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  1. - Top - End - #871
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    1. Awful lot of discussion for something so clear and obvious.
    Hardly. And, as Caelestion said: we're going off of memory here, and sometimes old memories.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    2. I'm not sure what Niffft's quoting, exactly, but they sure sound related. Which isn't surprising, since they use many of the same rules.
    The etherealness-incorporealty connection only exists for Material Plane creatures trying to interact with Ethereal Plane creatures: the ethereal creatures are treated as incorporeal, invisible, and silent (which is redundant, because incorporeal creatures are also silent). However, ethereal creatures are perfectly corporeal to one another, and there's nothing preventing you from going incorporeal on the Ethereal Plane.

    It's probably easiest if you think in terms of four layers:
    corporeal incorporeal
    material regular folks incorporeal folks
    ethereal plane shifted folks plane shifted incorporeal folks

    Each layer has certain rules governing how they interact. Typically, creatures in the same box affect one another much like ordinary physical creatures do. For example, incorporeal creatures can fight one another with natural weapons, and they cannot occupy the same space (there are also some exceptions, but okay). The corporeal/material layer treats the incorporeal/material layer much like the ethereal layer.
    Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2017-11-27 at 06:52 AM.
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    Read ExLibrisMortis' post...

    WHY IS THERE NO LIKE BUTTON?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
    My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).

  2. - Top - End - #872
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Xorn


    Kids, don't do trimerism. It's bad for you.

    Xorn come in three sizes, continuing the pattern seen in arrowhawks, salamanders, and tojanidas. Regardless of age, they have high natural armor (we're talking +12-16 here), immunity to cold and fire, resistance to electricity, tremorsense, DR 5/bludgeoning, a burrow speed with Earth Glide, and all-around vision, which I must admit is a pretty neat set of defensive benefits.

    Minor Xorn

    For 3 RHD, the aforementioned benefits are quite nice, and minor xorns have a strength bonus (despite being Small), a very strong bite attack, and three supplementary claws. +12 natural armor is impressive as well.

    Even if their special abilities aren't anything to write home about, I feel like minor xorns will have a considerable impact on combat, and in addition their RHD are low enough to allow access to prestige classes without the usual struggles. For now, I'll give it +1 LA.

    Average Xorn

    Two points of strength, a size increase, +2 natural armor and bigger natural weapons, plus Cleave as a bonus feat for some reason. Not worth four extra RHD, that's for sure. -0 LA.

    Elder Xorn

    Actual stat increases this time, but even bigger RHD increases. Also, 'walking through rock' isn't sufficient noncombat utility at these levels, if it ever was at all. -0 LA.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

    Extended signature!

  3. - Top - End - #873
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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Xorn
    I agree on all three; +1 / -0 / -0
    3.5 Cast - A GitP member made, third edition podcast
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    DMG 3.5e page 41:
    "If a player behaves in a way you don't want them to behave, talk to them about it. If they continue, stop playing with them. "
    By RAW, you have to stop playing with the guy.

  4. - Top - End - #874
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Minor Xorn

    Str +4, Con +4 => net +8, no penalties, pretty spiffy

    Natural Armor +12 is enough to ignore the funky character shape's impact on armor purchases for quite a while.

    SQ: All-around vision, earth glide, damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to cold and fire, resistance to electricity 10, tremorsense 60 ft.

    All-Around Vision (Ex): A xornís symmetrically placed eyes allow it to look in any direction, providing a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks. A xorn canít be flanked.

    Earth Glide (Ex): A xorn can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing xorn flings the xorn back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.


    This is some good stuff.

    The ability to swim under walls & up cliff faces, and through the floors & ceilings of caverns, is significant mobility.

    You could make a sneaky Pounce Barbarian who identifies a vulnerable target in the back ranks, and charges up from below.

    You're natively an anti-Rogue, with Flank immunity and Tremorsense outright negating most Hide checks.


    I'd probably use this guy as a gish base -- those Outsider HD come with free martial weapon proficiency, after all -- but Barb 1 / Totemist 2 / Totem Rager might also be fun.

