern


    We're nearing the end: just six more monsters! (not including the tons of animals in the back)

    Wyverns are dragons and have 7 RHD by default. I wouldn't be surprised if some people end up playing an 8-RHD one, though: huge size with the corresponding ability bonuses is neat.

    They're quite straightforward monsters: flight speed, six natural attacks and free Multiattack, a poison stinger that deals considerable amounts of constitution damage, improved grab, and the typical draconic immunity to sleep and paralysis. Ability scores are okay and improve with the additional HD mentioned above.

    For 7-8 levels, it's a neat package, but I don't think it's worth a positive LA. +0 for now, do offer feedback.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I am torn-no hands or manipulators is a huge problem, and -4 Int is ugly, but it is a very solid martial chassis. It pushes a build into natural attacks, but the physical ability scores are rather tame for a 7HD brawler. It has a powerful poison attack and natural flight, but poor maneuverability and terrible ground speed for Large size. It has 7 Racial HD, but they are Dragon-which by itself is almost as good as some of the weaker classes.

    I guess I would settle on +0 for 7HD, but I think LA+1 is in order if the DM allows the player to advance 1 racial HD to Huge. That is just too big a gain for one level.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Wyvern:

    Large (7 hd) => Str +8, Dex +2, Con +4, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha -2 => net +10, not bad at all
    Huge (8 hd) => Str +16, Dex ±0, Con +8, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha -2 => net +20, that's good

    Int penalty isn't fun, but it's only -4, and the racial HD are Dragon HD so they're actually decent for skills once we eliminate the penalty.


    Paths of progress:
    - Totemist 12 (ranged attacks: check, teleporation: check, plus there's a soulmeld that beefs up all natural attacks and Wyvern has a lot of those, PLUS plus there's Girallon Arms for a truly high Grapple check)
    - Swordsage 12 (Hide & Move Silently are racial class skills, so this would be a hilariously skillful huge ninja dragon)
    - Barbarian 12 (+16 to Strength and natural Flight both go a long way)
    - Binder 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Tenebrous Apostate 5 / ___ 4 (hello default T1 shenanigan)
    - Ardent 2 / Slayer 10 (hello other default shenanigan, not quite as good as Ur-Priest but still manifests as if level 15)

  8. - Top - End - #758
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Dragon hit dice are better than fighter levels, so I don't think I can count those as a drawback. The ordinary wyvern benefits from a hardly-weak full attack routine with six attacks, +8/+2/+4/-4/+2/-2 which is +14 to the stats you care about and -4 to the ones you don't, a nasty poison which actually helps you kill the enemy faster (and the DC can easily be buffed to 19 or 20 just with points in CON), improved grab, darkvision, some immunities, scent and flight. In return, you give up... hands. Which is fine, because your natural weapon routine is respectable (read: terrifying) enough anyway. If desperate you can use a footbow.

    Huge size gives a bunch of extra benefits in exchange for mostly-irrelevant size penalties and having to take another barbarian//ranger level dragon hit die, woe is you. You have more strength, bigger weapons, and harder-to-resist poison.

    I think that going gargantuan deserves a mention too. You're "Wasting" an additional 3 hit dice making the fighter cry himself to sleep each night, but in return you get another +8 strength, another +4 constitution, and a bite so strong that Table: Increased Damage by Size gives up on telling you how strong (it's 4d8 - thanks, Table: Larger and Smaller Weapon Damage!)

    To me, it seems that the wyvern is just stronger than most fighter-types without really having to try. The gargantuan version's full attack deals 120 points of damage before you actually have a base bonus to strength. If you put an 18 in strength, you're doing 140 instead. CON-16 fighter only has 98 hit points at level 11. Oh, and you have Improved Grab and a hilarious grapple bonus, so you can always do that too.

    I honestly don't know what LA to give these, but it's gotta be more than nothing. If the comparison point is a fighter or even barbarian, I'd be tempted by around +3.

