Tob?

[Generic PC]

So. I know, USE THE SEARCH BUTTON!! right? my computer will not load search unless i hit it more than once, in which case i get the message Cannot use search more than once every 300 seconds. i do not know why this is, but i have tried it a few times. so, My question. Tome Of Battle is like The book everyone says you should see when someone goes " My _____ (Melee Class) Is doing really bad against monsters..." etc. So, i recently borrow a copy from my friend to see it lived up to its reputation. I didn't understand it. to point out something, take for instance that Many people think Monks Suck. one main complaint is 3/4 BAB advancement. The TOB alternative on these boards is an Unarmed Swordsage, but said Swordsage has a 3/4 BAB too. And, as far as i can see, still has MAD. (Wis/Dex/Str/Con) So, Why is TOB the best Splat since (Insert really good splat here...) Also, I am currently trying to build a Swordsage and Warblade, so any help with that?

[Xefas]

Monks are poor because not only do they suffer from MAD and have poor BAB progression, but their abilities suck too bad to make up for this.

Swordsages, on the other hand, get maneuvers, which, while not as good as spellcasting, are endlessly better (not to mention, more fun, in my opinion) than the Monk's overall lame class features.

And, what exactly do you need help with?

[Generic PC]

Choosing Maneuvers, Stances, Weapons/Armour/Other Gear. They will be level 9, if it is needed.Both are using the custom made stat Array of 14, 12, 14, 18, 13, 17. (the party had a TPK, but we want to continue, and said friend is the dm. needless to say he wants to use it. the other players are Cleric 9 (wanting Contemplative), Wizard(wanting Loremaster or Archmage, hasnt Decided), Rogue(just rogue).) The party is rather optimized, but has enough common sense that the Cleric wont be Uber Tank, and the Wizard does have some Direct Damage. The Warblade is a cohort via Backstory for my Swordsage because the DM plays sometimes, and last time we would have to introduce new characters because he kept losing the old ones. it got annoying, so i am making this one so we can always have mine as a back up. Houserules are rather varied, so ask if something comes up, and i will check.

EDIT: oh, They would both be preferred without LA, as there is no Buyoff.

[Xefas]

Well, as far as gear goes, I think one would equip them just like any other martial character. There are not, to my knowledge, any special items that work better for people with maneuvers (i.e. nothing like Metamagic Rods are for magic). Even the martial scripts seem (to me) to be rather useless to someone who already knows maneuvers.

For maneuver choice, I've only ever played a Crusader before, so I can't give too much advice for Swordsage/Warblade, but I can say I found Stone Dragon to be a very rewarding discipline, which all three classes can take. Stone Bones, Bonecrusher, and Roots of the Mountain are all very entertaining at the low levels, Irresistible Mountain Strike makes BBEG's weep all throughout (if your DM likes throwing single, powerful baddies at you occasionally), and Ancient Mountain Hammer is fantastic once everyone and their brother has damage reduction.

As a Warblade, if you plan to go Sword/Shield, I imagine you should pick up Pearl of Black Doubt. Nothing says discouragement quite like getting harder and harder to hit with every attack.

[Matthew]

Tome of Battle is overhyped. At levels 1-5 it won't make much difference whether you play a Fighter or a War Blade. Later on it makes a much bigger difference, primarily because of all the Manoeuvres available to these new Base Classes and the Manoeuvres really are where the guts of the system are.

[Generic PC]

But we arent at levels 1-5, we are at level 9. AND, I was a Fighter through levels 1-8, so TOB should make a difference according to you.

[Kioran]

That´s because Maneuvers are toned-down spellcasting with your weapon. You have limited uses, but effects much superior to simple attacks. It´s spellcasting light, and the flavor doesn´t necessesarily agree with everyone.

Depending on the level of optimization and splatbooks present, I have to warn against ToB on other grounds as well - ToBlers come out of the box twinked and balanced for D&D 3.87(3.5 with gratuitios amounts of power creep), so they might upset party balance if your caster refrain from cheesing it up.