    Verdict: LA +1 (at least) on top of the 3 RHD.

    EDIT: Thinking about it, LA +1 might not be enough. But LA +2 is really harsh. Hmm.
    Last edited by Nifft; 2017-11-27 at 12:08 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #875
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Elder is definitely -0, far too many RHD.
    Minor is +1, maybe even a +2; the abilities can be very useful in lower level games, and some remain quite relevant later on.
    I agree that the average one isn't much of an improvement, and outsider HD are still only racial HD; but it kinda feels like the average xorn would still be playable at ECL 7. so it might deserve a weak +0 rather than a -0.

    the xorn's have a solid skill list.
    A neat custom class for 3.5 system
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616

    A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
    https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/

    An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system

  6. - Top - End - #876
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    OrcBarbarianGirl

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    This gets me thinking: how many HD should a Xorn have to be LA+0? Somewhere between minor and average must be a butter zone of power for these guys. Perhaps that +1 to LA could be taken as a hit die?
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    This thread, Questions that can't be answered... Answered by RAW by No brains, is Epic.
    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    That is so stupid it's hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    ...I've clearly been playing D&D for too long, because that made a demented kind of sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by that_one_kobold View Post
    And this is why I love D&D

  7. - Top - End - #877
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    This gets me thinking: how many HD should a Xorn have to be LA+0? Somewhere between minor and average must be a butter zone of power for these guys. Perhaps that +1 to LA could be taken as a hit die?
    Average Xorn might be +0.

    Immunity to cold & fire is pretty great.

    Earth Glide is pretty great.

    7 Outsider HD with +10 stats and no stat penalties can be decent for a T3/T4 melee character, especially in combo with the other goodies (tremorsense, +12 natural armor, claw/claw/bonusclaw/bite).

    If you simply must be a T1/T2 character, you've still got Divine Crusader -> Sovereign Speaker, and seven Outsider HD are no worse than many other full-BAB prefixes. (For accelerated casting, you've also got Ur-Priest and Apostle of Peace.)

  8. - Top - End - #878
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Average Xorn might be +0.

    Immunity to cold & fire is pretty great.

    Earth Glide is pretty great.

    7 Outsider HD with +10 stats and no stat penalties can be decent for a T3/T4 melee character, especially in combo with the other goodies (tremorsense, +12 natural armor, claw/claw/bonusclaw/bite).
    It the bar is T4, even the elder xorn compares well to a barbarian.

  9. - Top - End - #879
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    +1 +0 -0

    Outsider HD are good, but the 2 larger Xorn do not have enough going for them to justify that much RHD, even comparing to non-initiator martials.

  10. - Top - End - #880
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Also, 'walking through rock' isn't sufficient noncombat utility at these levels, if it ever was at all. -0 LA.
    I mean, it lets you bypass all sorts of dungeon defenses (which is most useful if you can unlock the defenses from the other side, but has utility either way). Also, it can probably move through stone walls in the middle of combat, which should offer some interesting opportunities. It will also help alleviate the side effects of being Large in cramped underground corridors...unless the residents installed plaster or something, of course.


    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    This gets me thinking: how many HD should a Xorn have to be LA+0? Somewhere between minor and average must be a butter zone of power for these guys. Perhaps that +1 to LA could be taken as a hit die?
    It does make them slightly stronger (more HP, more BAB, better saves...) +2 HD might be required.
    The proper LA/RHD ratio is about as easy to intuit as LA is in the first place.
    P.S. ...Interesting username. I assume it was chosen willingly?
    Last edited by GreatWyrmGold; 2017-11-27 at 04:43 PM.
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
    Quotes, more

    Negative LA Assignment Thread
    The Tale of Demman, Second King of Ireland, a CKII AAR, won a WritAAR of the Week award. Winner of Villainous Competition 8
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  11. - Top - End - #881
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    It the bar is T4, even the elder xorn compares well to a barbarian.
    Inevitable's bar is T3/T4.