  9. - Top - End - #759
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I honestly don't know what LA to give these, but it's gotta be more than nothing. If the comparison point is a fighter or even barbarian, I'd be tempted by around +3.
    I find this argument compelling and am inclined to agree.

    Huge and Gargantuan for 1 and 4 extra RHD is a good answer to a question I posed last week, and the ability to take levels in Bigness seems to me a selling point rather than a waste of levels (especially as they're good Dragon HD).

    However: lack of hand-like manipulators (which at best you need to spend WBL accounting for through grafts or whatnot and at worst blocks you from doing just about anything skill-related) is medium-crippling. It's unfortunate that it gets Sting instead of Tail, otherwise you could just take the Prehensile Tail feat and be adequate -- although the Sting poison is very good, so I dunno. A generous DM might allow the tail-based Sting to qualify for Prehensile Tail (and if your DM is consulting this thread at all, they're probably reasonably generous).

    At LA+0, it'd be an extremely strong tier 4 (extremely good at beating faces, extremely poor at everything else and thus never gonna be tier 3). Put another way: Given a choice between an LA+0 wyvern and any tier 4 or 5 class, I'd pick the wyvern; given a choice between an LA+0 wyvern and any tier 3 class, I'd pick the tier 3 class.

    Given the intent people have raised in the past of comparing like against like, I think we need to assign an LA that makes wyvern competitive with (i.e., not strictly better than) tier 4. Given that Dragon RHD are (as Jormengand alluded to) virtually tier 4 on their own... I think my vote is gonna wind up +2.
    Last edited by Malimar; 2017-11-15 at 06:32 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Wyvern's in kind of a funny place. It's good as-is, sure.

    However, it's primarily good in combat. It's not so good at pretty much every other area of gameplay - its size (and body form) inhibits stealth, exploration, entry into most/nearly all (semi-)civilized areas for most diplomatic/social encounters, etc. Advancing its racial hit die will make it better at combat, but worse at everything else.


    It's more mono-focused on combat than a fighter or barbarian, but it's pretty solidly better at combat than either. Probably by a couple levels.

    On the other hand, it doesn't have hands or other full-time and fully-capable manipulating appendages. And it's probably not going to be able to go to, much less contribute to, most activities taking place anywhere other than the wild, outside of any inhabitations/inhabited areas and fully outside.

    I'm leaning towards a LA +2, with a DM caution. Especially if racial HD advancement is on the table. A Wyvern is likely to be limited in the ways and times it can viably contribute and even be present, unless the campaign is designed to take its limitations into account.

    --

    Wraiths (and Shadows, and Spectres) should probably have a DM Caution Marker on them as well.
    No DM is ever truly out of tricks to mess with his/her players.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Wyvern's in kind of a funny place. It's good as-is, sure.

    However, it's primarily good in combat. It's not so good at pretty much every other area of gameplay - its size (and body form) inhibits stealth, exploration, entry into most/nearly all (semi-)civilized areas for most diplomatic/social encounters, etc. Advancing its racial hit die will make it better at combat, but worse at everything else.
    Ironically, it has both stealth skills on its racial HD proficiency list.

    Your best social bet is to pretend you're someone's mount. That gets you into town, at which point you can talk to people and pleasantly surprise them.

    Actually, in combat you're pretty great as a legit mount. If you can somehow get yourself a nice Cleric or Druid rider, you can get your natural attacks buffed significantly. It'd be even better if you were the Familiar or Animal Companion, but you're not, so deal with the limited-yet-excellent buff selection.

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    Question Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Your best social bet is to pretend you're someone's mount. That gets you into town, at which point you can talk to people and pleasantly surprise them.
    Maybe a Hat of Disguise, and pretend to be a Pegasus?

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Maybe a Hat of Disguise, and pretend to be a Pegasus?
    You could do that, but then people will start bringing you hay and expecting you to eat it.

