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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    So, I've been wondering. For the purpose of simplicity and general lack of Skill Points for Crafting and Professions when other Class skills often take precedence, I'd like to ask the community what their feelings are on the subject of combining any kind of Craft skill dealing with metals into one Craft (Smith) skill? This skill would not allow the cutting of gemstones, even those being made into weapons... In such a case, 2 separate Craft checks would have to be made, one for Craft (Gemcutting) and one for Craft (Smithing) for the finished product.

    You could say something like Craft (Leatherworker) could include the knowledge and ability to harvest skins/pelts, tan/cure them and make any item out of Leather, such as boots, gloves, or anything else...

    Craft (Woodworker) could include the ability to craft Bows, Arrows, doors, houses, and virtually anything that could be made of wood.

    These are a few off hand examples. What's everyone's opinion? Does anyone think it's not logical? Does anyone think it's too OP? I don't see how it could be considered very OP myself, yet.

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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    I personally think that this would be more then reasonable, or to keep the checks separately you could give a certain number of bonus skill points at creation and certain levels only usable for craft/profession checks...
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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    I personally think that this would be more then reasonable, or to keep the checks separately you could give a certain number of bonus skill points at creation and certain levels only usable for craft/profession checks...
    I like this idea... like a series of points that are background-only, that can't be used for other class skills. That way you can make sure that the Rogues or other name-your-class-with-low-available-points can have a dark past or have a background profession or craft skill.

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    Post Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogie View Post
    I like this idea... like a series of points that are background-only, that can't be used for other class skills. That way you can make sure that the Rogues or other name-your-class-with-low-available-points can have a dark past or have a background profession or craft skill.
    There is already a rule for that in Pathfinder Unchained.

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/background-skills/
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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    I think the entire crafting system needs an overhaul, but this is a good place to start.
    The number of different categories you can have differs a lot obviously based on what you are trying to achieve, but I like to break things down into 4 major groups: Arms & Armor, Magic, Alchemy, and Mundane.

    Arms & Armor is pretty self explanatory I think, making any kind of weapon or armor fits here.

    Magic is a bit more broad-ranging, but in general it's stuff like enchanting weapons or creating items that have specific spell-like effects, such as a ring that lets you use Burning Hands 3 times per day.

    Alchemy is sort-of similar to magic but it's for all the potions, poisons, antidotes, oils, unguents, and maybe some other stuff like creating golems.

    And then Mundane is literally everything else.
    Now in the real world the skill with which a person makes a cooking pot, a piano, and some candles are not all the same, but for game purposes the PCs don't really care about any of that, which is why it all gets lumped together.
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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Knitifine View Post
    There is already a rule for that in Pathfinder Unchained.

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/background-skills/
    That's actually something I really like- the "background" idea as a base for crafting. I realize that the connection between slaying monsters and attaining new skills is sometimes a bit odd, but I think there's an even greater disconnect between adventuring and crafting than normal. A big part of this is because crafting is stuff you normally do outside of combat, yet it's supposed to help you IN combat. Aside, perhaps, from making a trap for an ambush, I'm hard-pressed to think of any ways crafting could directly help in most of dungeon.

    Ideally I'd have an entirely separate system that didn't eat up your level-up resources (or did so in a minimal matter). For first level characters, I'd probably say "no crafting skills at all", and if the party has some downtime at some point, let someone pick it up then. For example, if you've got a few weeks in town while the Wizard researches new spells and the Bard investigates what the next plot-hook is going to be, let the Fighter find a tutor and learn how to make himself some nifty new gear.

    For starting out with higher level characters, I don't exactly want everyone to pick up a craft free of charge, but maybe I'd offer the option of something like trading 1 level or a portion of your wealth for level-appropriate crafting skills. Fluff-wise, this represents the time you spend learning and honing your art while your fellow party members were off slaying zombies or whatever. If a character thinks they'll have time to make use of it at some point, then let them make the trade-off for a slight reduction in combat power.

    That's my 2cp anyhow.
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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    I do like the idea of free 'background' points to distribute and that definately aleviates some of the problems. But that wasn't exactly what I was going for. Just look at the example given by the page itself. Craft (Blacksmthing) can be used with a +5 to the DC to craft any Armor or Weapon that Craft (Armorsmith) or Craft (Weaponsmith) can. So why not do away with Craft (Armorsmith) and Craft (Weaponsmith) and just have Craft (Blacksmith or Smith)? You're grouping craft skills that are already so interrelated as to be the same into one craft...
    Last edited by AOKost; 2017-08-22 at 05:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    Quote Originally Posted by AOKost View Post
    I do like the idea of free 'background' points to distribute and that definately aleviates some of the problems. But that wasn't exactly what I was going for. Just look at the example given by the page itself. Craft (Blacksmthing) can be used with a +5 to the DC to craft any Armor or Weapon that Craft (Armorsmith) or Craft (Weaponsmith) can. So why not do away with Craft (Armorsmith) and Craft (Weaponsmith) and just have Craft (Blacksmith or Smith)? You're grouping craft skills that are already so interrelated as to be the same into one craft...
    Yeah I'm definitely in favour of this idea. Maybe go by material (e.g. Craft (metal), Craft (wood) etc), or even broader categories (like Craft (artwork) (including everything from sculpture to painting to poetry), Craft (builder) (including everything from woodworking to stonework to digging ditches etc.)) etc.

