Tome of Battle

[Matthew]

Just thought I would open a new Thread to discuss Tome of Battle, since the Original Poster of the ToB Thread regarded the discussion there to be straying off topic: Previous Tob Thread

I didn't say it gives them the same amount of power, especially not compared to optimized casters. I said it puts them on the same SORT of power curve... over the period of time a caster gains 20% power, a warblade also gains about 20% power, instead of gaining 3% power like a fighter.

That's a parallel power curve, I would imagine you're describing. If they're still not as powerful as Full Casters, though, it doesn't really matter.

If your casters don't optimize too much, you actually do end up with a reasonable balance with ToB and core magic, though I suspect it'd be much better with ToB and ToM or ToB and XPH (I just haven't had the time to read/play through ToM or XPH yet.)

As do you if you nerf Casters against Fighters through Variant Rules or removing certain Spells/Feats.

It solved the vast majority of them for me. Maybe others are running into woes I'm not aware of, but for me personally, ToB pretty solidly fixed the melee woes I'd run into. (I have played a 1-20 game with 2 very competent casters, so I think I've got a fair idea of what woes melee runs into, but maybe I'm missing something.)

Which is all fine, but similarly people are capable of playing D&D without ToB and having the same experience.

True. I suppose the earlier "buff is better than a nerf" mentality comes into play. ToB's popularity also has something to do with the versatility it lends to melee characters. Traditional melee characters are very much tied to their builds in terms of what they can do. For instance, you will rarely see someone attempting to disarm someone else unless they are a dedicated disarmer fighter (Not that you see those anyway, tripping being a massively superior option).

However, any warblade can select Disarming Strike, which can allow him to reliably disarm an opponent even if he hasn't focused his entire build around. He can then follow it up with another maneuver next turn, either a pure damage one or one with another tasty effect, like one of those juicy con damaging strikes from Stone dragon.

I think that is indeed the main reason. People like shiny things. That's pretty much the business model behind 'expanding the system'. It's definitely true that ToB supports a greater degree of variety as well, but eventually people will get bored of that too and look for the next 'power up' or shiny thing.

Bastard Cross.
High Serpent.
Guard of the Arrow.
Iron Door.

These are the names of several stances from a Western martial arts manual used by 14th-century knights. Sound a lot like Tome of Battle maneuver and stance names, don't they? Many of the techniques in said manual even look like something you'd expect to see in a dojo... well, if you discount the fact that the combatants are in full plate and wielding longswords.

I think I have something of a middle ground thanks to my amazing perceptual abilities:

Most people (sorry about the surprise broadside Tengu) don't seem to be saying ZOMG replace all your old classes!@!@!. I seem to be hearing something more along the line of ZOMG why won't you at least allow them as an option.

If none of your players like the martial adepts, they won't get played. If your other melee'rs feel like they are being overshadowed... then what kind of casters do you have and why hasn't it already been a problem?

At the same time though, I agree with Fax, if its something you don't feel like learning, fine. I certainly don't want to ram something down somebody's throat.

@Matthew : out of curisosity, have you tried playing a martial adept ? Are they not simply more fun than the Fighter/Monk ? You're welcome to disagree ; it's my opinion that the 'increased fun' side does more for the ToB's reputation than the 'increased power' one.

14th century? Bloody modernists.

To develop on my point, however. Yes, those are fancily named maneuvers. Did any of them, say Resist Fire? Heal yourself of wounds? Attack two people at once? Walk in any kind of terrain, more effectively than you do on a flat sparring-room floor? Damage people with cold? Ignore damage? Smell things well enough to pinpoint anything within 5'? Because that's 1st level maneuvers from 7 of the 9 schools.

I'm not completely sure whether you're in the camp that wants to "uphold the honor of the PHB classes" , but just in case :


Combat Vigor feat (PHB2)


The Barbarian gets DR.


Combat Awareness feat (PHB2)

I suspect all the rest can be gained from items.

And about comparing D&D/the real world/wushu... well, one of the usual example is the use of skills, even physical ones. Jump & Balance can easily be considered to have an "anime feel" (whatever that means).


Maneuvers are almost always usable more than once per encounter (the only exception is a Swordsage that doesn't take Adaptive Style nor any other feat allowing recovery).

I shall expand upon why I used blasters as an example:

I play in large groups. That means large numbers of enemies. While your standard single target destructive spell is essentially the same in such conditions, AoE's can suddenly become far more useful than they normally would. When your casters can reliably hit 3-4 guys with a fireball, it quickly becomes pretty nice in combat. Especially if you have a Cleave/Great Cleave Fighter around.

[Roog]

14th century? Bloody modernists.

To develop on my point, however. Yes, those are fancily named maneuvers. Did any of them, say Resist Fire? Heal yourself of wounds? Attack two people at once? Walk in any kind of terrain, more effectively than you do on a flat sparring-room floor? Damage people with cold? Ignore damage? Smell things well enough to pinpoint anything within 5'? Because that's 1st level maneuvers from 7 of the 9 schools.

