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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    So, I had an idea to do a kind of Leverage type story for around two to three people where the players are a part of a guild that helps steal BACK items that are wrongfully taken.

    One of the highest ranking families is tied to the underworld, and the guards are in their pocket. Can't go to law enforcement? Can't get it back yourself? You one of those lowly peasants most people don't give a rat's rear end about? Someone took the only thing of value to your name?

    We got you.

    It's not going to be extremely combat heavy, but for players who enjoy problem solving, intrege, and stealth.

    There's probably going to be a lot of new items catering to the style of play. Glasscutters. Potions and poisons. That stuff. And as this guild is more for getting stuff back, they probably won't get as much money as a normal d&d game. This would make it more challenging to get lots of these items at the start. It wouldn't exactly be a "low-magic campaign" as much as magic items would be harder to get, due to being expensive and regulated. Also, considering you steal from a lot of people who don't exactly like you, contacts wouldn't be near as numerous.

    I was thinking of doing a turnaround on the players for the first session. I'm thinking of making some later level premade characters for them, just for the first session. Basically they'll be out on a job, but at the end these premade characters are killed, and they roll their actual characters as new recruits in the guild. The first session will play into the start as plot a set up. Though I'm still deciding if they should know about what will happen with the premades and all, or just go with a "trust me. You'll like it. We're going somewhere with this" approach.

    This guild is, of course, being targeted. The campaign will revolve around the city for quite a few levels, and it'll be a big city with plenty to explore. Hopefully with quite a few twists and surprises.

    An alternate idea of them being in the guild is that the guild has to scatter after the event they do for session one, and the guild is now in scattered groups throughout the city in hiding. The players would have to do missions to keep helping clients without getting caught, as well trying to get the guild back on its feet.

    How does it sound? Any extra ideas and tips for something like this? Things that would be added to the city? How to keep the quests interesting and nonrepetitive?

    Really. Any additional thoughts and ideas are welcome. I'm a relatively new DM who's only been running a campaign for the past few months, but I LOVE stealth games and have had something like this rattling around in my head quite a while. What we have been playing up till now has been a official module, so I'm betting this level of homebrew would be quite different. Probably going to try to get more experience before actually doing this, but I want to be plotting and setting up ideas in the meantime, you know?
    Last edited by shadowkat678; 2017-08-11 at 06:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowkat678 View Post
    So, I had an idea to do a kind of Leverage type story for around two to three people where the players are a part of a guild that helps steal BACK items that are wrongfully taken.

    One of the highest ranking families is tied to the underworld, and the guards are in their pocket. Can't go to law enforcement? Can't get it back yourself? You one of those lowly peasants most people don't give a rat's rear end about? Someone took the only thing of value to your name?

    We got you.

    It's not going to be extremely combat heavy, but for players who enjoy problem solving, intrege, and stealth.

    There's probably going to be a lot of new items catering to the style of play. Glasscutters. Potions and poisons. That stuff. And as this guild is more for getting stuff back, they probably won't get as much money as a normal d&d game. This would make it more challenging to get lots of these items at the start. It wouldn't exactly be a "low-magic campaign" as much as magic items would be harder to get, due to being expensive and regulated. Also, considering you steal from a lot of people who don't exactly like you, contacts wouldn't be near as numerous.

    I was thinking of doing a turnaround on the players for the first session. I'm thinking of making some later level premade characters for them, just for the first session. Basically they'll be out on a job, but at the end these premade characters are killed, and they roll their actual characters as new recruits in the guild. The first session will play into the start as plot a set up. Though I'm still deciding if they should know about what will happen with the premades and all, or just go with a "trust me. You'll like it. We're going somewhere with this" approach.

    This guild is, of course, being targeted. The campaign will revolve around the city for quite a few levels, and it'll be a big city with plenty to explore. Hopefully with quite a few twists and surprises.

    An alternate idea of them being in the guild is that the guild has to scatter after the event they do for session one, and the guild is now in scattered groups throughout the city in bidding. The players would have to do missions to keep helping clients without getting caught, as well trying to get the guild back on its feet.

