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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    PirateGuy

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    tongue Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    That's funny... My rpg group name is The Order Of Look-Out-Roy-The-Vampire'S-Not-Really-Durkon!

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    LE is quite possible since she's caught in a very bad bet and is working within the rules of it instead of cheating.
    That's mainly because the other Gods will retaliate in kind if she breaks the rules and, with her lesser power base, she'd pretty surely lose. Even a Chaotic character can tell when the benefits of following the law outweigh the negatives and this is one such case.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    That's mainly because the other Gods will retaliate in kind if she breaks the rules and, with her lesser power base, she'd pretty surely lose. Even a Chaotic character can tell when the benefits of following the law outweigh the negatives and this is one such case.
    yeah, there's a massive difference between sticking to the rules because you feel you should or because you fear the consequences if you do

    I would peg hel as NE

    the f-HPOH is clearly LE, he enjoys screwing people over while simultaniously sticking within the rules too much to be anything else

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    That's mainly because the other Gods will retaliate in kind if she breaks the rules and, with her lesser power base, she'd pretty surely lose. Even a Chaotic character can tell when the benefits of following the law outweigh the negatives and this is one such case.
    Yeah, even Loki, certified CE, pushed for a 'No-Backsies' rule for the moots, showing that laws and rules aren't Kryptonite to chaotics.
    Even the wind will know agony.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a_flemish_guy View Post
    yeah, there's a massive difference between sticking to the rules because you feel you should or because you fear the consequences if you do

    I would peg hel as NE
    On the other hand, Loki targeted Hel for a reason. I get the same feeling about the "bet" as I get from RC's three Xykon's ruse: that Loki crafted the bet knowing that Hel would instinctively believe that the implied rule ("the dwarves' won't know about the heroic death loophole") would be respected, just as RC expected the Paladins to believe the implied rule "One of the three is Xykon".

    In other words, it looks like a bet, but it is not: it was a con. A con works best when the target is Legal.

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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    This may be just wishful thinking, but me thinks Durkon may have found a way to manipulate Durkula. Bravo Durkon!

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    This may be just wishful thinking, but me thinks Durkon may have found a way to manipulate Durkula. Bravo Durkon!
    I mean it's been implied in the last couple comics with them soooo there's still hope!

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PeglegJim View Post
    I mean it's been implied in the last couple comics with them soooo there's still hope!
    Heh. This reminds me of something from the last book.

    The current page showed that Durkula is starting to be on guard against Durkon. He's ready to believe that Durkon is lying or omitting the truth at any moment.

    What do you do when someone is completely invested in the idea you're trying to lie?

    Double bluff.
    Even the wind will know agony.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    On the other hand, Loki targeted Hel for a reason. I get the same feeling about the "bet" as I get from RC's three Xykon's ruse: that Loki crafted the bet knowing that Hel would instinctively believe that the implied rule ("the dwarves' won't know about the heroic death loophole") would be respected, just as RC expected the Paladins to believe the implied rule "One of the three is Xykon".

    In other words, it looks like a bet, but it is not: it was a con. A con works best when the target is Legal.

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  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chei View Post
    Heh. This reminds me of something from the last book.

    The current page showed that Durkula is starting to be on guard against Durkon. He's ready to believe that Durkon is lying or omitting the truth at any moment.

    What do you do when someone is completely invested in the idea you're trying to lie?

    Double bluff.
    Reverse psychology.