Take a Warblade, as the other two classes can have mystical elements, and they are the best fit to the situation. They have 8 possible 1st level maneuvers, with the most unbelievable being Stone Bones (gain DR5/adamantine for one round if the attack is successful), and you could argue that one is believable (with the right fluff).

You say "Attack two people at once", is an unbelievable ability. Is it unbelievable for a character with a BAB of 10? Is it unbelievable for a character with two weapons? Is it unbelievable for a character with flurry?

If you take the Warblades 5 possible 1st level stances, one of them gives scent (a non-realistic ability) but you are still free to pick a different stance, just like you are free not to pick a Feat that is too unrealistic for your taste.

[Ozymandias]

If you don't like the fluff, change it. If you don't like the crunch, disallow or house-rule it.

I object to the phrase 'anime feel'; there are certainly myriad anime with supernatural abilities etc, but there are plenty that are realistic. Even among the former camp, some (say, Rurōni Kenshin) generally avoid explicitly using impossible techniques et al (sure, there's plenty of pseudo-science, but that's a bit different in my opinion.) Kenshin can't fly, but he can jump really high so it's effectively the same thing. Sure, he can cut steel with his sword, but who can't these days? 'Excalibur' means 'cut steel' anyway.

[Roog]

Whats an anime feel?

A 10th level Barbarian (14 DEX and Run) and max skill can jump an average of over 30' with no magic and a 10th level monk an average of over 40'.

[Ulzgoroth]

I think that complaint calls for a cross-thread quote:

People tend to use "anime" as a catch all for "pretty much anything which originates east of Berlin". Hell I've heard Weapons of the Gods described as "anime" (because, y'know, China and Japan are practically the same country).

So "anime" might well actually mean "wuxia".

I think it *is* true that "western" traditions are less inclined to allow people to perform pseudo-magical effects with pure martial skill. A lot of what counts as a "martial art" in anime or a kung fu movie would count as "magic" in a more mainstream western fantasy.

I for one know approximately nothing about the technical terminology of modern eastern fantasy. I suspect I'm not alone in that, which is why 'anime feel' comes up so often. I know perfectly well that anime doesn't necessarily involve any of the features that get ToB tagged that way, but it is what some of them call to mind, and I for one lack the vocabulary to be more specific.

Whats an anime feel?

A 10th level Barbarian (14 DEX and Run) and max skill can jump an average of over 30' with no magic and a 10th level monk an average of over 40'.

A tenth level character is substantially superhuman. I'm not sure I see the problem here.

Though if you go down to less or non superhuman levels long jumping is still over the top a bit. This has been noted.

[Roog]

A tenth level character is substantially superhuman. I'm not sure I see the problem here.

I'm wondering what the difference between "substantially superhuman" and anime feel is.

[Kioran]

All the while, that monk would take lethal damage by the amount of distance or height he can jump unless he is adjacent to a wall, which is friggin ridiculous. I actually like the more absurd wire-fu, so letting monks auto-feather fall and such would be nice....Insane movement acrobatics, actually making the physical buffs more agile than casters.....


What I dislike about ToB, but also about the completes in terms of improving Melee characters: bigger numbers. A Core-only, somewhat optimised THF-Fighter does a maximum of 2d6+22 Damage (Greatsword, Str 22, +6 strength with items, +5 enhancement bonus +4 Focus tree) + Power Attack + additional damage Boni (flaming, freezing, Bane, whatever). That makes for an average of about 30 points of damage for an optimized Fighter, maybe 45 for a Rogue(1d6 Shortsword + 3 Strength + 10d6 Sneak + 5 Enhancement). Suddenly, massive Damage makes sense, because it´s, at least in Melee, only invoked with furious Power Attacks or succesful Sneak Attacks. I´ll also award anyone who finds a Core-Monster that reliably does more than 50 damage per attack a cookie.
Of course, casters could do much more, but only once per round, only limited times per day - and energy resistance is much easier to come by than DR, making your weapon damage much more valuable against anything but Oozes.
Of Course save-or-die makes these considerations moot, but basically, they´re solid - being hit with all someone at your lvl has got has killed you, and will kill you in 1-3 rounds, depending on your build.

Having a lancer build(complete Series) or diamond nightmare striking character(ToB) just turning your enemies into gory mist of course somewhat equals Save-or-die. But it upsets the calculation of damage in core, and actually makes Fights less flexible - to qoute PHB PSA´s in slightly modified form "If you´re not special attacking with a class feature, you ain´t doing Jack!".
It just puts everybody in his little niché, with little to no chance of coming out of it and doing something useful anywhere else (unless you´re Swordsage, in which case you can drop some of your maneuver-skills like concentration to learn skills for secondary Skillmonkey role).
It also upsets CR and makes fights stupid.