    How does it sound? Any extra ideas and tips for something like this? Things that would be added to the city? How to keep the quests interesting and nonrepetitive?
    I'm not sure what system you're planning to play in, but you will need a way to differentiate what each character is good at so that everyone has a chance to shine. If you're using a system that uses character classes, you can look at heist movie archetypes to get a feel for some classes: TVTropes Link. If you're not running a class-based system, make sure you have skills/abilities/spells related to each area.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinker View Post
    I'm not sure what system you're planning to play in, but you will need a way to differentiate what each character is good at so that everyone has a chance to shine. If you're using a system that uses character classes, you can look at heist movie archetypes to get a feel for some cclasse. If you're not running a class-based system, make sure you have skills/abilities/spells related to each area.
    I'm planning 5e D&D with personal modifications to better fit a stealth game. Guess I forgot to add that. Sorry.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    So it's like Robin Hood meets the A-team? I'd play that.

    The premade characters for a single session sound like a good idea. Get them in on what kind of altered mechanics there are so they can meaningfully make new characters.

    One thing to take into account is that you may see a bit of splitting the party, because not everyone's job is in the same place. While the runner parcours a rope up the wall so the cat burglar can drop through the window and open the door the muscle is already standing at the door to be closest in case backup is needed, and the face will be chatting up the guards for most of the heist. This will complicate play somewhat. A good map and a decent idea of time relative to what the others are doing might help get everyone back on the same page when it's suddenly needed.
    The Hindsight Awards, results: See the best movies of 1999!

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    So it's like Robin Hood meets the A-team? I'd play that.

    The premade characters for a single session sound like a good idea. Get them in on what kind of altered mechanics there are so they can meaningfully make new characters.

    One thing to take into account is that you may see a bit of splitting the party, because not everyone's job is in the same place. While the runner parcours a rope up the wall so the cat burglar can drop through the window and open the door the muscle is already standing at the door to be closest in case backup is needed, and the face will be chatting up the guards for most of the heist. This will complicate play somewhat. A good map and a decent idea of time relative to what the others are doing might help get everyone back on the same page when it's suddenly needed.
    Yeah. About like that, and I thought about that. Which is why I think it's probably going to be a smaller party. Four people max. I'm going to have to figure that out, as well as what to do for lower levels.
    Last edited by shadowkat678; 2017-08-11 at 12:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    So it's like Robin Hood meets the A-team? I'd play that.

    The premade characters for a single session sound like a good idea. Get them in on what kind of altered mechanics there are so they can meaningfully make new characters.

    One thing to take into account is that you may see a bit of splitting the party, because not everyone's job is in the same place. While the runner parcours a rope up the wall so the cat burglar can drop through the window and open the door the muscle is already standing at the door to be closest in case backup is needed, and the face will be chatting up the guards for most of the heist. This will complicate play somewhat. A good map and a decent idea of time relative to what the others are doing might help get everyone back on the same page when it's suddenly needed.
    "In 972, a band of merry men was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Sherwood Forest underground. Today, still wanted by the government they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them....maybe you can hire The M-Team."

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    R-Team for rogues, in more ways than one.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    I'd play the hell out of this.

    Do you want the players to have reduced access to wealth and contacts, or is it just something that seems like a natural consequence? Because you could get a pretty cool network of underworld contacts - not the big underworld names, if those are your antagonists, but freelancers and neutral parties. Maybe even a few law-enforcement types who are sick of the rest of the force being totally corrupt.

    And for wealth - I mean, if you're in the guy's house anyway, and you already know he's a real piece of scum, you might as well grab the silver on the way out, right? (If you actively want to restrict gold, I would be ready for the players to have this thought process all on their own, by the way.)

