The Appeal of Cursed Magic

[DoomHat]

My three favorite classic D&D magic items are The Sword of Berserking, The Backbiter Spear, and The Mace of Blood. I'll take any of those three or items like them over a boring no frills [+X Weapon] at every opportunity.

I've mused for a long time and occasionally embarked on writing exercises to try and figure out how to make the rest of the usual catalog of cursed items as or more practically useful as the above examples. I've always wanted to play a game that had a magic system where all spells were similarly weird and costly (though not necessarily as tonally dark).

I just wanted to know how alone I am in this preference. Does anyone else prefer their magic and blessings to come with strange caveats?

[inuyasha]

Absolutely. Magic being amazing is great, but magic with caveats makes it feel alien, strange, and truly wondrous.

This is why most of my games use a variant of wild magic (in my current one, all the spellcasters encountered have been wild-casters just because my players find it as funny as I do).

For this same reason, I'm also a big fan of the Ravenloft Dark Powers check, giving consequences to black magic and blasphemy (among other things), and giving weird powers/penalties when the checks are failed.

[Jormengand]

A lot of the cursed items, their drawback can be turned into a benefit (such as the cursed -2 sword where the inability to leave your possession, combined with quick draw, can be used for extra triggers on "Whenever you draw your weapon" effects). Some are just straight-up good (dust of sneezing and choking is just good as a weapon, and I'm not the only person who would go to great lengths to gain the girdle of masculinity/femininity). Lesson to learn: someone, somewhere will turn the drawback into an added bonus.

[JellyPooga]

It would be an interesting limitation on the "christmas tree effect" if every single item had some kind of drawback or side effect; one or two such items in your posession would be ok, but five? Ten? Just tracking all those little things, let alone the effects themselves, would make the accumulation of such items, or the lack of, self-policing.

[LaserFace]

I like all sorts of curiosities that give you power at a cost. Adding this dimension to some items can make for some interesting decisions and problems for players, and I think if used appropriately add a lot of fun to the game.

I don't think a drawback is a necessary include with most items, though. It's true, a cursed weapon tends to be a lot more interesting than Generic +1 Longsword, but it's my policy to never hand out Generic +1 Longswords. For every piece of treasure I give out that isn't gold, scrolls or potions, I try to give it as much characterization as a cursed item might have; I give it a history, distinct markings, small properties, basically everything you find in DMG 142-143.

I find this approach dials back PC thirst for upgrades (they seem to get attached to items that were thoughtfully constructed), and reminds me to not shower the party with loot (the added effort is sometimes a barrier when I'm lazy, or alternatively lets me take full stock of just how much crap I'm actually giving them when I realize how much time went into it).

Overall, I think both Cursed Magic Items and simply Detailed Non-Cursed Magic Items are fun and healthy for gameplay. I think the actual Curse aspect is most beneficial in its ability to change things up, though. I wouldn't include one unless I thought it would get people thinking.

[Darth Ultron]

I have always liked the idea that magic is a strange, dangerous unknowable power. People can use it, but with a risk. Divine magic is mostly safe, as the gods 'filter' it, and a lot of simple magic is mostly safe......but otherwise anything can happen.

Fiction is full of dangerous and interesting magic...but D&D has gone down the sliding slope of making magic as dull, boring and robotic as possible. Worst was starting with 3E and the rule of ''the spell does exactly what the page says it does always..beep." Yet fiction..including most D&D novels too...contains things like ''two wizards fought and ripped open a hole to the dimension of nightmares when they died in spell-battle''. Yet you won't find any official rules even hinting at that.

In my own game I like to make magic strange and dangerous. An old classic is having [evil] type spells summon snakes, bugs and such...sometimes under the casters control, but often not. And [good] spells summon more good and noble creatures. My magic house rules are extensive...

And Curses are a favorite of mine. I have always liked the idea of ''forbidden'' places and things that ''punish'' people that go there or use them.

I do recall a player of mine, more then once, using the cursed sword trick. So when they would get captured, and loose all their stuff and weapons, the character could always 'pop' the cursed sword back to their hand at a later time.

[Drynwyn]

If you're into that sort of thing, I recommend reading Unknown Armies 2nd or 3rd edition. 2nd edition in particular is a game that's mostly about magic with weird requirements and caveats.

[LadyFoxfire]

My friend was telling me about a character in his game who had a bag of devouring and used it as a trash can/toilet.