I can understand where the anime-feeling comes from (and not the good sort). It´s no longer Bob and William the player´s facing of their Barbarian and Rogues in a fierce battle against Fred the DM´s hulking monster in a contest of will and skills, but the parties facing of ridiculous amounts of HP, DR and fast healing + insta-death attacks against the power of Sneak attack and the Charge of gory red mist. The fight is much more binary, with characters and monsters reduced to their primary attack/class feature.
It´s no longer "you have some HD(Barbarians, Rangers and even Fighters have better HD than most Monsters save Dragons and Outsiders!) and additional capabilities we´ll take it from there" but a battle of the "OMG-Pwnzor special attacks". No more lateral thinking, tactics are reduced to setting up the field for your ultimate attack.

Much like MtG, which was, at least originally, also about tactics, 3.87 fights are more about preparation/deck-building and strategy, with the fights mostly decided before the first die is rolled/first card is drawn. I think one of the most intrigiung aspects of the game is lost that way.....

And while ToB gives you necessesary power to compete within the system, it doesn´t change what is wrong with the system (to much emphasis and power on and in class features imho).

[Matthew]

I'm wondering what the difference between "substantially superhuman" and anime feel is.

Here's how the conversation developed in the previous Thread:

I think I know why I've been grumpy about ToB... it's trying to bring anime combat into D&D. That's my least favorite part of 3.x... the anime influences. I prefer to play more traditional fantasy, instead of anime.

You know, I hear everyone say that, and I always think: 'fluff distinction.' Fluff is the easiest part to change, and is completely doable on the fly. Have you looked at the mechanics? If you have, how do you feel about the mechanics, divorced from their "anime" placement?

So mythical heros like Cuchulain or Heracles, and movies like 300, are anime?

Well, 300 is a kind of anime, as far as being inspired by a comic book.

The deeds of Cuchlain I'm not familiar with, but it's worth noting that Hercules is the son of Zeus, which lends a certain leeway to what he is capable of. It's not anime, for sure, it's mythology, which is itself slightly different from the D&D paradigm (though only slightly).

...which is a valid stance. I don't have a problem with people who don't like the system because it's 'not necessary,' or 'too complex,' or other complaints that basically boil down to 'I don't want it in my game because I don't like how it works.'

I do, however, have a problem with the 'wrong feel' type complaints. Why? Because flavor is the easiest thing to change. Most DMs do it all the time with basic things: making the elves from a specific nation or killing off all the gnomes. Changing the fluff is easy; changing the mechanics are hard.

Of course, that creates an interesting dichotomoy. Someone can dislike the anime feel of ToB (if that's what they perceive) and still quite like the mechanics or vice versa. Viewing ToB as essentially a mechanical book (which is probably valid) will lead to the conclusion you arrived at.

It's not merely fluff that places them with anime; their style and effects are quite similar. I'm reading several Desert Wind maneuvers and attributing them to Makoto Shishio, from Rurouni Kenshin. Stone Dragon? Sagara Sanosuke. Diamond Mind? Not too bad for Kenshin. I have trouble seeing these outside of a comic book/anime context.

For mechanics, they're not horrible... their mechanical basis doesn't seem out of line with magic of a similar level, bringing warriors up to par with wizards. But, quite frankly, they're not the game I want to play; I prefer to avoid wuxia in my games.

Man, what? Desert Wind is mystical, but "make fire, durr" isn't limited to anime. I mean, c'mon--Stone Dragon is just hitting things really hard and being tough! Diamond Mind is just discipline and focus.


Shadow Hand and Desert Wind have like all or all but one or two of the (Su) maneuvers. What wuxia? Look at what the maneuvers bloody well DO: Tiger Claw is pouncing on people and cutting them, Iron Heart and Stone Dragon are hitting them real hard and being tough, Devoted Spirit is Don't Fall Down. You CAN make them Wuxia, yeah--but it's definitely not the default.

One more thing about anime - anime is not a genre, it's a style of drawing cartoons. Shonen anime like DB, Naruto or Bleach (all three of which, I admit, I used to like and in case of Bleach still do) is just a grain of sand in the desert - I can easily give you at least half a dozen anime I've watched that didn't have ANY elements that most people mean when they say "anime feel".
Just a nitpick.

You're right. "Anime" in this case is a shorthand for "shonen anime with a significant fighting focus", but shonen anime is a genre in and of itself; it has certain genre conventions which influence the story-telling and action depicted, much like fantasy novels do. In such animes (and in the broader genre), it's not uncommon to have the strong idiot, the former adversary who is almost equal to the hero, but more ruthless, and the main hero, who is simply more awesome than anyone else.

It would be highly unusual to see an anime where people fight competently, but without secret maneuvers or tricks that depend on their school. Sure, there's other kinds of anime... but the style of ToB is very distinctly influenced by the shonen fighting anime.