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowkat678 View Post
    R-Team for rogues, in more ways than one.
    M is for subterfuge.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    With the whole premade characters thing; do not, I repeat, do not let on that those characters are only temporary. I've run that kind of session before (though in the game I did it, it ran to two sessions) and it totally works as a "gotcha". My players were completely blind-sided and it turned out to be one of the best games any of our group had played. Ever. We still talk about it ten years later, as if it were only last week. Having said that, it does set a certain tone for the game i.e. survival/horror/high lethality, which 5ed may not lend itself too well to (I ran it with GURPS and the game was heavily based on the film Aliens, so I actually wanted my players to have that survival/horror mind-set).

    Given that you're running 5ed, I would suggest not giving or insisting eveyone takes the actual Rogue class. Backgrounds, especially custom ones, will serve you well to give the "rogue" feel and the appropriate skills needed to feel like a member of this organisation. You might want to put some limits on certain classes, however; Druids, Clerics, Paladins and to an extent Monks and perhaps Rangerd may take some explaining to shoe-horn into appropriate roles, if only from a fluff point of view. Don't be afraid to be generous on that front if a player (when creating their own characters) comes up with something good; it's their character after all. On the other shoe, don't be afraid to say "no" if their concept simply doesn't fit.

    One thing I cannot stress enough, is that the more work you put in, the better the game will be. You have a concept and you need to keep it on track. This doesn't necessarily mean busting out the railroads, but by doing little things like maps and pre-prepped notes can really enhance the feel you're going for.

    Other than that, this sounds like an awesome game concept! Games that have a focus like this often turn out much more entertaining than the typical "generic adventuring" games that are so often played.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    With the whole premade characters thing; do not, I repeat, do not let on that those characters are only temporary. I've run that kind of session before (though in the game I did it, it ran to two sessions) and it totally works as a "gotcha". My players were completely blind-sided and it turned out to be one of the best games any of our group had played. Ever. We still talk about it ten years later, as if it were only last week. Having said that, it does set a certain tone for the game i.e. survival/horror/high lethality, which 5ed may not lend itself too well to (I ran it with GURPS and the game was heavily based on the film Aliens, so I actually wanted my players to have that survival/horror mind-set).

    Given that you're running 5ed, I would suggest not giving or insisting eveyone takes the actual Rogue class. Backgrounds, especially custom ones, will serve you well to give the "rogue" feel and the appropriate skills needed to feel like a member of this organisation. You might want to put some limits on certain classes, however; Druids, Clerics, Paladins and to an extent Monks and perhaps Rangerd may take some explaining to shoe-horn into appropriate roles, if only from a fluff point of view. Don't be afraid to be generous on that front if a player (when creating their own characters) comes up with something good; it's their character after all. On the other shoe, don't be afraid to say "no" if their concept simply doesn't fit.

    One thing I cannot stress enough, is that the more work you put in, the better the game will be. You have a concept and you need to keep it on track. This doesn't necessarily mean busting out the railroads, but by doing little things like maps and pre-prepped notes can really enhance the feel you're going for.

    Other than that, this sounds like an awesome game concept! Games that have a focus like this often turn out much more entertaining than the typical "generic adventuring" games that are so often played.
    Well, isn't it more about the atmosphere than the mechanics? I mean. I've only been playing D&D myself for half a year (about?) and DMing a few months, but I've played a few different games and they were all vastly different. One of them had a DM aptly named after a angel of death. I got killed my first night. And Curse of Strad is a module from the Ravenloft setting. Flipped through it and it certainly gives a horror feel.

    Definitely keeping the players not knowing thing in mind.

    I was actually thinking about coming up with more subclasses to fit those other classes, or supporting multiclassing. For example, a illusion based magic character with some stealth skills could certainly come in handy. I'd definitely listen to any ideas. After all, out of the box and clever ways of thinking is why I love rogues and stealth games!


    Do you want the players to have reduced access to wealth and contacts, or is it just something that seems like a natural consequence? Because you could get a pretty cool network of underworld contacts - not the big underworld names, if those are your antagonists, but freelancers and neutral parties. Maybe even a few law-enforcement types who are sick of the rest of the force being totally corrupt.