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Durkon cannot show false memories, but the vampire (Greg?) is influenced by them.
    The first memories Greg absorbed were the "lowest, darkest moments of the host's life", where it was clear that Durkon had unresolved resentment toward those that exiled him. But now Greg is learning the moments where Durkon is happy with his family and has real affection for them.
    Greg even acknowledged that a different vampire could have rejected Hel's plans from the start (same comic as the above link, last line), so I think it is possible that Greg could rebel against Durkon, too.
    I think that the big reveal will not be a monster or an ambush, but Durkon's family. If Greg ever tries to attack Durkon's Mom, it may be enough for the real Durkon to regain control.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by elros View Post
    I think that the big reveal will not be a monster or an ambush, but Durkon's family. If Greg ever tries to attack Durkon's Mom, it may be enough for the real Durkon to regain control.
    I doubt it. I think Durkon would believe he was putting his mom at too much risk. Not only would he be gambling on being able to take control, but he'd also be gambling on being able to handle the three other vampires immediately afterwards.
    Last edited by xroads; 2017-08-04 at 02:28 PM. Reason: Fixed grammar.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by elros View Post
    Durkon cannot show false memories, but the vampire (Greg?) is influenced by them.
    The first memories Greg absorbed were the "lowest, darkest moments of the host's life", where it was clear that Durkon had unresolved resentment toward those that exiled him. But now Greg is learning the moments where Durkon is happy with his family and has real affection for them.
    Greg even acknowledged that a different vampire could have rejected Hel's plans from the start (same comic as the above link, last line), so I think it is possible that Greg could rebel against Durkon, too.
    I think that the big reveal will not be a monster or an ambush, but Durkon's family. If Greg ever tries to attack Durkon's Mom, it may be enough for the real Durkon to regain control.
    I'd be very surprised if that happened, given that Malack had no qualms about drinking his brothers. I could see Durkon's mom playing a role though, such as distracting him during a pivotal moment as he's battling Roy.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Love the view of Durkon's family. A lot of really interesting people and it fleshes out Durkon to be something more than a grumpy healbot, a "support beam", in the HPOH's words.

    Durkon is playing the same game he did with Miko back in Azure City -- while he will not lie he is a master of telling less than the full truth. In a way, his lawful upbringing is good practice for him. He can't lie to the vampire, but that's okay because he hasn't been able to lie his whole life. He's a master at misleading through omitted information, I think.

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  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chei View Post
    Unfortunately, it seems like the positivity itself doesn't affect the vampire. However, the vampire learns less from positive memories, it seems, because he doesn't understand positive relationships very well. Durkon learned much earlier in the book that the vampire is not guaranteed to learn what Durkon himself learned from his own memories. He's been slowly using that to his advantage.
    Agreed. Un*Durkon would, if he could, just "Yarf"
    Last edited by White Magic; 2017-08-04 at 05:54 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cap_Hardman View Post
    That's funny... My rpg group name is The Order Of Look-Out-Roy-The-Vampire'S-Not-Really-Durkon!
    Yeah, and mine had a part of a campaign where the High Priest of Hel got stuck outside of the godsmoot because of a crumbled up rock
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  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by White Magic View Post
    Agreed. Un*Durkon would, if he could, just "Yarf"
    Just realized that Baby Durkon has a few strands of hair on his chin. Dwarf boys really grow their beards fast.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    On the other hand, Loki targeted Hel for a reason. I get the same feeling about the "bet" as I get from RC's three Xykon's ruse: that Loki crafted the bet knowing that Hel would instinctively believe that the implied rule ("the dwarves' won't know about the heroic death loophole") would be respected, just as RC expected the Paladins to believe the implied rule "One of the three is Xykon".

    In other words, it looks like a bet, but it is not: it was a con. A con works best when the target is Legal.

    Grey Wolf
    I don't think hel instinctively believed there to be such a rule but that she was too blinded by the price on offer to notice that loophole

    hel strikes me as being quite greedy and arrogant which already really makes her the perfect target for a con, the best targets are those who think they're smarter then you

  19. - Top - End - #139
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a_flemish_guy View Post
    I don't think hel instinctively believed there to be such a rule but that she was too blinded by the price on offer to notice that loophole

    hel strikes me as being quite greedy and arrogant which already really makes her the perfect target for a con, the best targets are those who think they're smarter then you
    Indeed. Thinking you're too smart to fall for a con is one of the easiest ways TO fall for a con. That said, even if someone IS smart, that has little to do with how easy they are to con. That all depends on how many emotions and desires of theirs can be exploited and played on. In Hel's case. it was Greed, but almost every emotion can be exploited in one way or another. You just need the right message...Sorry for the tangent. I've read up on how con artists work and it's chilling stuff.

