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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default PF - Doppelmancer Ideas

    Have been invited to a new PF game at level 10 and the below spells, templates, and creatures are what I've been toying with using as the theme for a new character or two.

    Have also been contemplating a limiter for Simulacrum, Trompe L'oeil, and Alter Ego. That the creature to be copied must instead be the 'character' to be copied. That the subject must be present for the duration of creation and copies can only be made of specific individuals inn the gameworld instead of just generic statblocks. It admittedly isn't too great of a hoop to jump through but I think it could act as a limiter as well as open up some good roleplaying opportunities.

    I'm sure I am overthinking/overcomplicating things. Is there a more straightforward method to field (potentially) armies of copies of specific individuals?

    Spoiler: Doppelmancer Options
    Show

    Alter Ego: Creates a possibly uncontrolled, normally uncreatable construct version of a 3 Int creature at the cost of (CR+1)*(CR+1)*250gp plus cost of body.
    Awaken Construct: Grants unintelligent construct an Int score and free will at the cost of 2,000gp per HD.
    Simulacrum: Creates a half HD version of a creature whose HD are no more than twice your CL at the cost of 500gp per HD of the simulacrum. (Bonus: Some Simulacrum Q&A.)
    Trompe L'oeil: Creates a painting pseudo-phylactery for the construct-pseudo-lich of an intelligent creature that retains its superpowers at the cost of 500gp per HD plus cost of painting OR (CR+1)*(CR+1)*250gp plus cost of body.
    Waxwork Creature: Creates an unintelligent or sentient construct wax sculpture of a non-construct creature that loses its superpowers at the cost of 500gp per HD plus cost of wax OR (CR+1)*(CR+1)*250gp plus cost of body where the CRs depend on the waxwork's HD.

    These Constructs are too weak for simulacrumization and unintelligent so Trompe L'oeil could only be modeled after awakened versions (if that works).
    Angelic Guardian
    Emerald Automaton
    Poppet, Small
    Poppet, Tiny
    Tattoo Guardian

    These unintelligent creatures have mundane usefulness that is intrinsic to their shape and not dependent on their HD so simulacrum of them are just as useful as the original.
    Adamantine Golem
    Animated Object, Large Clockwork Shop
    Animated Object, Huge Clockwork Shop
    Behemoth Golem
    Gunpowder Ooze

    These creatures are already intelligent and so ripe for having Trompe L'oeil modeled after them.
    Shell Sentinel
    Trompe L'oeil Doppelganger
    Trompe L'oeil Shadow Doppelganger
    Living Cave Painting
    Mask Golem
    Shield Guardian Mask Golem
    Trompe L'oeil Mimic
    Trompe L'oeil Giant Mimic


    Last edited by unseenmage; 2017-08-03 at 12:33 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: PF - Doppelmancer Ideas

    Marvelous Pigments presents an interesting doppelmancy option. One imagines painting dummies or statues in the likeness of one's enemies or allies that can later be illusioned or even animated.

    Also makes me wonder which Constructs can have their nonmagical unanimated bodies crafted purely from Marvelous Pigments? If the GM considers such objects to be "objects of value" that are replaced with "inexpensive materials" then this is a no-go from the get-go. Additionally, certain materials are explicitly disallowed by the item itself including "precious metals, gems, jewelry, ivory" with the addition of "and so on" theoretically including any weapon and armor special materials. Also, other materials are explicitly allowed by the item including "tin, lead, glass, brass, bone".

    Based on the examples given I am going to go by the assumption that "objects of value" refers to objects whose substance is valuable and not objects whose complexity or skill to create is valuable. Meaning the item should be able to create masterwork equipment, alchemical items, mundane traps, clockwork components, and art objects so long as the component parts aren't made of disallowed materials and the value of the depicted object is 2,000gp or less.
    Conversely to painting masterwork items painting broken items would seem to be allowable as well. Which could open up the gp restriction some, but not much. (As per the Broken condition, “Items with the broken condition, regardless of type, are worth 75% of their normal value.” This can be assumed to be true for the corpses of constructs as well.)
    Will also be assuming that negative space cannot be created because of the simple logic of that statement. So no pits or replacing wall space with a doorway or cheap passwall effects.


    Much like Fabricate, this item works on a volume limitation for which it is useful to know the smallest volume a given unanimated construct body can occupy. For that I refer to the squeezing rules, they being the best example of how small a given creature of a given size can functionally be.
    Spoiler: On Fabricate-ing Construct Bodies
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by unseenmage View Post
    So using Fabricate to craft the body of a construct presents an issue; How much volume does a creature's body occupy?
    For the longest time I've just used its combat space but that's inaccurate to the point of absurdity, especially with hollow creatures (an animated cage or room or hollowed out corpse).