[inuyasha]

Oh dang, using one as a toilet sounds like you're just asking for trouble...

[Eldan]

We should homebrew some more of those, they are always fun. I'm spontaneously thinking of an item that stores knowledge, but also constantly whispers to the bearer, making it hard for them to concentrate and depriving them of sleep.

[BWR]

A lot of the cursed items, their drawback can be turned into a benefit (such as the cursed -2 sword where the inability to leave your possession, combined with quick draw, can be used for extra triggers on "Whenever you draw your weapon" effects). Some are just straight-up good (dust of sneezing and choking is just good as a weapon, and I'm not the only person who would go to great lengths to gain the girdle of masculinity/femininity). Lesson to learn: someone, somewhere will turn the drawback into an added bonus.

And at this point you have missed the point of the item being cursed. Neither I nor any DM I know would allows this sort of nonsense.

[GungHo]

The Hammer of Dwarf Throwing is great when you need to get across a gap.

[Jormengand]

And at this point you have missed the point of the item being cursed. Neither I nor any DM I know would allows this sort of nonsense.

To me, the attempt to get around the curse is far more interesting than the "And now you have a -2 penalty. Well, this'll sure make for some fun and interactive gameplay!"

Say, what is the point of the items being cursed? Just as a DM "Screw you" to the players, Tomb-of-Horrors style? Or as an actually interactable-with fact of the world?

[FreddyNoNose]

My three favorite classic D&D magic items are The Sword of Berserking, The Backbiter Spear, and The Mace of Blood. I'll take any of those three or items like them over a boring no frills [+X Weapon] at every opportunity.

I've mused for a long time and occasionally embarked on writing exercises to try and figure out how to make the rest of the usual catalog of cursed items as or more practically useful as the above examples. I've always wanted to play a game that had a magic system where all spells were similarly weird and costly (though not necessarily as tonally dark).

I just wanted to know how alone I am in this preference. Does anyone else prefer their magic and blessings to come with strange caveats?

A cursed item isn't suppose to be a benefit. Attempts to workaround and turn it into a benefit should generally backfire.

[Max_Killjoy]

If the cursed item has an effect, that effect has implications and interactions with the rest of the "reality" that the characters inhabit.

With descriptive context, the item does what it does, and has the effect that it has, and interacts with the rest of the setting.

Dropping a giant "NOPE" on players following through with the implications and interactions of that effect within the setting... and inflicting a mechanics-only curse with no descriptive context, is pushing the RPG into board-game territory.


And what is even the point of that sort of "just inflicts a negative" cursed items, anyway? It strikes me as of-a-kind with those stupid ear-burrowing worms that were added to D&D just to "punish" players for listening at doors.

[BWR]

To me, the attempt to get around the curse is far more interesting than the "And now you have a -2 penalty. Well, this'll sure make for some fun and interactive gameplay!"

Say, what is the point of the items being cursed? Just as a DM "Screw you" to the players, Tomb-of-Horrors style? Or as an actually interactable-with fact of the world?

Like Freddy said, it isn't a curse if you make it work for you. A curse is something you want to get rid of because it screws you over. This is not the same as going all 'gotcha', as some people like to call it. Call it Classical thought: attempts to outwit destiny or work around curses backfire. Cursed items can have many origins: screw-ups when making something, deliberate traps to kill people (usually specific ones, and then the item makes its merry way around the world), and evil gods playing tricks are the major that come to my mind. While you may argue that from a metagame perspective it is to screw over incautious players, you can say that about tons of other things like traps and certain monsters. I think it's just a fun part of the game.

[Jormengand]

I think it's just a fun part of the game.

What's fun about "Oh, you know that cool weapon you have, that may be your entire class? Oh yeah, you can't use it, you have to use this longsword instead, and also you get a -2 to attack and damage rolls because screw you, that's why."

What's the point of having a feature of the game which exists only to stop people doing cool stuff and give them -numbers instead? What's the point of the amulet of "Lol, no, you just die"?

It's also the difference between a trap, and the ToH not!traps which can't be searched or disable device'd, but which just kill you outright because screw you, that's why. There's no roll or method or strategy for finding cursed items. There's only what you choose to do when you have one. If I'm not using the Armour of Arrow Attraction to help me tank archers for my allies, it's only serving as a "No screw you that's why."