[Fax Celestis]

That´s because Maneuvers are toned-down spellcasting with your weapon. You have limited uses, but effects much superior to simple attacks. It´s spellcasting light, and the flavor doesn´t necessesarily agree with everyone.

Depending on the level of optimization and splatbooks present, I have to warn against ToB on other grounds as well - ToBlers come out of the box twinked and balanced for D&D 3.87(3.5 with gratuitios amounts of power creep), so they might upset party balance if your caster refrain from cheesing it up.

Kioran, he asked for help, not opinion. He's already set on using ToB. Starting arguments about ToB's "relative power level" or whining about "optimization" is only going to piss people off.

[Generic PC]

Fax is correct. As is probably usual by now.

[Matthew]

But we arent at levels 1-5, we are at level 9. AND, I was a Fighter through levels 1-8, so TOB should make a difference according to you.

That's right, it should, though the difference still may not be too great. So, care to post the comparative builds that are giving you trouble?

[Starbuck_II]

So. I know, USE THE SEARCH BUTTON!! right?

my computer will not load search unless i hit it more than once, in which case i get the message Cannot use search more than once every 300 seconds.
I do not know why this is, but i have tried it a few times. so,


My question. Tome Of Battle is like The book everyone says you should see when someone goes " My _____ (Melee Class) Is doing really bad against monsters..." etc.
So, i recently borrow a copy from my friend to see it lived up to its reputation. I didn't understand it.

To point out something, take for instance that:
Many people think Monks Suck. one main complaint is 3/4 BAB advancement. The TOB alternative on these boards is an Unarmed Swordsage, but said Swordsage has a 3/4 BAB too.
And, as far as i can see, still has MAD. (Wis/Dex/Str/Con) So, Why is TOB the best Splat since (Insert really good splat here...) Also, I am currently trying to build a Swordsage and Warblade, so any help with that?

Monks need Wis and Dex because they can't wear armor. Swordsages can (except unarmed/unarmored variant one).

I'd just use Swordsge with Superior unarmed strike if I wanted light armored unarmed dude.

Either way, what does a monk get beyond that? Fast movement (move far) and flurry (multiple attacks when not moving).

What does swordsage get? Manuevers that work when he moves. See the synergy? That is the difference.

[Reel On, Love]

First, Kioran--what the heck? Unoptimized TOB is just fine compared to unoptimized casters. For the first, like, half the game it's fine against slightly-optimized melee types, too. What I'm about to describe is relatively impressive, sure--but it's also sure as hell no druid. (Summon a polar bear! Animal Growth! Dire Lion animal companion with +8 STR and summoned bear with +12 STR--hey, thanks, Augmented Summoning!--tear the enemy apart. On top of that YOU'RE a Dire Lion, too, and you and your companion have Greater Magic Fang and great grappling, plus you can pick a flying form or cast Air Walk, Flamestrike at range, or use Wall of Thorns or Control Winds to devastate enemies.

Anyway!

Okay, if you can't see why a Swordsage is better than a monk, You're Doing It Wrong.

The Swordsage picks up Shadow Blade and gets Dex to damage. He's also got WIS to damage on strikes of a certain school (I recommend Tiger Claw).
The Swordsage can wear light armor--even with the unarmed adaptation! Sure, he's not proficient, but MW Studded Leather and Mithral Chain Shirts have Armor Check Penalties of precisely ZERO, meaning they do absolutely nothing negative to you (you get -ACP as an AB penalty if you're not proficient with something.

At level 9, the Swordsage picks up Dancing Mongoose or Pouncing Charge, and so gets either two extra attacks or a full attack on a charge when he uses that.

Look, here's a level 9 Swordsage build, easy:

Human Swordsage, DEX>WIS>CON>INT>STR/CHA.