    And for wealth - I mean, if you're in the guy's house anyway, and you already know he's a real piece of scum, you might as well grab the silver on the way out, right? (If you actively want to restrict gold, I would be ready for the players to have this thought process all on their own, by the way.)
    That makes sense. My line of thought is they probably won't be going to the high class, well guarded areas as rookies. That would probably be reserved for higher operatives. And the people coming to them often don't have much to pay anyway.
    Last edited by shadowkat678; 2017-08-11 at 06:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Why D&D? It's not well suited to this at all. D&D is a combat game.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    Why D&D? It's not well suited to this at all. D&D is a combat game.
    This.

    You can do this whole concept virtually without modification using the actual Leverage RPG, and I'd recommend it. Heist games have a very specific structure, and while you could do it in D&D, the system will be fighting you the entire way.

    It's not going to be extremely combat heavy, but for players who enjoy problem solving, intrege, and stealth.
    D&D is just really, really crap at those kinds of games.

    Also:

    I was thinking of doing a turnaround on the players for the first session. [...] Though I'm still deciding if they should know about what will happen with the premades and all, or just go with a "trust me. You'll like it. We're going somewhere with this" approach.
    Stop and think about this for a second. Has this ever gone well for you as a DM? Have you ever heard of it going well for anyone as a DM? Have you ever heard of a player saying "Man, the DM totally bait and switched us in that session and it was awesome"?

    You know your players best, obviously, but stop and think about whether the players are likely to respond to this the way you want them to.
    Most of the problems in this hobby derive from insecurity and immaturity.

    Ream's First Law of Gaming: As a 90% approximation, all RPGs are D&D.
    Corollary to the First Law: Regardless of the setting, genre, or assumptions of any game that is not D&D, the first thing the fan base will do is try to play D&D with it.
    Ream's Second Law of Gaming: Balance is a canard, and points don't mean anything.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by daniel_ream View Post
    This.

    You can do this whole concept virtually without modification using the actual Leverage RPG, and I'd recommend it. Heist games have a very specific structure, and while you could do it in D&D, the system will be fighting you the entire way.

    D&D is just really, really crap at those kinds of games.

    Also:

    Stop and think about this for a second. Has this ever gone well for you as a DM? Have you ever heard of it going well for anyone as a DM? Have you ever heard of a player saying "Man, the DM totally bait and switched us in that session and it was awesome"?

    You know your players best, obviously, but stop and think about whether the players are likely to respond to this the way you want them to.
    I've heard of plenty of games not combat heavy people have done with D&D. I'm a broke college student without a job who already knows 5e, and has the books. It's far less expensive and time consuming for me to modify what I have and take from old editions to merge in then to start with something completely new that I have to learn. Also, I said it wouldn't be combat heavy, not that there wouldn't be any at all. And I like the fight mechanics.

    Not to mention it was in the DM guide where I first saw the concept of a intrigue game with D&D mentioned. D&D also has a bigger fan base, and I might not be playing it with my current players.

    For the last question...more than one. That part of the idea I got from reading a Reddit D&D thread on subverting game tropes, and there were at least three people who told a story about having this pulled and really liking it. Then there was someone who replied on this very thread, citing the adventure as one of their favorites.

    I'm also out to make a game I MYSELF would love playing. Kinda like the "if you can't find a book that fits with what you want, write it" philosophy. I will be hosting on Roll20 when the time comes, and thus I can easily find enough players. It also allows me more visual online sources to draw from. They'll know the type of game they're going into by the description.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowkat678 View Post
    It's far less expensive and time consuming for me to modify what I have and take from old editions to merge in then to start with something completely new that I have to learn.
    I think with time and experience, you'll find that that's rarely the case. D&D isn't the most complicated RPG in existence, but it's right up there. There are a number of RPGs that you can teach in under fifteen minutes, including character generation, and many of those are cheap or free.

    Not to mention it was in the DM guide where I first saw the concept of a intrigue game with D&D mentioned.
    What exactly did you expect it to say? "This game sucks for genre X. Put this book down and go buy a different game." You can drive a nail with a socket wrench, but it's not the best tool for the job. You can play any concept with any RPG, too, it all depends on how much of the RAW you're willing to throw out entirely, rewrite, or make up from scratch. That doesn't mean all RPGs are suited to all concepts.