    Today it hit me, why not use the creature's combat space when it's Squeezed into a smaller space?
    We have the Squeezing movement rules to limit how small a space a creature of a given size can occupy; why not employ them?

    So, when using the Fabricate spell, or Marvelous Pigments magic item when applicable, to craft a constructs body the necessary volume is 2 sizes smaller than the resultant construct because that's how little space the Squeezing rules say a body of that size can possibly occupy. (Eg. a large body could be compressed into a small creatures space.)


    Using the squeezing idea it looks like the Pigments can make up to one squeezed Gargantuan construct body, 2 Huge, 8 large, 64 Small or Medium, or 8,000 fine or diminutive squeezed construct bodies. Rare is the Gargantuan construct body or Downtime Building that costs 2,000gp or less so even if we can cheese something that big out of the Pigment's volume restrictions it is unlikely
    to ultimately be that useful. Best I can imagine is a 2,000gp piece of statuary or a Gargantuan skeleton (since bone is explicitly allowed) or gargantuan tree (many plants are mundane items and foodstuffs would seem to set precedent for plant matter at the least) that can be animated at a later date.

    Alter Ego unanimated Construct bodies
    As Alter Ego doesn't have creation information see the below 'Priced by CR unanimated Construct bodies'.

    Animated Object Building unanimated Construct bodies
    Thanks to this list of Downtime Buildings organized by their Animated Object sizes we can also determine how many buildings the Pigments can create if said buildings were 'squeezed' into a smaller space; they'll be painted either as an inert animated object squeezed into a smaller space or as an unsassembled pile of materials. They should occupy the same space regardless. Furnishings or a single mundane trap will occupy volume as a creature of the room or building they're augmenting.
    A Gargantuan Animated Object can be made from a room or building of up to 64 squares. Using the Pigments to make a Gargantuan squeezed building will use up the Pigments volume limitation completely.
    Alchemist (building) | 41–94 squares | 1,940gp
    Brewery (building) | 36–89 squares | 1,450gp
    Granary (building) | 40–80 squares | 1,200gp
    Spending 4,000gp to buy Pigments and spending 10 minutes painting to get 2,000gp building, even a Gargantuan one, would seem to be a bit of a waste. Especially when that building is unfurnished, unstaffed, and not even trapped. I am looking forward to trying to find an opportunity where it would be helpful in-game though!

    Priced by CR unanimated Construct bodies
    Using the Building and Modifying Constructs info from Ultimate Magic we can, with GM permission, price Constructs by their CR instead of their, often seemingly random, listed prices. Additionally, by creating a " new " Construct identical to an existing Construct that lacks a price for creation we can effectively use this method to provide prices for unpriced Constructs.

    Using the below guidelines we find that the most expensive unanimated Construct body we can paint with the Pigments is up to CR 6.

    These are our generic Construct Creation rules as compiled from the Building and Modifying Constructs section of the PRD.
    Spoiler: Pricing Constructs By CR
    Show

    Price: CR * CR * 500gp
    Cost to Create: ˝ price plus cost of body
    Cost of Body: Price * 0.1 (for a body that costs 10% base price)
    (As per the Broken condition, “Items with the broken condition, regardless of type, are worth 75% of their normal value.” This can be assumed to be true for the corpses of constructs as well.)
    Time to Create Body: depends on if using the normal laborious crafting rules or the Alternate Crafting Rules
    Skill to Create Body: Spellcraft or other appropriate skill; DC equals 5 + CL (usually CL 5 for Craft Construct; or min CL for highest level spell listed in creature entry); plus 5 for each missing prerequisite (all spells and CL for an alchemist); Can ‘Take 10’ but cannot ‘Take 20’; Failing this check means that the item (construct) does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (construct).
    Prerequisite spells: Every spell mentioned in the statblock usually. Sometimes omitting spell lists for spellcasting creatures as the sheer volume of spells tends to make them uncraftable otherwise.
    Days to Create: 1 day per 1,000gp in price (round up).


    Trompe L'oeil unanimated Construct bodies and paintings
    A medium Trompe L'oeil canvas is 2,000gp so that exhausts our per item limit as per the Pigments. Small are 1,000gp and smaller are 500gp each.
    Assuming we can paint broken objects to reduce the price of what we're painting and Mending it later we still cannot get access to the large Trompe L'oeil canvas at 3,000gp normal and 2,250gp broken.
    Assuming that the paintings that act as the body to be animated for a Trompe L'oeil can be rolled or folded to effectively squeeze them into a smaller space we can use our squeezing solution above to get more volume of Trompe L'oeil than normally possible.

    Waxwork Creature unanimated Construct bodies
    if one can find a price for the wax required for a Waxwork Creature then one assumes we could paint the unanimated bodies. As is we're either painting Art Object sculptures that are wax or using the 'Price By CR' guidelines above to price the body.