Hmm... maybe Twelve Kingdoms? Many of the characters are good fighters, but in combat they rely on swordplay (or brute strength in some rare cases), not super-duper flashy special techniques. Granted, this anime is not about action, but it's more a social-political one (though it begins with the extremely used-up "schoolgirl ends up in another world" cliche).

I recently saw something called Tsukikage Ran--fansubbed, about a wandering samurai. the fights were short and without any kind of "special moves" on the samurai's part--just Iai swordsmanship... which, you'll note, has technique just like any kind of swordsmanship, but is fundamentally just cutting people.

As for maneuvers and tricks, well... those are widespread to Western swordsmanship of most periods, Renaissance duelling schools, and modern martial arts. I agree with ROL; hitting things is hitting things, whether you call it Mountain Hammer or not.

I do look at what they do. I also look at the broader mechanical context, which is heavily influenced by anime.* Maneuvers which are only usable once per encounter? Not that dissimilar from the various special attacks used in anime, from Kenshin's special strikes to DBZ's constipation-manuevers. How many times an encounter can Yusuke use his Rei Gun? About once per encounter, right? Anytime he's used it more than once in the same fight, there's usually a significant pause in the action... long enough for him to, say, take a full-round action to recharge his abilities.

I find it difficult to translate these into traditional Western literature; modern interpretations of them, certainly, but Beowulf didn't beat Grendel with "Ancient Mountain Hammer", he overcame it with strength and wrestling skill... things that anyone in Geatland had, but he was simply better at.

*To save Tengu time, when I say "anime", I'm referring to "shonen anime with a significant focus on combat", such as Dragonball Z, YuYu Hakusho, or Rurouni Kenshin. Yes, I know there are other types of anime.

Don't worry, I'm not that annoying to nitpick the same thing twice in one thread. Which does not say a lot, though.

[Ulzgoroth]

I'm wondering what the difference between "substantially superhuman" and anime feel is.

Taking a 30 foot long jump is superhuman. But it's superhuman by direct extrapolation of real capabilities, and it's at a level where PCs no longer fall anywhere close to mundane human capabilities. So it's just a matter of extraordinary strength/skill.

Some 'anime feel' features of ToB:
-Magic by martial arts. Lots of it, though only in 3 schools. And it doesn't all get supernatural-tagged...Lightning Throw!?
-Maneuvers are expended, rather than being on call anytime.
-A huge amount of the fluff. (Obviously, you can trim that, but it's still in the book)

[Ulzgoroth]

I can understand where the anime-feeling comes from (and not the good sort). It´s no longer Bob and William the player´s facing of their Barbarian and Rogues in a fierce battle against Fred the DM´s hulking monster in a contest of will and skills, but the parties facing of ridiculous amounts of HP, DR and fast healing + insta-death attacks against the power of Sneak attack and the Charge of gory red mist. The fight is much more binary, with characters and monsters reduced to their primary attack/class feature.

...where do the will and skill go away? I understand that the numbers go up, possibly, though it's often claimed that a correctly built charge-barb is still the ultimate in (ideal) damage per round. But you need more than larger or smaller numbers to somehow alter the fundamental logic.

Where are you claiming that the basic nature of the thing changed?

[Kioran]

...where do the will and skill go away? I understand that the numbers go up, possibly, though it's often claimed that a correctly built charge-barb is still the ultimate in (ideal) damage per round. But you need more than larger or smaller numbers to somehow alter the fundamental logic.

Where are you claiming that the basic nature of the thing changed?

Because the HP didn´t scale with it - just like save-or-die, the moment the lancer-Barb or Diamond nightmare Warblade hits you, your **** is ruined. Most people die from one, perhaps two of these attacks. Why risk exposure to such tactics or a Maze/Finger of Death when you can use such tactics to end the battle in one attack? Thus, people lvl their ultimate attacks at each other 90% percent of the time, and the first two rounds decide the entire fight(unless your swimming in Mooks). If you succeed, bam, you win. If you fail, you die horribly. No rethinking of plans because there isn´t time for it.

Core only, with blaster casters, most fights last a bit longer, and you might have time/success with alternate tactics.

[Roog]

I´ll also award anyone who finds a Core-Monster that reliably does more than 50 damage per attack a cookie.

Using a standard action...

Titan (CR21) uses its Maul of the Titans (+6 Gargantuan Warhammer) with both hands and Power Attacks for 6 (+12 dam), giving average damage 51 at +25 Attack.

That is, if it doesn't use that action to cast as a 20th level Wizard or 20th level Cleric.

[Fax Celestis]

Because the HP didn´t scale with it - just like save-or-die, the moment the lancer-Barb or Diamond nightmare Warblade hits you, your **** is ruined. Most people die from one, perhaps two of these attacks. Why risk exposure to such tactics or a Maze/Finger of Death when you can use such tactics to end the battle in one attack? Thus, people lvl their ultimate attacks at each other 90% percent of the time, and the first two rounds decide the entire fight(unless your swimming in Mooks). If you succeed, bam, you win. If you fail, you die horribly. No rethinking of plans because there isn´t time for it.