    For the last question...more than one. That part of the idea I got from reading a Reddit D&D thread on subverting game tropes, and there were at least three people who told a story about having this pulled and really liking it. Then there was someone who replied on this very thread, citing the adventure as one of their favorites.
    So some Internet stories that may or may not have happened, or happened the way they were recounted.

    Come on, man. It's the Internet. How many real, live people you've talked to in person have thumbed-up this idea?

    I'm also out to make a game I MYSELF would love playing.
    The most likely result of that is you'll be the only one playing it. Make a game that your players would love to play, and you'll get to play it.
    Most of the problems in this hobby derive from insecurity and immaturity.

    Ream's First Law of Gaming: As a 90% approximation, all RPGs are D&D.
    Corollary to the First Law: Regardless of the setting, genre, or assumptions of any game that is not D&D, the first thing the fan base will do is try to play D&D with it.
    Ream's Second Law of Gaming: Balance is a canard, and points don't mean anything.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    D&D is a poor fit for this style of game, simply because D&D is high magic and high magic takes a hammer to traditional non-magic intrigue scenarios in short order. This is similar to how intrigue scenarios in futuristic settings ultimately end up turning into outgrowths of the hacking system - because everything has become digital - intrigue in D&D becomes magical intrigue and spell vs. counterspell.

    There are any number of games that are much better for this kind of sword & skullduggery approach to gameplay. Beyond specific examples this falls quite well within the FATE Core design space (Fate core is full of allusions to the Nehwon stories of Fritz Leiber - which include many examples of the kind of campaign you're describing - for a reason), and Fate is available for free.
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by daniel_ream View Post
    This.

    You can do this whole concept virtually without modification using the actual Leverage RPG, and I'd recommend it. Heist games have a very specific structure, and while you could do it in D&D, the system will be fighting you the entire way.
    I came in here to recommend the Leverage RPG, so consider it seconded.

    I think it could be adapted to a fantasy or "urban magic" setting without too much trouble.

    Or, you could simply mine the game for inspiration on how to adapt D&D to this genre -- which might be more work, but it's not me doing the work, so yeah. :) I can't really complain either way.
    Last edited by Nifft; 2017-08-11 at 11:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Looked at the Leverage thing, but I can't find a free pdf and if I have to pay for something I want the physical copy, which is, like, $40. I also still like a lot of the D&D mechanics, and the setting would still be fantasy, so there would definitely still have to have quite a bit of tweaking to fit what I'm looking to run.

    I don't think it'd be hard to find players, considering that quite a few people seem to like the idea of it.
    Last edited by shadowkat678; 2017-08-12 at 11:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    Why D&D? It's not well suited to this at all. D&D is a combat game.
    Quote Originally Posted by daniel_ream View Post
    D&D is just really, really crap at those kinds of games.
    Gonna strongly disagree with both of these statements. My experience is mostly 3.5/Pathfinder and I've literally lost count of how many combat-free sessions I've played over the past few years. Last year one campaign had three no-combat sessions in a row; I was the first to get restless, and that was only because my character was an orc barbarian and about as useful as a Jell-O screwdriver, which isn't a problem you'll have when everyone knows up-front that that's the way the game was going to go. And there's a number of threads on these exact forums detailing spectacular high-intrigue, low-combat campaigns. Kaveman26's Chaotic Goodfellas log from a while back has a similar thieves-and-scammers-and-intrigue premise to OP's, and it sounds like it was a great time. (OP, I strongly recommend checking it out.)

    I haven't played 5E myself, but there are multiple plot-heavy campaign podcasts set in it, and they're emotionally engaging enough to be popular (and the one I actively follow reduced me to tears the other night), so I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say 5E doesn't need to be an all-combat hack-and-slash either. At least not if you have an imaginative DM and engaged players.