    Edit:
    Lastly, some mundane items that are useful to M. Pigment or to Animate Object at.
    Bone Paste
    Key-Wound Rattler
    Lifting Net Trap
    Magnetized Ore
    Mnemonic Crystals
    Sentry Mannequin
    Sky Mine
    Wind Platform
    And other items from this post/thread.
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2017-08-09 at 10:59 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: PF - Doppelmancer Ideas

    Just a few Doppelmancy Constructs priced using the 'Price by CR' guidelines from the Building and Modifying Constructs section of the PRD.

    Spoiler: Some Doppelmancy Constructs
    Show

    Medium Animated Object Statue (room) or Monument (building)
    (Rooms: 1 Statue)
    Medium; 3 HD, CR 3
    CP 2: Additional Movement (burrow), Stone (hardness 8)
    Price: 2,000 gp
    Cost to Create: 1,000 gp
    Cost of Body: 200 gp
    Skill to Create Body: Spellcraft or Craft (sculpture) DC 16 (DC 21 max)
    Prerequisite spells: animate objects
    Days to Create: 2 days
    (crafted to resemble party members or enemies)

    Large Animated Object Traveling Museum (building)
    (Rooms: 1 Reliquary, 1 Shack, 1 Tollbooth, 1 Trophy Room)
    Large; 4 HD, CR 5
    CP 3: Additional Movement (fly), Faster (fly), Improved Attack (melee)
    Price: 12,500 gp
    Cost to Create: 6,250 gp
    Cost of Body: 1,250 gp
    Skill to Create Body: Spellcraft DC 16 (DC 21 max)
    Prerequisite spells: animate objects
    Days to Create: 13 days
    (Craft Painting)

    Huge Animated Object Exotic Artisan (building)
    (Rooms: 1 Artisan’s Workshop, 1 Bedroom, 1 Kitchen, 1 Lavatory, 1 Sitting Room, 1 Storage, 1 Storefront)
    Huge; 7 HD, CR 7
    CP 4: Additional Movement (fly), Faster (fly), Trample
    Price: 24,500 gp
    Cost to Create: 12,250 gp
    Cost of Body: 2,450 gp
    Skill to Create Body: Spellcraft DC 16 (DC 21 max)
    Prerequisite spells: animate objects
    Days to Create: 25 days
    (Craft Painting)

    Gargantuan Animated Object Museum (building)
    (Rooms: 1 Guard Post, 1 Office, 1 Reliquary, 2 Statues, 2 Storages, 1 Storefront, 2 Trophy Rooms, 1 Vault)
    Gargantuan; 10 HD, CR 9
    CP 5: Additional Attack, Additional Movement (fly), Faster (fly), Faster (base), Improved Attack
    Price: 40,500 gp
    Cost to Create: 20,250 gp
    Cost of Body: 4,050 gp
    Skill to Create Body: Spellcraft DC 16 (DC 21 max)
    Prerequisite spells: animate objects
    Days to Create: 41 days
    (housing for the Trompe L'oeil)

    Simulacrum Awakened Trompe L'oeil Gunpowder Ooze
    Large; 10 HD, CR 7?
    Scroll 7,275 gp; CL 13; CL check DC 14
    (Will want at least two of these for cumulative explosions)

    Simulacrum Awakened Trompe L'oeil Behemoth Golem
    Large; 11 HD, CR 9?
    Scroll 7,775 gp; CL 13; CL check DC 14

    Trompe L'oeil Doppelganger
    Medium; 4 HD, CR 4
    Price: 8,000 gp
    Cost to Create: 4,000 gp
    Cost of Body: 800 gp
    Skill to Create Body: Spellcraft or Craft (painting) DC 16 (DC 31 max)
    Prerequisite spells: alter self, animate objects, detect thoughts, enter image, polymorph
    Days to Create: 8 days

    Trompe L'oeil Shadow Doppelganger
    Medium; 4 HD, CR 5
    Price: 12,500 gp
    Cost to Create: 6,250 gp
    Cost of Body: 1,250 gp
    Skill to Create Body: Spellcraft or Craft (painting) DC 16 (DC 31 max)
    Prerequisite spells: alter self, animate objects, detect thoughts, enter image, polymorph
    Days to Create: 13 days

    Trompe L'oeil Mimic
    Medium; 7 HD, CR 5
    Price: 12,500 gp
    Cost to Create: 6,250 gp
    Cost of Body: 1,250 gp
    Skill to Create Body: Spellcraft or Craft (painting) DC 16 (DC 26 max)
    Prerequisite spells: animate objects, enter image
    Days to Create: 13 days

    Trompe L'oeil Giant Mimic
    Large; 7 HD, CR 6
    Price: 18,000 gp
    Cost to Create: 9,000 gp
    Cost of Body: 1,800 gp
    Skill to Create Body: Spellcraft or Craft (painting) DC 16 (DC 26 max)
    Prerequisite spells: animate objects, enter image
    Days to Create: 18 days