    Seems over-complicated.

    If you've got a hat of disguise, make yourself a carnivore like a Sphinx or Lammasu or something.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Don't wyverns have the Dragon type? It seems like a hat of disguise would fail miserably if so.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I for one don't see why people would object if it just tried to disguise itself as some kind of beneficent dragon. And I don't think that purely RP drawbacks should factor into level adjustment anyway. What, should drow have less LA because surface elves will be jerks to you? I don't think so.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    Maybe we should keep track of the monsters that seem the hardest for us all to agree on (nymph, ogre mage, vampire, etc), and then run some build competitions using those monsters to see some possibilities
    This sounds really fun. I’ll start a thread tomorrow if no one does before then. I would love to participate, and it would certainly take the load off and help visualise things, especially for the caster types. Who knows, maybe a sword’n’board wraith with a necrotic weapon is way more powerful than a fighter, or maybe they actually make awesome barbarians

    Anyway on to the wyvern!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperMagnum357 View Post
    I think I would agree with Boggartbae

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Ironically, it has both stealth skills on its racial HD proficiency list.

    Your best social bet is to pretend you're someone's mount. That gets you into town, at which point you can talk to people and pleasantly surprise them.
    car
    Actually, in combat you're pretty great as a legit mount. If you can somehow get yourself a nice Cleric or Druid rider, you can get your natural attacks buffed significantly. It'd be even better if you were the Familiar or Animal Companion, but you're not, so deal with the limited-yet-excellent buff selection.
    Yes, it has Hide and Move Silently as class skills. However, being Large, or racial advancing to get even bigger, is not so good for carrying out stealthy activities. Ignoring the size penalty to Hide checks, being that big hinders your ability to move around in most of the places where stealth is required/more important. After all - stealth only matters when you're trying to sneak past something/someone, and you're most likely going to need to sneak past someone/something when in a space-limited/constrained area - ie, inside a (semi-)civilized or constructed environment, or inside a denser forest. In less confined spaces, your size reduces your ability to acquire cover/concealment.

    Pretending to be someone's mount only goes so far. It may or may not get you into a town/past the gate, but it's not going to get you inside of most buildings (shops, meeting spaces for employer interviews, other businesses, etc). Ignoring the fact that mounts generally need to remain outside/go into stables, you're going to have trouble fitting inside.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I for one don't see why people would object if it just tried to disguise itself as some kind of beneficent dragon. And I don't think that purely RP drawbacks should factor into level adjustment anyway. What, should drow have less LA because surface elves will be jerks to you? I don't think so.
    Wyverns and (True) Dragons have decidedly different bodyshapes. Also, Wyverns are going to be much more common than true dragons, and probably are going to be viewed much the same way as conventional/traditional apex predators.


    Purely RP drawbacks, sure. But drawbacks that affect RP-aspects that are based on the physical characteristics of the creature? Those matter.
    Being too big to fit inside the shop, or inside the meeting room where an potential employer is speaking with the rest of the party? Being too big to fit inside the tunnel/corridor/building that the rest of the party is going into? That's not a purely RP drawback - it'll affect your ability to RP (because you won't be able to be in the room), but it'll also affect your ability to do a lot of other things too.



    --

    Look, being bigger is a good thing in combat. It's not so useful outside of combat, most of the time, and can be a bad thing for a lot of the non-combat activities of "typical" gameplay.
    This is something that we haven't really gotten into that much, but it's still true.

    Combat value is not the only metric relevant for assessing LA.
    No DM is ever truly out of tricks to mess with his/her players.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I'll go with +0.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Huh. For some reason, I thought that wyverns were magical beasts. I don't know why.