    Also, OP, I feel you on the 'because I already bought the books for this system and I'm broke' logic. With the right players and the right concept, an imperfect system is not a huge obstacle. Hell, if I weren't in one game and running another right now I'd be asking where to sign up.

    I don't know what it is with Playground forums and the tendency to respond to 'help me polish this idea!' with 'it's a bad and stupid idea, so throw out everything you want to do and start over with my pet build/system/concept/ethos.' It's incredibly discouraging, and it's why I never post as much as I want to.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    I'd avoid D&D for this (Leverage has been mentioned, but Blades in the Dark is also worth a look), but that's literally the only thing about the concept that I'd have any trepidation about. Stealth focused underworld game? Sold. The core setting is a single large city? Sold. The false start with pregens who all get brutally killed? Sold. I can also personally confirm that all of these elements work, as I've GMed games with all of them, with the single large city being particularly common.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

    I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that.
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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Can anyone tell me WHY they don't think D&D 5e would work? I agree that there's rpgs that specifically cater to stealth type games, and I get there are ones simpler (although I tend to like the complexity. Feels like there's more options and customization, which I love), but I don't get the "the system just sucks for it.

    I agree with the second poster above me about sessions being run without combat. We just are finishing up Lost Mines of Phandelver, and we've had a few. And, more than that, they've become some of the best sessions. Especially those featuring our group's pet goblin NPC who one of our characters got addicted to candy. No fights beat that. It's absolutely hilarious. Pure hack and slash tend to be my least favorite types of games.
    Last edited by shadowkat678; 2017-08-12 at 04:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowkat678 View Post
    Can anyone tell me WHY they don't think D&D 5e would work? I agree that there's rpgs that specifically cater to stealth type games, and I get there are ones simpler (although I tend to like the complexity. Feels like there's more options and customization, which I love), but I don't get the "the system just sucks for it.
    Because 5e's rules for stealth are known to be bad. So a stealth based game I 5e means you are choosing to focus on one of the weakest and most argument inducing parts of the system.

    The other reason is because D&D is inherently high magic and that kind of magic tends to rip apart intrigue scenarios. The classic example is solving a murder mystery using speak with dead, but there are countless others involving divination spells and other options.
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Because 5e's rules for stealth are bad. So a stealth based game I 5e means you are choosing to focus on one of the weakest and most argument inducing parts of the system.

    The other reason is because D&D is inherently high magic and that kind of magic tends to rip apart intrigue scenarios. The classic example is solving a murder mystery using speak with dead, but there are countless others involving divination spells and other options.
    Which is why I've already started coming up with things. Such as a better knock out mechanic. Ways to give advantages to stealth skills through role play. Numerous items such as bringing in pathfinder's masterwork kits, different kinds of gear for situations, etc. Factoring in more variables to how they would get through with things instead of a simple roll. A lot of things can be done. There's plenty in that thread you linked showing how GMs have dealt with it. I just don't understand. Why would it be better to give up all the other mechanics one likes and go to another system when you can just tweak things yourself? Isn't that what's so cool about Pen and Paper games?

    And D&D doesn't have to be high magic. Restrict the number of magic items in the world, make mages more scarce, that's a VERY easy fix. I believe there's more than one low magic D&D official setting. Not everything takes place in the Forgotten Realms.

    And there WILL be magic. Including plenty homebrewed items and spells, or things taken from past editions. There's entire official source books from earlier editions for making thieves guilds and stuff. Also, for the murder issue? Obviously he either didn't see the killer, the killer was disguised, or the killer was possing as someone else using magic, and now we have a framing to figure out.
    Last edited by shadowkat678; 2017-08-12 at 08:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowkat678 View Post
    Which is why I've already started coming up with things. Such as a better knock out mechanic. Ways to give advantages to stealth skills through role play. Numerous items such as bringing in pathfinder's masterwork kits, different kinds of gear for situations, etc. Factoring in more variables to how they would get through with things instead of a simple roll. A lot of things can be done. There's plenty in that thread you linked showing how GMs have dealt with it. I just don't understand. Why would it be better to give up all the other mechanics one likes and go to another system when you can just tweak things yourself? Isn't that what's so cool about Pen and Paper games?
    The reason is that people are trying to save you all the work you're describing. You're going to have to extensively modify the system, including the production of major homebrew rules that won't be playtested and therefore will require constant tweaking. Effectively you won't be running 5e, you'll be running a homebrew system on the 5e chassis (which BTW, since it is unique to your table, makes asking for help here of greatly reduced value, since we have no idea how your modified system will actually function).