1 - Discipline Focus(pick Shadow Hand--free Weapon Focus with all Shadow Hand weapons, which you'll need to use for Shadow Blade). Feats: Adaptive Style, Shadow Blade; Maneuvers: Wolf Fang Strike (TC), Sudden Leap (TC), Moment of Perfect Mind (DM), Burning Blade (DW), Mighty Throw (SS), Counter Charge (SS). Stance: Child of Shadow
2 - WIS to AC in light (or no) armor. Maneuver: Stone Bones (SD). Stance: Island of Blades.
3 - Feat: Weapon Finesse; Maneuver: Rabid Wolf Strike (TC)
4 - Insightful Strike(pick Tiger Claw--WIS to damage with TC strikes). Swap out Stone Bones for Shadow Jaunt or Mountain Hammer.
5 - Maneuver: Fan the Flames. 6d6 fire damage as a 30' ranged touch attack. Stance: Assassin's Stance (2d6 sneak attack) or Dance of the Spider (Spider Climb) depending on whether you want ass-kicking or utility.
6 - Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting. Swap out, say, Mighty Throw for Mind Over Body.
7 - Maneuver: Searing Blade. Extra fire damage with your TWF.
8 - Defensive Stance(choose Shadow Hand, since that's what you'll be in all the time, for a constant +2 saves). Swap out Counter Charge for Soaring Raptor Strike or Death From Above (both TC). Take Hearing the Air stance (DM) for out of combat, since you don't get your dex-to-damage in it.
9 - Evasion. Feat: Improved TWF. Take Pouncing Charge.

At level 10, swap a maneuver out for Dancing Mongoose.

At that point, you'll have four attacks on a full attack, DEX to AB and damage, good AC (light armor, high dex, +WIS), and plenty of maneuvers.

Combat goes like this: you usually win initiative because you've been cranking DEX and you get an extra +3 (Quick to Act class feature) by level 10. You open combat by using the Pouncing Charge strike (full attack on a charge) with the Searing Blade boost. You charge, unload four attacks, all of which get +WIS to damage in addition to your usual DEX thanks to Insightful Strike(Tiger Claw), and another 2d6+10 points of fire damage each on top of that with each hit.

Next round, you move on to the next guy and use the Wolf Fang Strike (letting you get two attacks) and the Dancing Mongoose boost (+2 attacks), so you get four attacks with +WIS to damage on all of them, instead of just one like people normally get after moving.

And oh, yeah, guess what? If you're in Assassin's Stance you've been getting +2d6 sneak attack (on the first guy because you went first and he was flatfooted; on the second guy because you move into a flanking position) for extra damage... or if you were in Child of Shadow stance, you've been getting concealment, which means 20% miss chance for them, great with your already-good defenses.

(Against big boss types, you open up with Pouncing Charge + Dancing Mongoose for six attacks, and then stay in place and full attack with Searing Blade the next round; more efficient but less mobile.)

Sure, you're not really going to outdamage a barbarian with a greatsword and steroids or a regular basis. But you've got tons of other stuff going for you, and you look cooler, plus you're far more mobile and versatile, with better defenses: If someone forces a Will or Ref save on you, your saves are very high. If someone forces a Fort save on you, you use Mind Over Body as an immediate action to make a Concentration check (at least +15ish at this level) instead of using your Fort save. Child of Shadow's concealment applies to ranged touch attacks, too--and with +WIS to it and a high DEX, your touch AC is one of the best around.

In addition to this, if you've got Shadow Jaunt you can teleport 50' within line of sight as a standard action, great for out-of-combat--and then next round you recover the maneuver, and the round after that you do it again.
If you took Mountain Hammer, it gives +2d6 damage... and ignores hardness, which means that you can use it to cut through doors or solid rock or anything else. If it's thick it has tons of HP, so it might take you a while, but you can do it.


This is a typical effective Dex-based Swordsage build, too, not even hyper-optimized (that'd involve PsyWar or Fighter and Warblade dips).

[Exarch]

I've played around a little bit with the ToB so far. Mostly with Warblades...

In my experiences, Stone Dragon is an entertaining little number that allows for all sort of smack down. Unfortunately, a lot of its Stances don't let one move very much. But since you can adopt Stances as a Swift action, that's no huge problem. I'd say that Stone Dragon lends itself better to two-handed weapons.