    Anyways, I'll vote for +0. However, I can accept +1.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I'd say for the base wyvern +0 is right; when it gets the benefits of the size increases by adding racial hit dice, especially if given the full +str boosts, that can change it to +1.
    The monster advancement rules note that getting a size increase should give a CR increase; but it doesn't say anything about an LA increase, because such was never really anticipated in the design. and of course in actual statted out monsters at various sizes (like the elementals), it doesn't just hand out the size increase stat boosts all at once, it phases them in slowly.
    A neat custom class for 3.5 system
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616

    A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
    https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/

    An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I will put a vote in on Wyvern for +0.

    Yes it is solid. Yes advancing in 1-4 RHD makes it very good at hitting things with those size bonuses. I don't think anyone outside of a group that doesn't optimize though will find hitting things and lots of HP overpowering though. The lack of class features can hurt it's flexibility to. Also all the out of combat issues make it hard to participate in many of the activities that don't involve hitting things until they stop moving. Yes they might make the Fighter look bad but I don't know if they will completely outpace Warblades and Crusaders in combat and I consider that the bar for martial classes.

    Also people seem to forget their massive size and slow land speed and almost non-existent flight maneuverability. Look it up on the SRD, moving in combat with clumsy maneuverability sucks and makes it hard to full attack all the time.

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    Post Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Wyvern



    • Large Dragon (no reach).
    • 20 ft, fly 60 ft (poor): a decent fly speed is always nice.
    • +8 natural AC: not bad.
    • 4 (or 6) natural weapons: not bad either.
    • Poison: one of the stronger types in the game (2d6 con): nice.
    • Improved Grab: not bad.
    • Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to sleep and paralysis, low-light vision, scent: again, not bad.
    • Str +8, Dex +2, Con +4, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha -2: net +10. -4 to Int hurts. Decent stats for a melee type.
    • 7RHD of a good type (full BAB, all good saves); small but useful set of racial skills; Dragon type opens a lot of feat and PrC options.

    Pros: good physical stats, flight, large size, natural attacks, poison, dragon type; cons: 7RHD, nonhumanoid shape (and no hands to speak of; talons may help with this somewhat), -4 Int.

    I think LA +0 is fine here. The RHD, non-humanoid form and hit to Int balance out against the benefits.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    [*]Poison: one of the stronger types in the dame (2d6 con): nice.
    That's what she said.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    It's been a while since I've been here, so here's a list of comments I made, sorted by the monster they're about (nominally, at least). Note that I skimmed past most squabbles over precise LA, so the comments should mostly be as relevant now as they ever would have been.

    Spoiler: Trolls
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    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    No skills, no Wills, no... something else pithy that fits.
    No skills, no wills, no social frills? (Or "social frills"?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Free marital weapons is icing.
    It's a bit late to poke fun at a typo, but...I've been playing Fire Emblem Heroes, so I'm imagining a troll beating someone up with a candlestick or a giant spoon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    IIRC the final result is more of an average than a consensus vote, so picking +2 isn't a risk of handing the victory to +0 instead of +1.

    Vote your convictions.
    This isn't like a presidential election, where voting for a moderate candidate just takes votes from the big-party guy you dislike less. (Or where voting for an extremist candidate takes votes from the sane one on your side.)
    Though I'm not gonna lie, I'd pay to see what the world would be like if we could choose heads of state based on the weighted average of the candidates. Imagine a president who was half Trump, half Clinton...

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    I think if trolls were +0. I would be eager to give them a try. At +1, I'd still be interested. At +2, I would probably pass them up.
    Sounds like a decent argument for +1 LA. If you're too eager at LA +0, that could be indicative of them being a mite overpowered.