Core only, with blaster casters, most fights last a bit longer, and you might have time/success with alternate tactics.

Two things:

1. How is "success=win, fail=die" not representative of actual combat?

2. Lancers are perfectly capable of providing stellar damage output even while remaining within core, so stopp sing them to argue your point.

[Kioran]

Two things:

1. How is "success=win, fail=die" not representative of actual combat?

2. Lancers are perfectly capable of providing stellar damage output even while remaining within core, so stopp sing them to argue your point.

Stellar damage is something like 90 points, which is 20 BAB used for Power attack along with other optimization. Show me how to do more. More comes non-core, and Core-only you don´t hit anything when you do that much.

as for point 1: you are right, but 2-round fights decided by one or two tricks are somewhat predictable and depend only on the circumstances of the fight. You know your one ticket to victory. Hold that card and use it. ToB is good in so far as it gives you one or two additional cards so you´re no a one-trick pony, but it doesn´t remove the problem.
In my Core-only campaing, many fights last much longer than in the core+complete campaign before that. And the characters had to adapt to situations more than once, whioch is possible because mistakes aren´t instantly lethal, like they would be in a 3.87 fight.

Oh and the Titan? Does 4d6+27, average of 41 damage. Not even more than a sneaky rogue.

[Ozymandias]

Two things:

1. How is "success=win, fail=die" not representative of actual combat?

2. Lancers are perfectly capable of providing stellar damage output even while remaining within core, so stopp sing them to argue your point.

I think he's trying to say that ToB characters' most attractive option is letting loose immediately and finishing the fight as quickly as possible, instead of taking a more measured, drawn out, 'tactical' approach.

More broadly, I'd say he prefers a tactical, take-it-as-it-comes approach, as opposed to a more strategic, in-advance-build-optimization one.

I may be misreading.

[Qooroo]

Taking a 30 foot long jump is superhuman. But it's superhuman by direct extrapolation of real capabilities, and it's at a level where PCs no longer fall anywhere close to mundane human capabilities. So it's just a matter of extraordinary strength/skill.

Some 'anime feel' features of ToB:
-Magic by martial arts. Lots of it, though only in 3 schools. And it doesn't all get supernatural-tagged...Lightning Throw!?
-Maneuvers are expended, rather than being on call anytime.
-A huge amount of the fluff. (Obviously, you can trim that, but it's still in the book)

1. I fail to see how that's inherently anime. Yes, people achieving super-human, and often supernatural feats, by virtue of martial prowess is something that appears commonly in a specific sub-genre of anime. But it's hardly limited to that. Ancient western myth (Epic of Gilgamesh, Homer, Song of Roland) is full of examples of people doing phenomenally super-human things using only their skill. Yes, they were often godly in some respect, but in terms of capacity they were humans - just humans that were better at stuff than normal humans could be. Which is completely appropriate for D&D characters. You're the Big Damn Heroes. You should be able to do phenomenal stuff.
2. The maneuver system is a crunch conceit, just like the vancian magic system. It's part of the way D&D balances things. Furthermore, I really can't think of any examples in anime OR western literature that plays up that kind of limited times/day thing.
3. That's really your call, but I don't see how the fundamental fluff (different schools of martial training, each teaching their students to fight in a distinct fashion is a systemized manner) is inherently eastern. Yes, that could be used to describe various asian martial arts. It could also be used to describe various forms of fencing.

The system is designed in such a way that it can support a crazy shounen over-the-top martial arts anime flavour. Because there are people who like that and want it in their game. D&D, being a game of options, has provided people this ability. However, it's also equally suited for producing heroes of classical myth, or even just people who are just skilled combatants, without being particularly superhuman (any more than D&D already is, anyway) in appearance.

[Generic PC]

Woah... didnt think that so many people avoided TOB... I just wanna thank most of the people who sort of helped me understand TOB. Of, and Matthew, for making sure the thread didnt get locked or something...

[Roog]

Oh and the Titan? Does 4d6+27, average of 41 damage. Not even more than a sneaky rogue.

Titan:
4d6 + 6 (Weapon) + 13 (Str) + 6 (Two Hands) + 12 (Power Attack for 6) = 4D6 + 37

average 51 dam.



Twelve Headed Hydra (CR11):
Attacks with all heads on a standard action (+13 melee).
12 attacks x 1d10 + 6 = Average damage 138

OK it does less than that on average, but it is equivalent to a creature with one attack at the same hit number.

[Ulzgoroth]

1. How is "success=win, fail=die" not representative of actual combat?

I think he's more objecting to how (in his perception, anyway) that win/die will be decided, essentially, by the first attack to hit. Not that this is unrealistic, but it does make it a bit hard to try something different if it goes wrong the first time.