  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Avianmosquito View Post
    Pretty sure the undead can't get drunk.
    Nah, I'm sure they can, but they probably taste terrible and are less satisfying than a living being getting drunk.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Indeed. Thinking you're too smart to fall for a con is one of the easiest ways TO fall for a con. That said, even if someone IS smart, that has little to do with how easy they are to con. That all depends on how many emotions and desires of theirs can be exploited and played on. In Hel's case. it was Greed, but almost every emotion can be exploited in one way or another. You just need the right message...Sorry for the tangent. I've read up on how con artists work and it's chilling stuff.
    Actually, the best cons are the ones where the victim cons themself or are based on laziness of the victims (See: Frank Abagnale's many cons)

  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoelessgdowar View Post
    Actually, the best cons are the ones where the victim cons themself or are based on laziness of the victims (See: Frank Abagnale's many cons)
    OK, I have to take issue with this. I don't think his cons were based on people being lazy, rather than people simply believing what they were presented with. And Abagnale (Jr., btw) was a freaking master of knowing what people would expect and presenting that to them For instance, he once got a security officer's uniform, went to a bank's night deposit box, hung an "out of order" sign on it, and spent the night getting envelopes of cash from people who came up, saw the box ostensibly out of order, saw the night guard put there to make sure people could still make night deposits, and didn't give it a second thought. Because we all trust strangers with a lot more of our information than any of us really care to think about.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Avianmosquito View Post
    Pretty sure the undead can't get drunk.
    No wonder they're so bitter then. What's a dwarf of any kind if it can't get drunk?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    And I love the image of Elan doing math in the background.
    "I'm done Roy! What do you think?"
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    I have to wonder, actually. If vampires are incapable of growth or connecting the dots like this, then would Greg have suspected anything if Durkon actually somehow gave him false information like that?

    Whatever the case, Durkon is definitely trying some misdirection now, and it's fantastic. It makes me wonder if he'll learn some new tactical approach for battles if he ever gets revived. Regardless, I still happy that he's back in "the game" in his own way.

  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Everything Durkon has shown to Durkula/HPOH/Gr*g has been a false memory because it's always been in third person. And no, OOTS characters do not see from the perspective of the fourth wall:
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    Everything Durkon has shown to Durkula/HPOH/Gr*g has been a false memory because it's always been in third person. And no, OOTS characters do not see from the perspective of the fourth wall:
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html
    I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the third-person perspective in literally every memory ever shown in the comic is to make following the memory easier for readers, rather than evidence the memory is false or fabricated. Unless you're just being pedantic about it technically not being what was experienced, in which case carry on
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the third-person perspective in literally every memory ever shown in the comic is to make following the memory easier for readers, rather than evidence the memory is false or fabricated. Unless you're just being pedantic about it technically not being what was experienced, in which case carry on
    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Gift Jeraff was not being entirely serious when he said that.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Sanity View Post
    I get the feeling Durkon's vampire is gonna need to drink something stronger than blood, at this rate.
    Dwarven blood? I hear it's at least 20-proof even when they're sober.


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    If we're going outside the full casters, we might as well skip straight to rangers and paladins (who need every ability score except for Intelligence and Charisma/Dexterity, and only get 4th-level spells).


    Quote Originally Posted by Psychronia View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    Everything Durkon has shown to Durkula/HPOH/Gr*g has been a false memory because it's always been in third person.
    All memories are false memories, to one extent or another. That's just how the brain works. The question is, can Durkon show things as he doesn't remember them? And the answer is "No".


    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Gift Jeraff was not being entirely serious when he said that.
    If you're citing sources, you're probably serious.
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  27. - Top - End - #147
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    All memories are false memories, to one extent or another. That's just how the brain works. The question is, can Durkon show things as he doesn't remember them? And the answer is "No".
    Durkon's soul is providing the memories, not his brain.
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    If we're going outside the full casters, we might as well skip straight to rangers and paladins (who need every ability score except for Intelligence and Charisma/Dexterity, and only get 4th-level spells).
    Paladins and Rangers don't have Spellcraft as class skills, so they'd need 24 cross-class skill ranks for Epic Spellcasting, as well.
    Even the wind will know agony.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    If we're going outside the full casters, we might as well skip straight to rangers and paladins (who need every ability score except for Intelligence and Charisma/Dexterity, and only get 4th-level spells).
    Hm. I suppose there may be definitions for "full caster" other than "has a caster level equal to their class level".
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    Default Re: OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    If you're citing sources, you're probably serious.
    False. See here.
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