    Spoiler: Unicorn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    They do get a pair of hoof attacks and a horn, though (which for some reason can all be used against the same creature).
    Look at the picture. Clearly, unicorns are capable of boxing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    ... now about that teleport-around-home, there's got to be some way to make that useful, but it's probably only going to happen at the campaign level. Some kind of Sylvan Urban hybrid city, I guess, where you play as wardens of both the environment and the municipality... "The Thin Green Line". Yeah, I'd play that.
    For some reason, I got the image of a noir city-garden, with a grizzled unicorn in a trenchcoat smoking a stogie waiting for some dame to come into his stable with a job. And other detective cliches. (Blade Runner is probably the only noir film I've seen, so I'm drawing that from some vaguely-recalled parodies.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    I've also got a silly image in my head of a unicorn with an uber-charger paladin/cavalier as a cohort: I wonder how well that could keep up with a centaur?
    That depends. Does the cohort get to ride his boss? If the unicorn has to wait for some guy on foot, the centaur's running ahead.

    Spoiler: Vampire
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    Random note: Is it just me, or does it seem odd that things which apply to monstrous humanoids rarely apply to giants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Miller View Post
    I feel like this is hard to rate because of the number of things you get. It is moreso the quantity than quality though.
    Exactly.
    The vampire has a series of weaknesses that are tricky to plan around but usually don't affect the vampire much once planned (until some bastard comes along to overturn those plans), and a series of abilities which are tricky to find uses for without good planning. The vampire's power is going to fluctuate wildly depending on how well the player plans, how hard the DM tries to leverage the vampiric weaknesses ("No, the baron inviting you to dinner last month doesn't let you break into his manor now"), and all sorts of other factors completely outside the template itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    ...and also if you're a vampire cleric you have to recoil from yourself every time you cast a spell with a DF component...
    While the mental image is hilarious, do unholy symbols count as holy symbols for the purpose of driving off vampires? I know the PHB makes a distinction...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Has anyone made a 3.5 Vampire handbook?
    If not, I might be interested in starting one when I get some downtime...
    Have you made it yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    And that was before Libris Mortis introduced rules for how often you need to feed. And curiously, a Vampire/Vampire Spawn can more easily go without blood for longer than they can go without level draining someone per those Libris Mortis rules.
    Which conjures a mental image of a vampire stalking some poor vagrant, drawing him into a secluded corner...and then punching him a bunch until he's a withered husk with a black eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    The spell is here. On reading it, I'd say no to both questions (I don't even know how you could construe a yes to the privacy issue).
    "I'm not in your living room, I'm under the oak tree this acorn came from!"
    "Is that how you're getting forest mud on my rug?"

    Spoiler: Will-O-the-Wisp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    The Will-O'-Wisp, best known for being absolutely ridiculous when combined with any template anywhere. Gravetouched Ghoul is most notorious, but many others work as well.
    Google-Fu has failed me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    Cutesy anime starring anthropomorphic versions of spells? Spellcasting has been ruined forever
    I'd watch that anime. Well, okay, I'd read its TV Tropes page, looking for reasons to watch it.

    Spoiler: Wraith
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhasenan View Post
    Just curious, do you have a lot of campaigns that don't involve being above ground during the day?
    Wait, shadows aren't vulnerable to light? What are WotC smoking?

    Spoiler: Wyvern
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Maybe a Hat of Disguise, and pretend to be a Pegasus?
    You could do that, but then people will start bringing you hay and expecting you to eat it.
    This thread is a goldmine for hilarious mental images.

    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Combat value is not the only metric relevant for assessing LA.
    Quoted for truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    Huh. For some reason, I thought that wyverns were magical beasts. I don't know why.
    Let's be honest, they might as well be.
    ...Some of my best friends are wyverns.
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
    Quotes, more

    Negative LA Assignment Thread
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zancloufer View Post
    Yes they might make the Fighter look bad but I don't know if they will completely outpace Warblades and Crusaders in combat and I consider that the bar for martial classes.
    I'll ignore the fact that both classes explicitly use (blade) magic and say...

    I think that eleven levels in dragon and a bunch of +stats outdoes both of them, too. For a start, 6 skills is nothing to turn your nose up and is more out-of-combat ability than a crusader even dreams of, given that his ability out of combat is essentially relegated to "I break doors." Guess what, I have a strength modifier of seventeen, I break doors too.