    My bar is "whatever class seems best" -- my thinking is that informed players will only choose a race that's a good fit for the sort of game they expect to play, so if the best use for a race is Barbarian, then I assume the race will only be used in games where Barbarians are relevant.

  12. - Top - End - #882
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I mean, it lets you bypass all sorts of dungeon defenses (which is most useful if you can unlock the defenses from the other side, but has utility either way). Also, it can probably move through stone walls in the middle of combat, which should offer some interesting opportunities. It will also help alleviate the side effects of being Large in cramped underground corridors...unless the residents installed plaster or something, of course.
    Sure, but your allies can't go with you, and unless you pop out of the stone you won't learn anything other than a room's sounds and number of earthbound occupants. That's what, a 3rd-level spell? Even paladins could be casting it by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    P.S. ...Interesting username. I assume it was chosen willingly?
    It's D&D: not having brains is arguably an advantage. It doesn't have to affect intelligence, but it does immunize you to one of the most unavoidable instant-death attacks there is.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

    Extended signature!

  13. - Top - End - #883
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    So when the Ancient Egyptians removed corpses brains, they were optimising them for the afterlife?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Therefore, you just need a taller statue -- or a sufficiently high pedestal for your statue, if you're a cheese-weasel -- to permanently kill any god in 2e.

  14. - Top - End - #884
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coretron03 View Post
    So when the Ancient Egyptians removed corpses brains, they were optimising them for the afterlife?
    Yes, the practice dates back to the Pharaoh Munchkinhotep I.

  15. - Top - End - #885
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coretron03 View Post
    So when the Ancient Egyptians removed corpses brains, they were optimising them for the afterlife?
    I'd call that sig-worthy.
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
    Quotes, more

    Negative LA Assignment Thread
    The Tale of Demman, Second King of Ireland, a CKII AAR, won a WritAAR of the Week award. Winner of Villainous Competition 8
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  16. - Top - End - #886
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coretron03 View Post
    So when the Ancient Egyptians removed corpses brains, they were optimising them for the afterlife?
    Yes, the practice dates back to the Pharaoh Munchkinhotep I.
    This exchange is the kind of thing that gives me a reason to stay on this site.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    There's a reason why we bap your nose, not crucify you, for thread necromancy.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    It does make them slightly stronger (more HP, more BAB, better saves...) +2 HD might be required.
    The proper LA/RHD ratio is about as easy to intuit as LA is in the first place.
    P.S. ...Interesting username. I assume it was chosen willingly?
    I wonder if players would take LA/HD trades on other creatures. Some are probably too strong for that to work, but I getting to ECL=HD would be a nice way to streamline character advancement.

    As for my name, I did choose it willingly. I use it partly as a reminder not to get too invested in my points of view. I want to follow the rule that comes before rule 0 and just have fun here. I can think as hard as I want and I may even make some good points from doing so, but I'm here to talk about a children's card board game. It's not serious business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    It's D&D: not having brains is arguably an advantage. It doesn't have to affect intelligence, but it does immunize you to one of the most unavoidable instant-death attacks there is.
    Also yeah, this is also a consideration. There are few things as satisfying as yelling "Eat THIS!" and headbutting an illithid in the teeth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coretron03 View Post
    So when the Ancient Egyptians removed corpses brains, they were optimising them for the afterlife?
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    Yes, the practice dates back to the Pharaoh Munchkinhotep I.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I'd call that sig-worthy.
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    This exchange is the kind of thing that gives me a reason to stay on this site.
    Silliness like this just warms my lack of discernible anatomy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    This thread, Questions that can't be answered... Answered by RAW by No brains, is Epic.
    Quote Originally Posted by illyahr View Post
    That is so stupid it's hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    ...I've clearly been playing D&D for too long, because that made a demented kind of sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by that_one_kobold View Post
    And this is why I love D&D

  18. - Top - End - #888
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coretron03 View Post
    So when the Ancient Egyptians removed corpses brains, they were optimising them for the afterlife?
    Has anybody asked to sig this yet? Because I would really like to.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

    Extended signature!