I've been thinking...it seems more or less universally assumed that the only viable tactic is all-out offense. Is it impossible to instead design a party to chip away slowly at the enemy while resisting attacks, so that battles don't resolve in a 3-round splatterfest? Without thereby taking more of a beating than the party that can puree the opposition instantaneously, but thinks nothing of using Shock Trooper to drop their AC to single digits.

[Fax Celestis]

You wanted to see damage output? Sure.

Let's go human Paladin, just so I can stay in core. A lance does 1d8, with a 20/x2 critical, and does double damage from horseback. I'll use the Elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) for ease of use.

Character Specifics:

Spoiler

Show

STR 15, DEX 8, CON 13, WIS 14, INT 10, CHA 12
1: Power Attack
1: Mounted Combat
3:Ride-By Attack
4: +1 Str
6: Spirited Charge
8: +1 Str
9: Cleave
12: Improved Critical (Lance)
12: +1 Str
15: Great Cleave
16: +1 Str
18: Trample
20: +1 Str

At level 5, when I get my mount, I will have a lance +1. I can power attack for 3 points at that point while charging without even dropping below my regular AB (+2 for charging, +1 for lance +1), and I can wield my lance in two hands. This is +6 damage, doubled on a charge, and I don't have to end my charge near my foe to do so due to Ride-By Attack.

ECL 5: (1d8+(3*1.5 [2-handed weapon])+(3*2 [power attack])+1)*2, or a range of 24-38.

At level 6, I acquire Spirited Charge. This makes my lance do *3 instead of *2 on a charge.

ECL 6: (1d8+(3*1.5)+(3*2)+1)*3, or a range of 36-57.

I can break Massive Damage at ECL 6. I can do it better if I start adding in proper (ie: WBL) gear, such as gauntlets of ogre power. This also doesn't take into account critical hits, power attacking for more than 3, or a flying mount (which is available as early as early as ECL 7, if you check the LA line on a giant eagle).

[Thrawn183]

I'd say the problem is the number of enemies that you have to take out very, very quickly. Full casters, beholders, anything with a special ability that is a death effect of some kind. An enemy cleric will have decent hp/ac/saves. The best counter is getting some spell resistance/saves and then taking them out as soon as possible (though not necessarily in that order).

Tactics and the like are great. Unfortunately they are most effective against random mobs: things that get into melee but that's about it, maybe ranged enemies that can't nova. The problem is that if your enemy can nova, you have to be able to do so as well. Any enemy that can kill you with a single action... you have a cumulative chance to die every round it survives.

[Matthew]

I think I have something of a middle ground thanks to my amazing perceptual abilities:

Most people (sorry about the surprise broadside Tengu) don't seem to be saying ZOMG replace all your old classes!@!@!. I seem to be hearing something more along the line of ZOMG why won't you at least allow them as an option.

Heh, that's true of this Thread and the last one, but I do seem to see it a lot elsewhere. To be clear, that is pretty much my only objection to ToB, the fervour that has sprung up around it.

If none of your players like the martial adepts, they won't get played. If your other melee'rs feel like they are being overshadowed... then what kind of casters do you have and why hasn't it already been a problem?

A good question. More than likely they are either playing below level 10 where it's just plain less of a problem or the Spell Casters are of the 'Blaster' type. Either way, introducing ToB doesn't solve any problems, it just provides additional options (some of which may appear too powerful in relation to the rest of the group)

At the same time though, I agree with Fax, if its something you don't feel like learning, fine. I certainly don't want to ram something down somebody's throat.

A good attitude, I think.

@Matthew : out of curisosity, have you tried playing a martial adept ? Are they not simply more fun than the Fighter/Monk ? You're welcome to disagree ; it's my opinion that the 'increased fun' side does more for the ToB's reputation than the 'increased power' one.

Never for a campaign. I have made a few to see what was possible and familiarised myself with the rules for one shot games. I'm not claiming ToB isn't fun, nor that it is poorly designed. I think it's 'okay', I just don't subscribe to it as a necessity for the game at large.
I think there are several elements involved in the fun aspect; ToB increases the power of high level Martial Characters. ToB is new and interesting. ToB provides a number of new variations on old tricks. ToB lets you play a different style of Martial Character. All of which is fine with me.

The things I consider a problem are if a Player buys Tome of Battle and insists that his Dungeon Master allows its use without regard for the context in which they are already playing or the desire of the DM to learn yet another bunch of rules. Something new gets released and somebody buys it and wants to persuade his regular group to try it, mainly as a means of seeking the spotlight for their new Character, rather than seelking to balance the game [they rarely want to DM these new Character Classes]. I have no problem doing this for one shots or games specifically tailored to accomodate the trying out of new rules, but it can really disrupt a regular campaign that is striving for balance (and has already achieved it).

[Ulzgoroth]

I'd say the problem is the number of enemies that you have to take out very, very quickly. Full casters, beholders, anything with a special ability that is a death effect of some kind. An enemy cleric will have decent hp/ac/saves. The best counter is getting some spell resistance/saves and then taking them out as soon as possible (though not necessarily in that order).