    Second, a warblade or crusader has trouble standing up to a few hundred damage and 7 CON damage (which is in itself level*4 more damage, or at least loss of hit points) without resorting to ubercharging which makes you look phenomenally silly if you roll a 1 and which any class (or RHD) can honestly do. Give your wyvern pyschic warrior levels or something else with psionic lion's charge (ardent with expanded knowledge?) and it can ubercharge too.

    When you're more versatile and perhaps even stronger than most of the Tome of Magic: Swords Edition classes, you probably deserve a level adjustment.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    "I'm not in your living room, I'm under the oak tree this acorn came from!"
    "Is that how you're getting forest mud on my rug?"
    Can I sig this?
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

    Extended signature!

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Can I sig this?
    Go right ahead.
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    Negative LA Assignment Thread
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    ...Some of my best friends are wyverns.
    [/spoiler]
    ...Well that has to suck for intellectual conversation, given the double-digit difference in Intelligence baselines.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I'll ignore the fact that both classes explicitly use (blade) magic and say...

    I think that eleven levels in dragon and a bunch of +stats outdoes both of them, too. For a start, 6 skills is nothing to turn your nose up and is more out-of-combat ability than a crusader even dreams of, given that his ability out of combat is essentially relegated to "I break doors." Guess what, I have a strength modifier of seventeen, I break doors too.

    Second, a warblade or crusader has trouble standing up to a few hundred damage and 7 CON damage (which is in itself level*4 more damage, or at least loss of hit points) without resorting to ubercharging which makes you look phenomenally silly if you roll a 1 and which any class (or RHD) can honestly do. Give your wyvern pyschic warrior levels or something else with psionic lion's charge (ardent with expanded knowledge?) and it can ubercharge too.

    When you're more versatile and perhaps even stronger than most of the Tome of Magic: Swords Edition classes, you probably deserve a level adjustment.
    Hmm. If you went for the 11 Dragon HD as a Wyvern you would gain:

    +11 BaB, 11d12 HD, 6+int Skills and 3 good saves. Slightly better than a Warblade and an upgrade for sure from a Crusader. Do remember the -4 Int offsets their 6+int skill points though and they start to fall behind later so they actually have a skill deficit in the long run.

    +24 Str, +12 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Int/Cha +15 NA, -4 AC/attack and - 12 to hide. Solid gains but their touch AC will be crap and while the NA is very nice it more so offsets the trouble of getting armour than anything. That +12 Con is nice I will admit.

    6 Natural Attacks and free Multi-attack. Nasty. Very nasty. Not seeing the 300+ damage though. Probably 180 ish with a full attack and some expensive magic items to upgrade your natural attacks. Remember that only 4 of their attacks get full str, their wings only gain 1/2 str. Also I would think it not possible to attack with your wings while flying and with talons while walking so you almost never get your full 6 attacks off.

    20ft walking speed: Ouch, slow walker. Also while 60ft flight is nice to look at they are poor maneuverability. No Hovering, no reversing, half-10ft speed when ascending, it takes a most of your movement to turn around (45 deg per 5 ft = 40 ft movement to 180 and it's not even a proper 180 as you end up beside where you where). I would not knock the problems with moving around and lack of hands.

    Also lack of class features. Yes you can catch up to an extent but if you go for all 11 dragon HD your capped at 14 IL or 9 CL/ML which assumes the game even runs to level 20.

    (Note on full attack math. If you have +12 str from levels/gear/etc and and effective +3 Natural attack it would be something like Bite +28 4d8+21, Sting +26 2d6+21, Wing 2x +26 2d6+12 and Talons 2x +26 4d6+21 which is about ~172 if all attacks hit and you can full attack and the DM doesn't scoff at your using both wings and talons at the same time. You could power attack for up to 55 extra damage but your still short of 300 by a fair margin)

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