[BWR]

What's fun about "Oh, you know that cool weapon you have, that may be your entire class? Oh yeah, you can't use it, you have to use this longsword instead, and also you get a -2 to attack and damage rolls because screw you, that's why."

What's the point of having a feature of the game which exists only to stop people doing cool stuff and give them -numbers instead? What's the point of the amulet of "Lol, no, you just die"?

It's also the difference between a trap, and the ToH not!traps which can't be searched or disable device'd, but which just kill you outright because screw you, that's why. There's no roll or method or strategy for finding cursed items. There's only what you choose to do when you have one. If I'm not using the Armour of Arrow Attraction to help me tank archers for my allies, it's only serving as a "No screw you that's why."

Why would a soulknife be wielding a sword in any case?
I suppose I can interpret your position as "make everything easy and safe for the players so they don't have to worry" then, shall I? Once we're going for strawmen, I mean.
The fun bit is it is a challenge. It is an obstacle to overcome. It is something hampering you which you have to handle. That is an important part of D&D, perhaps the most important part. It's the sort of thing that may be irritating right then and there but which is a lot of fun later. Cursed items encourage caution and most issues can easily be rectified past a certain level. Remove Curse isn't that hard to get hold of unless you are like 1st or 2nd level.

[Anymage]

Yes. In D&D, any time you have a problem there's a spell custom tailored to be the solution. In a way, that's precisely why I think DoomHat and others feel the way that they do.

-2 to hit and damage really isn't that interesting. Neither is "you just died, next time remember to test new items out on hirelings before using them yourself". Curses in fiction overwhelmingly had a plot-level focus (something trickier to do in a collaborative world) over simple mechanical penalties.

Many cursed items in the DMG can be turned around to the party's tactical advantage. That's a distraction to the main point. The real point is that many more cursed items feed into two popular fictional tropes; magic carries risks, and magic comes with a price. D&D magic doesn't do either one well. (At the very least, a skill based magic system would bring uncertainty that the slot based system doesn't.) Items with costs and/or tradeoffs are the closest you get to that concept.

[DoomHat]

I couldn't disagree more strongly with those in favor of cursed items being strictly a negative. I am profoundly philosophically opposed. I understand that some people, somehow, enjoy slow oppressive "bomb disposal squad" dungeon delving, and Munchkin style "gotcha!" but personally that kind of thing sets my teeth on edge. I do my utmost to keep that style of play 150ft from my person at all times.

I find it heartening that a lot of people have so far agreed with me that curses are more interesting as tricky decision making exorcises. Dark temptations. Flaws to embrace, work through, around, and be empowered by, as opposed to pure obnoxious burdens to be disposed of or destroyed by.

[Beelzebubba]

What's fun about "Oh, you know that cool weapon you have, that may be your entire class? Oh yeah, you can't use it, you have to use this longsword instead, and also you get a -2 to attack and damage rolls because screw you, that's why."

What's the point of having a feature of the game which exists only to stop people doing cool stuff and give them -numbers instead? What's the point of the amulet of "Lol, no, you just die"?

It's because it's a game, and the game presents challenges.

Sometimes you get knocked out because a spell hits your weak saving throw.
Sometimes you get nerfed because a monster is immune to your most damaging attack.
Sometimes you get hindered because the environment prevents you from certain tactics.
Sometimes you get interfered with by political forces that make a normal activity forbidden for a while.

Etcetera.

A cursed item is yet another temporary challenge to be overcome.
Overcoming challenges is part of the fun.

...isn't it?

PS - what's this Amulet you're talking about?

[Jormengand]

There's a difference between a challenge and artificial difficulty.

Let's take two items to demonstrate, the -2 longsword and the necklace of strangulation.

A character who picks up a -2 longsword, takes it home, and only discovers after having owned it for a week that it's cursed, is faced with the challenge of "How can I still fight effectively with a terrible sword?" The challenge has answers - there's the cheese-weasel answer of "Invest in iajutsu focus and the quick draw feat and wreck face with not!Sneak Attack", or you can try to use it and still adventure normally, only with a penalty, or you can use it as a throwing weapon because hey, free ammo - there are options, so long as the DM doesn't say "No, any way to use this sword for a benefit goes horribly wrong because I say so". If the DM does, then it turns out you got slapped with a -2 to attack/damage and inability to use any other weapons because you weren't careful.