Tactics and the like are great. Unfortunately they are most effective against random mobs: things that get into melee but that's about it, maybe ranged enemies that can't nova. The problem is that if your enemy can nova, you have to be able to do so as well. Any enemy that can kill you with a single action... you have a cumulative chance to die every round it survives.

If you can make that chance small enough, though, it isn't as much of a big deal. An orc warrior with a scythe is also a bit of an instant death risk for a while, when the critical does something like 44 average damage without any power attack.

Survival tactics against spellcasters would almost certainly involve at least one person readying an attack to disrupt their magic, and as much hiding, magical protection, spell resistance, and save-pumping as you can manage. I don't feel at all competent to figure out how safe you can make yourselves that way, though. Or to tell how safe you need to be to compete with the 'do unto others, right away!' approach.

1. I fail to see how that's inherently anime. Yes, people achieving super-human, and often supernatural feats, by virtue of martial prowess is something that appears commonly in a specific sub-genre of anime. But it's hardly limited to that. Ancient western myth (Epic of Gilgamesh, Homer, Song of Roland) is full of examples of people doing phenomenally super-human things using only their skill. Yes, they were often godly in some respect, but in terms of capacity they were humans - just humans that were better at stuff than normal humans could be. Which is completely appropriate for D&D characters. You're the Big Damn Heroes. You should be able to do phenomenal stuff.

I went at some length on this topic before. In my opinion, anyway, there are phenomenal things that are mundane, and phenomenal things that aren't. For an example brought up there: Throw an apple through someone's skull? Sure, why not? (Actually, why not is because the apple would become sauce in your hand under the acceleration, but besides that...) You have to be insanely strong and fast, but it's just extrapolation. Phenomenal, but not magic. Flying, teleporting, manipulating supernatural shadows...those aren't. If you're flying, and you don't have wings, it's magic. It may or may not be phenomenal...in D&D flying magically isn't all that amazing.

I don't mind mundane characters doing phenomenal stuff. I do mind them doing magical stuff. Magic and swordsmanship are both things you can learn, but they aren't interchangeable.

2. The maneuver system is a crunch conceit, just like the vancian magic system. It's part of the way D&D balances things. Furthermore, I really can't think of any examples in anime OR western literature that plays up that kind of limited times/day thing.

Well, I suspect that the works of Jack Vance might have, though I haven't read them... Nothing in ToB is per day, though. You can recover maneuvers during battle if you really want to, and get them back for free in between fights (which is poorly defined...grumble...).

I realize it's a necessary balance feature. But nonetheless it does contribute to flavor, and yanking a different move out of your bag of tricks each time you act does seem odd.

3. That's really your call, but I don't see how the fundamental fluff (different schools of martial training, each teaching their students to fight in a distinct fashion is a systemized manner) is inherently eastern. Yes, that could be used to describe various asian martial arts. It could also be used to describe various forms of fencing.

As far as it goes, you're right. But that isn't anywhere near as far as it goes:
"As you make a successful attack, you enter a meditative state that leaves you almost invulnerable to harm. For a few brief moments, arrows bounce off your skin, and sword blows barely draw any blood" (Iron Bones)
"You crouch and set your feet flat on the ground, drawing the resilience of the earth into your body." (Stonefoot Stance)
...you know, either I have a great imagination substituting for memory, or I fail at searching. I can't find the vast stores of mysticism I remembered floating around the flavor text. A fair bit of Stone Dragon has 'focus your energy' stuff in it, and I bypassed the magic schools, but that's all I can dig up right now. So I may be completely full of it about the provided flavor.

[elliott20]

It seems to me a lot of the problems stems from the combat mechanics just doesn't give people an awful lot of options to work with. (Or at least, not without a huge number of feats devoted to it)

To be even decently competent at hitting someone or at doing a particular stunt, the game requires you invest in a large number of maneuvers that after a while are just not cost effective. So basically, you have to spend precious feats to be a bit more effective but still staying within the system of reason. Magic, on the other hand, goes the OTHER direction, where it increasingly becomes more and more powerful and eventually just outright breaks the rules all together, making the caster more and more exempt from various mechanics of the game. (This is where your insta-kill tactics come from)

All the while, the game already has very few physical combat options as to how you can deal with your enemy to begin with. When you introduce mechanics that makes these options obsolete, you have a problem.

[MrNexx]

Whats an anime feel?

A 10th level Barbarian (14 DEX and Run) and max skill can jump an average of over 30' with no magic and a 10th level monk an average of over 40'.

At 10th level, you're bordering on the section of the game called "wuxia", according to quartile theory (1-5 is gritty, 6-10 is heroic, 11-15 is wuxia, and 16-20 is superheroes).

The long jump is also notable for two of the longest-standing world records in any track and field event. ... On August 30 of [1991], Mike Powell of the USA leapt 8.95 meters at the World Championships in Tokyo.