Diamond Mind is another fun little school. Unlike Stone Dragon, Diamond Mind works quite well with Sword and Board style, since many of its abilities don't care about weapon damage (a lot use Concentration checks, mmm).

That said, I'd say that Crusaders make better tanks than War Blades (though Stone Dragon can really let you soak some damage with your x/Adam DR).

I don't have too much experience with Sword Sages, but my friends have had great fun pissing off the DM with Setting Sun. And Shadow Hand looks like it could cause some pretty good hurt on the opponent.

The thing with Martial Adepts is that they're very adaptable for whatever type of character you want. Righteous warrior? Crusader. Berserker? Warblade with Tiger Claw (I think that's the one). Pop culture Samurai? Diamond Mind or even Iron Heart. Monk? Setting Sun. Assassin? Shadow Hand.

[Rachel Lorelei]

That's rather nice, ROL... I've used a similar build myself, although I can never resist a couple of Psychic Warrior levels (you got your Swordsage in my Psychic Warrior! You got your Psychic Warrior in my Swordsage! Two great tastes that etcetera) when I have that option. Also, a pair of Bloodclaw Master levels would that build good, for better two-weapon fighting.

[Reel On, Love]

That's rather nice, ROL... I've used a similar build myself, although I can never resist a couple of Psychic Warrior levels (you got your Swordsage in my Psychic Warrior! You got your Psychic Warrior in my Swordsage! Two great tastes that etcetera) when I have that option. Also, a pair of Bloodclaw Master levels would that build good, for better two-weapon fighting.

It was a bare-bones straight Swordsage demonstration. Yeah, BCM's good--well, for two levels, then it's crap. PsyWar's tempting, but I don't like delaying new maneuver access.

[MrNexx]

I think I know why I've been grumpy about ToB... it's trying to bring anime combat into D&D. That's my least favorite part of 3.x... the anime influences. I prefer to play more traditional fantasy, instead of anime.

[Fax Celestis]

I think I know why I've been grumpy about ToB... it's trying to bring anime combat into D&D. That's my least favorite part of 3.x... the anime influences. I prefer to play more traditional fantasy, instead of anime.

You know, I hear everyone say that, and I always think: 'fluff distinction.' Fluff is the easiest part to change, and is completely doable on the fly. Have you looked at the mechanics? If you have, how do you feel about the mechanics, divorced from their "anime" placement?

[Overlord]

By the way, Generic PC, if, for future reference, you need to search the forums you can do this:

1. Go to www.Google.com
2. Click on the little "advanced search" link next to the search form.
3. Scroll down to the line that says "Only show search results from this domain," or something like that.
4. Enter into that form, "www.Giantitp.com" (without the quotes).
5. Enter into the "Search for ALL words" field "tob" or whatever you're looking for (again, quotes aren't needed, although they are used as a search operating function-searching for an exact phrase).
6. Click "Search."
7. You have just searched the forum (as well as the archive, something I don't think the forum can easily do. What's more, I usually find a Google search to be more effective a getting what I'm looking for than a forum search.

I hope that helped.

[Jack Mann]

Or just put in the search bar of google "site:http://www.giantitp.com/forums," with no quotes. Follow it with whatever word or phrase you're looking for.

[Reel On, Love]

I think I know why I've been grumpy about ToB... it's trying to bring anime combat into D&D. That's my least favorite part of 3.x... the anime influences. I prefer to play more traditional fantasy, instead of anime.

Oh come on.
Stone Dragon is HITTING THINGS while on the ground.
Iron Heart is HITTING THINGS really hard.
White Raven is HITTING THINGS better because of tactics.
Setting Sun is THROWING THINGS so they hit other things.
Diamond Mind is HITTING THINGS while concentrating so you do it right.
Tiger Claw is HITTING THINGS with sharp things while being angry and jumping.
Devoted Spirit is being a gritty action-movie-style hero who just doesn't fall down... while HITTING THINGS.

What's anime about that? It's not anime unless you're yelling out "FIVE SHADOW WHATEVER LONG NAME SHADOW HAND STRIKE!!!!!!!!!!11111one1".