    Also, your players may or may not buy into this. If you're playing with friends/people you know who trust you as a GM this is probably okay, but if you're playing with a group that you don't know or playing online extensively homebrew tends to be the source of endless arguments and is likely to kill campaigns.

    A gaming system is like a complex computer program with a lot of redundancies. Yes, you can make it do things it wasn't designed to do, but doing so takes additional effort and is likely to confuse your audience and you often would be much better off starting with the appropriate tool from the start. You can write a novel in MSPaint if you really want too, but wouldn't it make more sense to us MSWord?
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    The reason is that people are trying to save you all the work you're describing. You're going to have to extensively modify the system, including the production of major homebrew rules that won't be playtested and therefore will require constant tweaking. Effectively you won't be running 5e, you'll be running a homebrew system on the 5e chassis (which BTW, since it is unique to your table, makes asking for help here of greatly reduced value, since we have no idea how your modified system will actually function).

    Also, your players may or may not buy into this. If you're playing with friends/people you know who trust you as a GM this is probably okay, but if you're playing with a group that you don't know or playing online extensively homebrew tends to be the source of endless arguments and is likely to kill campaigns.

    A gaming system is like a complex computer program with a lot of redundancies. Yes, you can make it do things it wasn't designed to do, but doing so takes additional effort and is likely to confuse your audience and you often would be much better off starting with the appropriate tool from the start. You can write a novel in MSPaint if you really want too, but wouldn't it make more sense to us MSWord?
    That makes sense, but wouldn't the game be homebrew regardless of the system, since I already planned a lot with D&D in mind. I already thought of a world. The kind of monsters from D&D I'm using. The magic. I still need to look up Fate, but if I were to do Leverage none of what I already have with those fits into the world. Would I just lift the stealth system off and use D&D for everything else?

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    My suggestion is to open to scope of that organisation your players are going to be a part of. If it's restricted to "steal back object X from person/location Z" it''s going to get somewhat repetitive sooner or later. You can upgrade from houses to mansions to banks to castles but beyond that it seems fairly...linear.

    You could add missions like "find/provide proof that this person is a criminal so the city guard can/will act against him." or even more general stuff like "shut down this criminal (organisation)" to give your players more possibility for actual outside the box thinking. If it's just retrieval of stolen goods every time it's probably going to end up as a heist of some sort every time.


    If you can, watch Mission Impossible. The TV Series, not the movies. I haven't seen Leverage but from what I have read there seem to be certain similarities. Similar enough, at any rate, that I will want to try and watch Leverage.

    Being part of a guild also helps create more diverse missions. You can have the protagonists' team sent in after a team of NPC has failed. The previous team could be captured, dead or even turned to keep things interesting. On other missions you can give the team support. E.g. they want to run a con but need a bunch of people to act as background.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gensuru View Post
    My suggestion is to open to scope of that organisation your players are going to be a part of. If it's restricted to "steal back object X from person/location Z" it''s going to get somewhat repetitive sooner or later. You can upgrade from houses to mansions to banks to castles but beyond that it seems fairly...linear.

    You could add missions like "find/provide proof that this person is a criminal so the city guard can/will act against him." or even more general stuff like "shut down this criminal (organisation)" to give your players more possibility for actual outside the box thinking. If it's just retrieval of stolen goods every time it's probably going to end up as a heist of some sort every time.


    If you can, watch Mission Impossible. The TV Series, not the movies. I haven't seen Leverage but from what I have read there seem to be certain similarities. Similar enough, at any rate, that I will want to try and watch Leverage.