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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    Personally, if I was overhauling Crafting skills, I'd actually overhaul the entire system's wealth scaling along with it. This is because I'd want Profession and Craft to be similar in raw gold production. Well, I'd have Craft produce goods with worth similar to Profession's income, but that's before sales losses over market price, material costs and such. Ideally, the typical situation should be a 1/3 advantage on raw gold for Profession.

    I'd also have mundane crafting be worth a damn, because it's insulting that there's no rules for blowing 50,000 GP on a really damn good sword that was made by a really damn good smith without bringing magic into it. To keep it distinct, magic can be the wonky stuff. Mundane crafting can be simply a really goddamn good item. Just normal item statistics bloated up to crazy-land. 5d6 damage and 11-20 x5 crit kind of crazy-land. Basic weapon statistics being all on the mundane side, with magic methods, if present, being clearly less cost-effective outside edge cases or only after extensive mundane improvement. Keen being expensive enough that it's only worth it once you're past 16-20 crit range, Impact being clearly inferior unless the weapon already has 4d6 damage and so on.

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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    Quote Originally Posted by AOKost View Post
    I do like the idea of free 'background' points to distribute and that definately aleviates some of the problems. But that wasn't exactly what I was going for. Just look at the example given by the page itself. Craft (Blacksmthing) can be used with a +5 to the DC to craft any Armor or Weapon that Craft (Armorsmith) or Craft (Weaponsmith) can. So why not do away with Craft (Armorsmith) and Craft (Weaponsmith) and just have Craft (Blacksmith or Smith)? You're grouping craft skills that are already so interrelated as to be the same into one craft...
    I've got no problem with that- my Arms & Armor category not only includes all the smithing but also some Craft(bowmaker) and Craft(leather armor) and stuff like that. Of course since Craft(Mundane) is a separate category my hypothetical smith might be able to make a legendary sword and still have no idea how to shoe a horse. I'm actually alright with that too, though. I don't think a little weirdness is bad in a system that's fun and mostly balanced.

    My only objection with utterly-free background bonuses that have tangible in-game benefits is how do you keep players from going overboard with them? Even with that I said before I kind of feel better about a system that costs you SOMETHING to have the ability to craft level-appropriate (or even slightly-above) gear. With a little market-group feedback, we should be able to find something that's feasible.

    Have you ever heard of the Flaws (and traits) from unearthed Arcana? Traits are explicitly called out as a shorthand way to get started at rollplaying, and let you trade small buffs for small penalties assoicated with some characteristic, like Abrasive: +1 to Intimidate, -1 to Bluff & Diplomacy. Flaws are larger penalties (-3 to reflex save, -1 to AC, etc) in exchange for any feat of your choice. I know some people think they are kind of cheesy and only minmaxers use them, but I think you could work them in here fairly easily.

    For example, if your campaign is starting at level 1, offer players the choice of trading 1 flaw for some basic skill in crafting. If you are starting above level 1, you might give them an option of getting level-appropriate crafting skill in exchange for one of the following: 2 flaws, OR 15% of your wealth-by-level, OR trade 1 of your class levels for 1 level of the commoner NPC class.

    I've never tested out anything like this in-game, but at first glance it seems like the options might be attractive to at least some players.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2017-08-22 at 08:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    Personally, if I was overhauling Crafting skills, I'd actually overhaul the entire system's wealth scaling along with it.
    The existing WBL system is kinda bjorked, I agree, but I think it rests on two main assumptions that may not be entirely accurate. First, that because it says a creature gives X loot when killed, it means EVERY encounter with said creature will give the same loot. And second, that players will "grind" (and the GMs will let them) for loot with which to buy overpowered gear. In order to prevent this, the equipment is 3.5 was priced such as to make grinding for the next level of gear against weak enemies inefficient to the point of pointlessness.

    I believe in rule zero, of course, that the GM has total control over the gameworld, but some players (and GMs) will take the printed text as gospel and raise holy-hell over any deviation from the norm. Personally, if I thought my players were attempting to "grind" I'd say that they've already looted everything in the area and all that they are doing now is wandering around the woods, occasionally encountering a wild animal (that obviously is carrying nothing of value) and wasting everyone's time, and that *hint* *hint* they should move on to the next part of the plot.
    Not everyone is comfortable with that style of play though.