Sure, I Make Fire and I Kill You From/With/In The Shadows are supernatural and flashy... but, hey, you could easily play them as Western mysticism rather than anime. There's nothing anime about most of the disciplines, and nothing that *has* to be anime about the rest.

For the record, I make more gritty, hardcore-badass type characters with ToB than without.

[Matthew]

You know, I hear everyone say that, and I always think: 'fluff distinction.' Fluff is the easiest part to change, and is completely doable on the fly. Have you looked at the mechanics? If you have, how do you feel about the mechanics, divorced from their "anime" placement?

I have taken a look at the mechanics, and I have to say I don't think much of them. They're okay, but nothing amazing. It is basically the Spell Slot system with powered down Spontaeous Spells and a conditional recharge rate. I don't mind it as far as it goes, but I wouldn't have chosen this as a 'solution' to the shortcomings of Melee Combat Characters. What really gets on my nerves is the overhyping of it as some sort of miracle cure.

[Reel On, Love]

I have taken a look at the mechanics, and I have to say I don't think much of them. They're okay, but nothing amazing. It is basically the Spell Slot system with powered down Spontaeous Spells and a conditional recharge rate. I don't mind it as far as it goes, but I wouldn't have chosen this as a 'solution' to the shortcomings of Melee Combat Characters. What really gets on my nerves is the overhyping of it as some sort of miracle cure.

Miracle cure? Well, it makes melee guys good at high levels. Check. It makes them much more fun to play, both tactically and Awesome-wise. Check. It deals with melee characters' lack of mobility, versatility, and defense. Check.

Sure looks like a cure from here.

And oh, yeah--no, it's NOT the spell slot system with a recharge rate. You can ready one copy of each maneuver, there's not a recovery rate but a recovery mechanism--which can make things interesting tactically (take a Swordsage: do you want to waste a round recovering your maneuvers, or just fight on without them?) and the effects don't usually resemble spells (barring some Desert Wind and the Shadow Hand teleports). Boosts/Strikes/Counters also distinguish it.

[Matthew]

Miracle cure? Well, it makes melee guys good at high levels. Check. It makes them much more fun to play, both tactically and Awesome-wise. Check. It deals with melee characters' lack of mobility, versatility, and defense. Check.

Sure looks like a cure from here.

OMGTOBFTW! Whatever. It doesn't do anything for me.

And oh, yeah--no, it's NOT the spell slot system with a recharge rate. You can ready one copy of each maneuver, there's not a recovery rate but a recovery mechanism--which can make things interesting tactically (take a Swordsage: do you want to waste a round recovering your maneuvers, or just fight on without them?) and the effects don't usually resemble spells (barring some Desert Wind and the Shadow Hand teleports). Boosts/Strikes/Counters also distinguish it.

Note that I did not say it's 'the spell slot system with a recharge rate', I said that 'it is basically the Spell Slot system with powered down Spontaeous Spells and a conditional recharge rate.' If you like it, that's fine. To me it's just more rules that I can do without.

[Reel On, Love]

OMGTOBFTW! Whatever. It doesn't do anything for me.

Okay, whatever, you just don't like it, great. That doesn't mean it's not a cure for what ailed melee, because it does take care of that pretty freaking well.

Note that I did not say it's 'the spell slot system with a recharge rate', I said that 'it is basically the Spell Slot system with powered down Spontaeous Spells and a conditional recharge rate.' If you like it, that's fine. To me it's just more rules that I can do without.

It's not that, either.
And, you're welcome to do without them, I guess... but it does do what none of the other rules don't, and it IS basically a miracle cure.

[Fax Celestis]

OMGTOBFTW! Whatever. It doesn't do anything for me.

Note that I did not say it's 'the spell slot system with a recharge rate', I said that 'it is basically the Spell Slot system with powered down Spontaeous Spells and a conditional recharge rate.' If you like it, that's fine. To me it's just more rules that I can do without.

...which is a valid stance. I don't have a problem with people who don't like the system because it's 'not necessary,' or 'too complex,' or other complaints that basically boil down to 'I don't want it in my game because I don't like how it works.'