    Being part of a guild also helps create more diverse missions. You can have the protagonists' team sent in after a team of NPC has failed. The previous team could be captured, dead or even turned to keep things interesting. On other missions you can give the team support. E.g. they want to run a con but need a bunch of people to act as background.
    Yeah, I was thinking of that. Probably going to do cons and other things as well, along with figuring out how to bring back the guild who who found them in the first place. It's going to branch out a bit after the first few jobs.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowkat678 View Post
    That makes sense, but wouldn't the game be homebrew regardless of the system, since I already planned a lot with D&D in mind. I already thought of a world. The kind of monsters from D&D I'm using. The magic. I still need to look up Fate, but if I were to do Leverage none of what I already have with those fits into the world. Would I just lift the stealth system off and use D&D for everything else?
    Yes, it would be homebrew. But it's going to be a lot more work to retrofit mechanics to support a heist game into D&D than to take an existing heist game and reskin it for a fantasy environment.

    By your own admission, the sum total of your RPG experience is six months playing canned D&D modules. I strongly suggest that you take a bit of time to look at other games that aren't D&D, because even if D&D is the 800-lb gorilla of the industry, there are literally thousands of RPGs out there that aren't D&D and do things very, very differently, often to support a specific genre that isn't D&D's default "dungeonpunk superheroes" brand of fantasy.

    You can pick up the Quick Start Rules for Leverage from DTRPG for about $2. It's worth it. Fate Core is around $25, if I'm not mistaken, the Fate SRD is free online, and there are dozens of pay-what-you-want campaign frames and worldbooks available for Fate.

    If you want a specific deconstruction of Why D&D Handles Intrigue, Stealth, and Problem Solving Poorly I can do that, but it's likely to cause more arguments than it resolves.
    Most of the problems in this hobby derive from insecurity and immaturity.

    Ream's First Law of Gaming: As a 90% approximation, all RPGs are D&D.
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    Ream's Second Law of Gaming: Balance is a canard, and points don't mean anything.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    If you want a D&D 'feel' but more focus on story-telling, I'd suggest running the rules-light Dungeon World system. It's designed with narrative in mind and isn't terribly high-magic.

    That said:

    The creator of Leverage is quoted as saying that he's used D&D's structure as a model for his series. There's no reason 5e CAN'T do what you want. Skill checks will have much more weight in such a game, and as previously stated, magic-users (which is more than two-thirds of the classes, at least in part) can make shorter work of such a game.

    Two or three people is a good range for a story-centric game, but you're going to want to encourage them to 'build' to trope. For three players, "Warrior" / "Mage" / "Thief" works well. If you end up with, say, a Paladin, a Druid and a Bard, well, that's team "We win D&D" due to their flexibility and breadth of abilities. But if you have a Fighter, a Wizard and a Rogue, the tropes are a little more solid and everyone has their skill/talent niche.

    Having two or three of the same class seems nice on paper, and if it's what the players want, fine... but don't force it to suit your game. Let the players create what they want to play (Session 0 helps here) and if they don't adapt well, let them figure it out.

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    Default Re: Feedback on rogue centered game idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Herobizkit View Post
    The creator of Leverage is quoted as saying that he's used D&D's structure as a model for his series.
    [citation needed]

    It's possible, I suppose, John Rogers wrote for D&D 4E. But given that Leverage is entirely heist-by-numbers and is indistinguishable from the A-Team, Mission Impossible, Ocean's N for 11 <= N <= 13, The Sting, Ronin, Heist (clearly) and just about every heist movie/show ever, I'd want to see a direct sourced quote before I believe that.
    Most of the problems in this hobby derive from insecurity and immaturity.

    Ream's First Law of Gaming: As a 90% approximation, all RPGs are D&D.
    Corollary to the First Law: Regardless of the setting, genre, or assumptions of any game that is not D&D, the first thing the fan base will do is try to play D&D with it.
    Ream's Second Law of Gaming: Balance is a canard, and points don't mean anything.

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