    Also, I've never been a fan of the magic-mart style of worldbuilding where everything ever printed is available for sale just because a player wants it. I built a world that supports it, to a degree, but I've always preferred a system that awards loot or allows characters to build/create/buy upgrades on an appropriate-as-needed basis. That, however, takes more work. There's only so many times you can pull the "oh look a previous adventuring group all happened to die right here and leave their slightly-better-than-what-you've-got-gear lying around" gambit so many times before it gets stale. For me, a crafting system is most effective at the point where you players start to outlevel the world around them, and need some other method of of upgrading besides heading to the local market with a dragon's-hoard worth of gold and just buying it. Obviously this isn't the only possibility- sidequests to tracks down a specific treasure or locate a legendary craftsmen can provide a nice break in drama sometimes, but I like to have options.

    I'd also have mundane crafting be worth a damn, because it's insulting that there's no rules for blowing 50,000 GP on a really damn good sword that was made by a really damn good smith without bringing magic into it. To keep it distinct, magic can be the wonky stuff. Mundane crafting can be simply a really goddamn good item. Just normal item statistics bloated up to crazy-land. 5d6 damage and 11-20 x5 crit kind of crazy-land.
    I totally agree. I never got around to posting my weapons-fix, but I've got an,
    armor-upgrade system that I think fits the bill of what you're looking for. I feel like sometimes the writers of 3.5 designed magic all the way up to epic levels, but got bored with more mundane stuff because "it wasn't realistic" and stopped caring about the Fighter and Rogue once they got past 5th level.


    P.S. If you're really interested in a similar fix for weapons, let me know and maybe I'll find the motivation to construct the giant table(s) necessary to display everything.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2017-08-22 at 09:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    I completely agree that the Crafting system sucks Cheff's Chocolate Salty Balls. There's already a system in place that can allow equipment to be 'upgraded', sometimes after it's been made too. There's plenty of official 1st and 2nd party templates that can be added to equipment, not to mention 3rd party that can be completely too OP to begin to use. I've come across a few Crafting revamps that were pretty amazing.

    I've got a thread on here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...irt-2-varients) that covers some of them, but they are primarily all official, printed materials (out of official 1st and 2nd party books, and some from 3rd party d20 sources like Green Ronins books in their Advanced series). It's completely possible to craft a mundane piece of equipment that will cost 100,000+ GP. The above is a perfect example.

    I know very well about traits, and flaws. I use them every chance I get. My characters are almost always crafters. I used to love playing Artificer, but started to find them a little lacking in ways. I love the bonuses they get to reducing crafting time & money, as well as the bonuses to Craft checks for everything and all the bonus Crafting feats (though it doesn't give every crafting feat like it should, being the entire basis behind the classes concept), but I found I would gladly trade their selection of Infusions for Eldritch Blast and Invocations. I (in conjunction with my DM at the time) homebrewed a Warlock. We moved Imbue Item (Imbue Item (Su): A warlock of 12th level or higher can use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he does not know the spells required to make an item (although he must know the appropriate item creation feat). He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for arcane spells or 25 + spell level for divine spells) in place of a required spell he doesn't know or can't cast. If the check succeeds, the warlock can create the item as if he had cast the required spell. If it fails, he cannot complete the item.) to first level so that I could be a crafter and not be a detriment to the party. (I hate most of the Infusions that Artificers have.) And even with such characters, I would always take Treats and Flaws not just to MinMax but because I love crafting in games, and will even start crafting guild houses and merchant trade routes given the chance, but that's often more than most GMs are willing to get into. I've transfered this modification to the Avowed playtest class to great effect. I love the feel of it!

    Another aspect of Crafting I love is that it's simple and easy enough to say that to learn a specific template, one would have to find someone that knows how to make it and get them to teach them how to make it. This might not always be possible though, due to some templates being of ancient design and techniques long forgotten. There's a class in The Book of Hallowed Might II called The Hammer of Urgan. (Urgan is a Dwarven Crafting Deity like Moridan) that gets some nifty bonuses, and abilities, as well as templates that can be added to items. But to become a Hammer of Urgan, you have to travel to his home in a huge cave complex that's well hidden, and then craft an item worth 10,000 gp to be accepted as a disciple... I always loved that kind of thing. Not only are you going on a relatively minor quest for someone to learn something useful for the party, but afterward, that character can craft some truly marvelous items...

    I'm not trying to get into a huge overhaul of the Crafting system, I'm primarily just looking at using the basic idea rferries suggested. Have a Craft (Smith) that covers virtually all metals in one fell swoop. If one wanted to make anything out of Leather, then they would need Craft (Leatherworker) that would include Craft (Tanner) and all similar Crafts. Likewise, Craft (Woodworker) would be used to craft everything from Bows to weaving Baskets.