  19. - Top - End - #889
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Has anybody asked to sig this yet? Because I would really like to.
    Nobody has asked yet, GreatWyrmGold just said it was sig worthy. I'd be honoured if you were to Sig it though, so go right ahead!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    Therefore, you just need a taller statue -- or a sufficiently high pedestal for your statue, if you're a cheese-weasel -- to permanently kill any god in 2e.

  20. - Top - End - #890
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coretron03 View Post
    So when the Ancient Egyptians removed corpses brains, they were optimising them for the afterlife?
    As the risk of being boring, that's exactly what they were doing (just not with the brains).

  21. - Top - End - #891
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I think the brain-removal thing was just them getting rid of some useless crap that was tricky to preserve, and that they didn't want rotting inside their pharaoh's head. There are probably other organs they did that with, but we don't remember them because later scientific advancements didn't reveal them to be critical to bodily function. Nobody's going to be like, "Did you know that the ancient Egyptians just threw away the spleen because they thought the heart filtered blood?"
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
    Quotes, more

    Negative LA Assignment Thread
    The Tale of Demman, Second King of Ireland, a CKII AAR, won a WritAAR of the Week award. Winner of Villainous Competition 8
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  22. - Top - End - #892
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I think the brain-removal thing was just them getting rid of some useless crap that was tricky to preserve, and that they didn't want rotting inside their pharaoh's head. There are probably other organs they did that with, but we don't remember them because later scientific advancements didn't reveal them to be critical to bodily function. Nobody's going to be like, "Did you know that the ancient Egyptians just threw away the spleen because they thought the heart filtered blood?"
    You know, you're probably right. But, I can't really conjure up the will to think about it, because my mind is currently busy wondering about something else:
    Quote Originally Posted by No brains View Post
    Silliness like this just warms my lack of discernible anatomy.
    See that? I don't see how you can be intellectualizing about ancient Egyptian burial practices when you ought to be busy wondering if No brains is an ooze. I mean, think about it: Iit's already been at least, like... a bunch of rounds since his last post, and since hardness offers no protection against acid damage, for all we know, his keyboard has already been completely eaten away, and we'll never hear from him again.

    Our only hope is that he's an ochre jelly, and that his keyboard is not made of flesh.

    Fingers crossed.
    Last edited by Blue Jay; 2017-11-28 at 11:05 AM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    I'm sure he's found a solution. Non-humanoids in the modern world have a lot more options than we did back in the day; things aren't perfect, by any means, but they're improving.
    I'm the GWG from Bay12 and a bunch of other places.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
    Quotes, more

    Negative LA Assignment Thread
    The Tale of Demman, Second King of Ireland, a CKII AAR, won a WritAAR of the Week award. Winner of Villainous Competition 8
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Says the dragon who can assume humanoid form and even have bipedal children. #invisibledisability

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    Says the dragon who can assume humanoid form and even have bipedal children. #invisibledisability
    In our modern society, a dragon should not have to conform to humanoid body-types just to use basic goods.

  26. - Top - End - #896
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Dragons live for over a dozen centuries and far exceed humanoids in nearly any conceivable category. I'm sure they'll manage.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    In our modern society, a dragon should not have to conform to humanoid body-types just to use basic goods.
    I hate it when I get called insensitive for using a dragon's ring as a hula-hoop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    There's a reason why we bap your nose, not crucify you, for thread necromancy.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    I hate it when I get called insensitive for using a dragon's ring as a hula-hoop.
    I'm more impressed you can do that at all. How much would a hula-hoop made of pure gold, silver, or platinum weigh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    All Roads Lead to Gnome.

    I for one support the Gnoman Empire.
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    E6 Iron Chef XXI Shared Second Place: The Shadow's Hand


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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    I hate it when I get called insensitive for using a dragon's ring as a hula-hoop.
    Roll for ana-- wait, wrong game.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    I'm more impressed you can do that at all. How much would a hula-hoop made of pure gold, silver, or platinum weigh?
    Hula hoops are typically hollow, so if it's very thin, not much at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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