    Trompe L'oeil Awakened Tattoo Guardian
    Medium; 4 HD, CR 4
    Price: 8,000 gp
    Cost to Create: 4,000 gp
    Cost of Body: 800 gp
    Skill to Create Body: Spellcraft or Craft (painting) DC 18 (DC 48 max)
    Prerequisite spells: animate objects, awaken construct, fly, geas/quest, parchment swarm, shield other
    Days to Create: 8 days

    Trompe L'oeil Living Cave Painting
    Medium; 6 HD, CR 5
    Price: 12,500 gp
    Cost to Create: 6,250 gp
    Cost of Body: 1,250 gp
    Skill to Create Body: Spellcraft or Craft (painting) DC 16 (DC 41 max)
    Prerequisite spells: animate objects, enter image, erase, shadow conjuration, summon nature’s ally III
    Days to Create: 13 days

    Trompe L'oeil Giant Living Cave Painting
    Large; 6 HD, CR 6
    Price: 18,000 gp
    Cost to Create: 9,000 gp
    Cost of Body: 1,800 gp
    Skill to Create Body: Spellcraft or Craft (painting) DC 16 (DC 41 max)
    Prerequisite spells: animate objects, enter image, erase, shadow conjuration, summon nature’s ally III
    Days to Create: 13 days
    (am imagining it hiding behind trompe l'oeil paintings or displayed in the gallery as a guardian)
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2017-08-07 at 08:44 PM.

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    Default Re: PF - Doppelmancer Ideas

    Am considering homebrewing a Free Simulacrum spell which would grant a Simulacrum free will and remove the 'cannot become more powerful' limiter. Basically the Simulacrum only version of Awaken Construct and its ilk.

    Simulacrum Notes:
    James Jacobs #1
    James Jacobs #2
    James Jacobs #3
    Uses for Simulacrum
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2017-08-04 at 11:04 AM.

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    Default Re: PF - Doppelmancer Ideas

    Some Ideas
    Using Lesser Simulacrum can make mindless constructs, like Animated Objects, which just sit there unless attacked. Perhaps stone blocks exactly large enough to block a hallway or statues of the party or even mundane traps could be created this way.

    Use Apparent Master to control Lesser Simulacrum constructs.


    Using the False Focus feat and the tattoo holy symbol can make up to 2 HD Lesser Simulacrum without paying the powdered ruby.


    Use Lesser Simulacrum to make 2 HD versions of yourself which are free willed but likely helpful.

    Use Book of Night Without Moon to steal shadows of Lesser Simulacrum potentially doubling minions.

    Currently allows for 5 Lesser Simulacrums for 10 hours and 5 Shadows for 1 hour.
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2017-08-08 at 07:52 AM.

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    Default Re: PF - Doppelmancer Ideas

    The Book of Night Without Moon makes illusory duplicates of creatures whose shadows are trapped in the book.
    Some clarifications...
    The trapped shadows of creatures slain after their shadow was trapped remain until used.
    Shadow creatures created by the book which are unintelligent gain the ability to follow complex commands as though they were intelligent.


    On Simulacrum,
    Could one make a Simulacrum of a lower HD version of an existing character?
    Could the spellcaster make a Simulacrum of their best friend from when they were children? When they were first level rookies?
    Could a Simulacrum be made of the spellcaster's friend before they were level drained? Before they died?
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2017-08-12 at 04:30 PM.

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    Default Re: PF - Doppelmancer Ideas

    Theoretically one could make Simulacrum or Lesser Simulacrum of mundane mechanical traps. Traps that require architecture would require instead making a downtime room/building with the trapped feature. Also, poisons, diseases, and living separate components are likely off limits.

    With the above limitations our options are small, nut interesting nonetheless.

    Alternatively we could be using the False Focus feat to make small animated object Lesser Simulacrum for free. Which limits our options even further.

    Potential mechanical traps to make Lesser Simulacrum small Animated Objects of...
    Barbed Wire CR 4
    Javelin Trap CR 2
    Wall Scythe Trap CR 4
    ...there are even a couple of Hazards that could be priced up as custom traps...
    Magnetized Ore CR 2
    Mnemonic Crystals CR 3
    ...and a list of trap like mundane items...
    Balloon Trap
    Bear Trap
    Black Powder
    Buoyant Balloon
    Camouflage Blanket
    Key Wound Rattler
    Oil
    Sentry Mannequin
    ...and an alchemical item or two for good measure...
    Tanglefoot Bundle

    This does beg the question; can one conjure a preset trap into being? A prewound clockwork? A loaded crossbow?
    Can one conjure a bucket of fluid above a doorway? An open Bear Trap as opposed to a closed one?
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2017-08-09 at 11:27 PM.

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