World record for a running long jump is 8.95 meters, which is just shy of 30' (29', 4"). That's skill, not magic.

[Matthew]

It seems to me a lot of the problems stems from the combat mechanics just doesn't give people an awful lot of options to work with. (Or at least, not without a huge number of feats devoted to it)

To be even decently competent at hitting someone or at doing a particular stunt, the game requires you invest in a large number of maneuvers that after a while are just not cost effective. So basically, you have to spend precious feats to be a bit more effective but still staying within the system of reason. Magic, on the other hand, goes the OTHER direction, where it increasingly becomes more and more powerful and eventually just outright breaks the rules all together, making the caster more and more exempt from various mechanics of the game. (This is where your insta-kill tactics come from)

All the while, the game already has very few physical combat options as to how you can deal with your enemy to begin with. When you introduce mechanics that makes these options obsolete, you have a problem.

I think that's a fair assessment of the perceived problems inherent in the system. Since Combat is essentially abstract, it cannot model the nuances that might make it more interesting. ToB provides a host of mechanical options (each of which is somewhere between a Feat and a Spell) that serves to provide additional choices during combat with regard to limited resources and their best application to defeat a given challenge. Some of these are, like Feats, simply better than others, which is in my opinion a bit of a flaw, but not a major problem.

However, if I were seeking to make combat more interesting in this way (which, generally speaking I am not, as I find Combat to already be interesting enough for its purpose) I would be more inclined to allow already existing Martial Characters to learn these techniques and secrets through study at the Temples.

In many ways, this all reminds me of the 'Fighting Styles' from 2e, where you where the option was available to invent special Fighting Skills and learn them via Character Points/Proficiency Slots, which I think would be quite a fun approach.

Some Manoeuvres strike me as things that should already be part of the Combat system, such as Wall of Blades.

[Edit]
I wonder if some of this is due to how people choose to focus on how they play D&D [i.e. as a Tactical War Game as opposed to that being one facet of the whole].

[Roog]

At 10th level, you're bordering on the section of the game called "wuxia", according to quartile theory (1-5 is gritty, 6-10 is heroic, 11-15 is wuxia, and 16-20 is superheroes).

So if 11-15 is wuxia why do people complain about ToB being too anime? What makes ToB different?

World record for a running long jump is 8.95 meters, which is just shy of 30' (29', 4"). That's skill, not magic.

And if the Barbarian rolls well he will make 40'. I forgot tumble synergy and only had 14 DEX, so 45' foot is achievable at that level without any extra feats/magic/special abilities (and over 50' for the monk).

[MrNexx]

1. I fail to see how that's inherently anime. Yes, people achieving super-human, and often supernatural feats, by virtue of martial prowess is something that appears commonly in a specific sub-genre of anime. But it's hardly limited to that. Ancient western myth (Epic of Gilgamesh, Homer, Song of Roland) is full of examples of people doing phenomenally super-human things using only their skill. Yes, they were often godly in some respect, but in terms of capacity they were humans - just humans that were better at stuff than normal humans could be. Which is completely appropriate for D&D characters. You're the Big Damn Heroes. You should be able to do phenomenal stuff.

Again, there's also the level at which this takes place. Achilles? Demi-god, made nigh-invulnerable by his goddess mother. Hector? Not a 1st level warrior. Gilgamesh? Enkidu? Again, these are demi-gods who are doing demi-god acts. I don't know much of what you're referring to in the Song of Roland... care to point to examples?

For a more appropriate level of what people should be doing, IMO, at low-levels of play, try the Serpentwar Saga by Raymond Feist, especially the first book, Shadows of a Dark Queen. You've got a variety of characters there... ranging from low-level, beginning warriors (Erik and Roo's company), to higher levels (Sgt. Bobby), high-level wizards (Miranda), to templated characters (Calis, who is half-elf, quarter-human, quarter godling), to epic characters (Pug, Tomas).

The system is designed in such a way that it can support a crazy shounen over-the-top martial arts anime flavour. Because there are people who like that and want it in their game. D&D, being a game of options, has provided people this ability. However, it's also equally suited for producing heroes of classical myth, or even just people who are just skilled combatants, without being particularly superhuman (any more than D&D already is, anyway) in appearance.

I disagree. It's suited to making those great heroes at low levels, or making a shonen anime hero. To do something else, you have to cut substantial chunks from it... barring large chunks, and essentially remaking the system.

[Fax Celestis]

So if 11-15 is wuxia why do people complain about ToB being too anime? What makes ToB different?

I think the issue is that ToB opens with Wuxia, keeps up with Wuxia, and doesn't let up.

[MrNexx]

So if 11-15 is wuxia why do people complain about ToB being too anime? What makes ToB different?

Levels 11-15 are wuxia. Levels 1-10 are not. ToB changes that, pushing it into wuxia territory immediately. I seldom play higher than level 10; I don't like it. Why would I want to make the lower levels more like it?