I do, however, have a problem with the 'wrong feel' type complaints. Why? Because flavor is the easiest thing to change. Most DMs do it all the time with basic things: making the elves from a specific nation or killing off all the gnomes. Changing the fluff is easy; changing the mechanics are hard.

[Tokiko Mima]

OMGTOBFTW! Whatever. It doesn't do anything for me.

Note that I did not say it's 'the spell slot system with a recharge rate', I said that 'it is basically the Spell Slot system with powered down Spontaeous Spells and a conditional recharge rate.' If you like it, that's fine. To me it's just more rules that I can do without.

I wouldn't describe it as Spontaneous at all. You prepare your manuevers in advance of combat, and barring the Adaptive Style Feat, you're married to the ones you've selected. It's very much prepared, just like a Wizard.

The system more closely mirrors once per encounter Feats, but because of the level/action/tier restrictive structure, you eventually gain access to manuevers much more powerful than a Feat usually is.

[Reel On, Love]

Most DMs do it all the time with basic things: making the elves from a specific nation or killing off all the gnomes.

Hah, I don't even need to kill off all the gnomes. I don't even remember the last time someone wanted to play one.

[Matthew]

Okay, whatever, you just don't like it, great. That doesn't mean it's not a cure for what ailed melee, because it does take care of that pretty freaking well.

No reread my original post. I neither like nor dislike ToB itself. It's 'okay', what I dislike is the attitude that has been fostered around it. It doesn't solve anything for other Melee Characters because it jsut creates new Melee Classes. If some of these Manoeuvres were available as Feats at reasonable levels with the same recharge rate or whatever, it might be a useful fix.

It's not that, either.
And, you're welcome to do without them, I guess... but it does do what none of the other rules don't, and it IS basically a miracle cure.

Eh, of course it is. Is there a Slot system? Check. Do you recharge your Slots under certain conditions? Check. Are Manoeuvres low powered Spell like effects whose use is called Blade Magic? Check. Okay, it's not Spontaneous in all aspects, but Stances are and the tight Manoeuvre limit is really what put me in mind of that.

[Edited for clarity]

[Tengu]

I think I know why I've been grumpy about ToB... it's trying to bring anime combat into D&D. That's my least favorite part of 3.x... the anime influences. I prefer to play more traditional fantasy, instead of anime.

So mythical heros like Cuchulain or Heracles, and movies like 300, are anime?

[Matthew]

So mythical heros like Cuchulain or Heracles, and movies like 300, are anime?

Well, 300 is a kind of anime, as far as being inspired by a comic book.

The deeds of Cuchlain I'm not familiar with, but it's worth noting that Hercules is the son of Zeus, which lends a certain leeway to what he is capable of. It's not anime, for sure, it's mythology, which is itself slightly different from the D&D paradigm (though only slightly).

I wouldn't describe it as Spontaneous at all. You prepare your manuevers in advance of combat, and barring the Adaptive Style Feat, you're married to the ones you've selected. It's very much prepared, just like a Wizard.

The system more closely mirrors once per encounter Feats, but because of the level/action/tier restrictive structure, you eventually gain access to manuevers much more powerful than a Feat usually is.

Yeah, you're right about that. I was thinking of Stances and the limited Manoeuvres Known mechanics.

...which is a valid stance. I don't have a problem with people who don't like the system because it's 'not necessary,' or 'too complex,' or other complaints that basically boil down to 'I don't want it in my game because I don't like how it works.'

I do, however, have a problem with the 'wrong feel' type complaints. Why? Because flavor is the easiest thing to change. Most DMs do it all the time with basic things: making the elves from a specific nation or killing off all the gnomes. Changing the fluff is easy; changing the mechanics are hard.

Of course, that creates an interesting dichotomoy. Someone can dislike the anime feel of ToB (if that's what they perceive) and still quite like the mechanics or vice versa. Viewing ToB as essentially a mechanical book (which is probably valid) will lead to the conclusion you arrived at.