The necklace of strangulation, on the other hand, can't be used as anything but a DM "Screw you." Oh, you didn't use a miracle that you probably can't cast at this point to identify a moderately-expensive necklace just in case it's the Necklace of No, You Just Die, Because Screw You, That's Why? Well that's a crying shame, isn't it. There's no counterplay to the necklace of strangulation: even if you happen to know that limited wish, wish and miracle would prevent it (you have no way to learn that this is the case), what's the chance you know it or have it prepared? 6 damage a round gives you a solid minute or two to figure out what to do, and practically nothing is effective. And I'm not saying "Practically nothing" for comic effect: there is, for all intents and purposes, no way to figure out that the necklace will try to kill you, and nothing you can do to stop it. This is Tomb-of-Horrors-no-it's-not-a-trap-and-can't-be-searched-for-or-disabled-but-it-kills-you-anyway-level nonsense from the necklace of strangulation right here. It's not a challenge, you just die. Dying isn't a real challenge, it's just the DM making rocks fall. The DM can already make rocks fall; she doesn't need a cursed item to tell her how to.

[LaserFace]

I think a -2 Longsword is about as bad as a +1 Longsword, maybe worse because nobody likes strict debuffs.

I'd much prefer some kind of Longsword of Mad Rage that disallows the wielder to take actions in combat other than 1) Attack an enemy or 2) Move toward an enemy so you can attack it. I might even give it a +1.

I do think the "Curse" aspect for the wielder should actually be bad, though. Sometimes you can find clever ways to make it still somewhat useful, ie that Necklace of Strangulation, but I find the whole appeal of cursed items to be "You are suffering from this Curse now. How do you deal with it?", Not "Oh this thing is bad, but I guess you can use it on your enemies."

[BWR]

I do think the "Curse" aspect for the wielder should actually be bad, though. Sometimes you can find clever ways to make it still somewhat useful, ie that Necklace of Strangulation, but I find the whole appeal of cursed items to be "You are suffering from this Curse now. How do you deal with it?", Not "Oh this thing is bad, but I guess you can use it on your enemies."

Pretty much this.

It occurs to me now that we have two different things here and have been kind of talking about them as the same thing while arguing about which it should be, while mechanically they are indistinguishable. One is the trap item, intended to appear harmless or useful but actually mess someone up. Dust of Sneezing and Choking and Necklace of Strangulation can very easily be made as they are to trap stuff or kill people. Properly created and used, these aren't dangerous to the user. They have one mechanical effect which is reliable and strictly limited. The other is the genuine curse. They mess you up and probably don't function quite as intended when created. It doesn't matter what you try to do with it, your results will be unintended and tragic. You try to throw the Dust in someone's face, a breeze blows it back into yours. You try to assassinate someone with the Necklace, it's found and used by a loved one. You try to use the sword for stupid quick draw (which is another peeve of mine) nonsense and the sword doesn't let you do it. The actual mechanics of the items themselves are the same but they are actually curses, not just another magic item.

I just feel that curses should be cursed, not useful.

[DoomHat]

Pretty much this.

It occurs to me now that we have two different things here and have been kind of talking about them as the same thing while arguing about which it should be, while mechanically they are indistinguishable. One is the trap item, intended to appear harmless or useful but actually mess someone up. Dust of Sneezing and Choking and Necklace of Strangulation can very easily be made as they are to trap stuff or kill people. Properly created and used, these aren't dangerous to the user. They have one mechanical effect which is reliable and strictly limited. The other is the genuine curse. They mess you up and probably don't function quite as intended when created. It doesn't matter what you try to do with it, your results will be unintended and tragic. You try to throw the Dust in someone's face, a breeze blows it back into yours. You try to assassinate someone with the Necklace, it's found and used by a loved one. You try to use the sword for stupid quick draw (which is another peeve of mine) nonsense and the sword doesn't let you do it. The actual mechanics of the items themselves are the same but they are actually curses, not just another magic item.

I just feel that curses should be cursed, not useful.

This is exactly the opposite conversion I was expecting this thread to wind up going in.
As some have already pointed out, the core gist of my OP was, "Hey, I prefer my magic to come saddled with weird or terrible prices, anyone agree?".

So, I was expecting people to take umbrage with the notion of magic items and potentially even casting being taxed in that way. It would have never occurred to me that people would be upset by the idea that curses could ever be allowed to have any sort of upside.

[Eldan]

I'm not opposed to curses having upsides. But those upsides should not be too obvious. I like my players to work for them.