    I wouldn't combine Craft (Gemcutting) with Craft (Stonework or Mason) though... Precious jewels require much more specific skills to work than cracking and shaping regular stone.

    Now, it is true that one need not actually have any Craft skills to make magical items, but if one wants to have every template possible on the same item, then they will likely have to do it themselves...

    The primary reasons for this condensing is, as I've previously stated, to help characters have 'npc' skills, because they should be spending their skill points on more important skills than 'background' skills. Perception, Stealth, Diplomacy, Bluff, Heal, and many others are much more important than Appraise, Craft, Profession, Perform, etc. One is not likely to use these on an adventure, except occasionally Perform if you're a bard... or Profession (Sailor) if you're setting is primarily based on boats/ships...

    Background skills give so much depth to a character, and it's sad that they don't get to invest in them near as much as they probably otherwise would in a more realistic world setting... one can't always be an adventurer... I really appreciated the idea of 2 extra skill points every level for every character to invest specifically into Appraise, Craft (Any), Handle Animal, Knowledge (Engineering, Geography, History & Nobility), Linguistics, Perform (Any) and Profession (Any). It's likely that a character would invest in the same 2 over and over again (such as Knowledge (Engineer), and Profession (Engineer), or Craft (Smith) and Profession (Merchant)).
    Last edited by AOKost; 2017-08-23 at 02:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    @ Deepbluediver I've reviewed the link you posted about upgrading armors, and I like it! I'll probably incorporate something similar into my templates. I hope you don't mind. I copied it to my personal doc already, with notation as to where I got it XD

    @ rferries Found something new to tinker with XD

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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    Quote Originally Posted by AOKost View Post
    @ Deepbluediver I've reviewed the link you posted about upgrading armors, and I like it! I'll probably incorporate something similar into my templates. I hope you don't mind.
    Not at all! I wouldn't post if I didn't want people to take my ideas and homebrew them further. A fair amount of the stuff I do is actually based on other people's ideas as well. When I was more active I'd try to say where I get the inspiration for everything, but these days a lot of it just gets lost in the sheer volume of sources I've thrown into my cooking pot.

    If I can find the motivation maybe I'll see about getting a rought draft of my weapon fix posted. I actually have another thread with the initial idea floating around somewhere, but the table broke during the great forums upgrade of 2015 and it's basically unreadable now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Not at all! I wouldn't post if I didn't want people to take my ideas and homebrew them further. A fair amount of the stuff I do is actually based on other people's ideas as well. When I was more active I'd try to say where I get the inspiration for everything, but these days a lot of it just gets lost in the sheer volume of sources I've thrown into my cooking pot.

    If I can find the motivation maybe I'll see about getting a rought draft of my weapon fix posted. I actually have another thread with the initial idea floating around somewhere, but the table broke during the great forums upgrade of 2015 and it's basically unreadable now.
    I understand all too well! XD

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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    Quote Originally Posted by AOKost View Post
    @ Deepbluediver I've reviewed the link you posted about upgrading armors, and I like it! I'll probably incorporate something similar into my templates. I hope you don't mind. I copied it to my personal doc already, with notation as to where I got it XD
    I was inspired to FINALLY get around and post the parner-piece, a similar upgrade system for weapons, which I've been tinkering on-and-off with for years. I just never got around to making the giant chart(s) necessary until this afternoon.

    If you liked the armor-fix, check out this one, too, and let me know what you think: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...2#post22339292
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    I've merged Craft skills into the following:

    • Craft (metal)
    • Craft (leather) includes soft leather, cuir bouilli, cloth and feather-working
    • Craft (wood) includes wooden tool/implements and carpentry
    • Craft (stone) includes stone tools, masonry, brick-making, glass, and pottery



    Yes, some of these are rather broad. The PCs are supposed to be heroic after all. I have a few more to cover industrial and later tech levels.
    Last edited by Ashtagon; 2017-08-31 at 05:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
    I've merged Craft skills into the following:

    • Craft (metal)
    • Craft (leather) includes soft leather, cuir bouilli, cloth and feather-working
    • Craft (wood) includes wooden tool/implements and carpentry
    • Craft (stone) includes stone tools, masonry, brick-making, glass, and pottery



    Yes, some of these are rather broad. The PCs are supposed to be heroic after all. I have a few more to cover industrial and later tech levels.
    Thanks! Just the kind of imput I was looking for!

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    Default Re: Condensing a few Crafting skills... 3.PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    I was inspired to FINALLY get around and post the parner-piece, a similar upgrade system for weapons, which I've been tinkering on-and-off with for years. I just never got around to making the giant chart(s) necessary until this afternoon.

    If you liked the armor-fix, check out this one, too, and let me know what you think: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...2#post22339292
    Just checked it out and I love it! I'll give you a more detailed writeup later lol

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