In fact, one of the things I like as a DM is when my players come up with an unexpected idea and turn a negative into a positive. Can be any kind of negative, doesn't have to be an item.

What I mean is, what I don't want is players going "This sword gives +6 to damage, but makes you mute? Pff, barbarians don' need to speak anyway." That's cheap.

Giving it to an enemy can be fun, though. There's this rather glorious tomb of horror story that's going around, though I don't remember the details. There's two magic items that you need to advance in the dungeon, but if the same person holds both, they are disintegrated with no save. So the party managed to put both of them on the basically unbeatable demilich endboss.

That kind of thing is fantastic.

[Darth Ultron]

This is exactly the opposite conversion I was expecting this thread to wind up going in.
As some have already pointed out, the core gist of my OP was, "Hey, I prefer my magic to come saddled with weird or terrible prices, anyone agree?".

So, I was expecting people to take umbrage with the notion of magic items and potentially even casting being taxed in that way. It would have never occurred to me that people would be upset by the idea that curses could ever be allowed to have any sort of upside.

Well, this is three types of magic:

*Cursed Magic: This is the nasty punishment magic for breaking a rule or custom or other such thing. D&D does not really support this type of magic in 3X or beyond, but it's common in older editions.

*Trapped Magic: This is called ''cursed'' magic in 3X and above. This is the magic item made to be a harmful trap. Like most traps and ''gotcha'' things they have been watered down in 3X.

*Magic with a Price: This is magic that offers an effect, but for a price. D&D does not really support this type of magic in 3X or beyond, but it's common in older editions.


Though you can mix all the types of magic together. Like a Ring of Water Breathing that is an unholy item of Skorn the Fish God. The ring has a curse and a trap: if you don't worship Skorn you can't remove the ring and it will slowly polymorph you into a fish. Though for the price it is a ring of water breathing.

[DoomHat]

*Magic with a Price: This is magic that offers an effect, but for a price. D&D does not really support this type of magic in 3X or beyond, but it's common in older editions.

I'm really confused by how objectively untrue this is? What about the Mace of Blood that only functions if you actively choose to maintain a coat of blood on it and risk inevitably succumbing to chaotic evil impulses? What about the Spear of Backbiting that works perfectly fine except that you might be willfully risking taking damage on a fumble? What about the Sword of Berserking which IN ITS VERY RULES AS WRITTEN strait up acknowledged that some people will probably be perfectly willing to accept and exploit the trade-off.

I call your attention to the entire swath of text and tables labeled "Dependent", "Requirement", and "Drawbacks" Right Here In Cursed Item Section of The SRD.

[Zale]

The whole "What Should Curses Be" tangent reminds me of how some Rogue-likes (Especially to my knowledge Nethack) handles cursed things.

If something is cursed or not can be super important to a playthrough of Nethack because the status of something can change it's magical effect. Most of the time this is flatly negative (Exploding wands and armor you can't remove).

But sometimes it just inverts the effects of an item. A Potion of Gain Level does what you might think. A Cursed Potion of Gain Level instead bumps you up a level in the dungeon. Some of the items can totally be leveraged to do useful things because they do the exact opposite of what they're supposed to do.

It can add a fun element to play.

I'd honestly prefer a cursed item that has a defined effect that can be used if the players are creative rather than one that is just uninteresting negative. It's more fun to watch a group figure out how to use a throwing hammer that throws you instead of itself than it is to watch them go, "Well time to find someone to uncurse this so we can dump it."

It makes it feel kind of dull.

[Darth Ultron]

I'm really confused by how objectively untrue this is? What about the Mace of Blood that only functions if you actively choose to maintain a coat of blood on it and risk inevitably succumbing to chaotic evil impulses? What about the Spear of Backbiting that works perfectly fine except that you might be willfully risking taking damage on a fumble? What about the Sword of Berserking which IN ITS VERY RULES AS WRITTEN strait up acknowledged that some people will probably be perfectly willing to accept and exploit the trade-off.

I call your attention to the entire swath of text and tables labeled "Dependent", "Requirement", and "Drawbacks" Right Here In Cursed Item Section of The SRD.

Yes, 3X does have a very small handful of ''cursed'' and ''magic for a price'', all most all in one section. But the vast bulk of all 3X magic is of the ''all ways works for the best way for whiners and complainers to have fun''.

3X does not have any ''must have'' items or spells, like the ones most roll playing optimizers demand they must have to role play their character, that have ''a price''.