OOTS #328 - The Discussion Thread

[Otterella]

Hmm... I guess Roy's sword didn't end up taking on the "glows in the presence of undead" property from the starmetal after all. That's too bad, I think he was rather excited by that possibility.

The side jokes during the lead in and setup worked better than the punchline panel, but it's still a very enjoyable comic. :)

I thought of this, too, but then I figured it must be only in battle. The sword would "know", in a manner of speaking, that the undead in question were not threatening.

[Corylus]

What a total disappointment. I was all ready for some play off the big romance which would have been bad enough but the last panel just beggars belief.

[carmachu]

Wow, remember when some of us complained that the comic was bogged down in the Haley plot and wasnt that good?

I'd rather have that back than this comic. Ugh.

[neriana]

Sigh.......
In the English languge the male form is used when you don't know the gender of the person you are talking about.

No, it's not. "His or her" or "her or his" is used. French and other languages resort to the male form, English does not grammatically.

I liked the comic, though Roy's blood pressure made me go "muh?" Either he's about to drop dead or the undead do use a different measuring system than we do.

[The Glitter Ninja]

I have nothing to say here, except a BP of 85/60 is really, really low, especially the systolic. The diastolic of 60, not so worrying, but still a problem.

[geez3r]

I would like to just comment on the blood pressure deal people keep bring up. They are wondering how Roy's pulse and blood pressure is so low. I think I may have the answer. The Con ability represents a character's health and stamina. We also know that Roy claims to have alot of hitpoints. We know that fighters do indeed get alot of hp from their nice d10 HD, but was if ROy has alot of Hp by even fighter standards? By that idea, Roy would have a high Con score, and there by being in peak physical health. Lance Armstrong, quiet frankly the guy with the most stamina on the planet (he rides his bike in the mountains for 2 weeks and averages 30 mph), has a very slow heart rate, but his heart moves alot more blood per beat than the average human.

If, for reasons unknown, you do not wish to admit that Roy has a higher than average Con, I have a second theory. A fighter's best friend, aside from his weapon, is his armor- his heavy armor. As an adventurer, Roy moves around (and as we've seen mostly on foot) with heavy metal objects weighing him down, you're going to be in good shape if you do that for a few weeks, let alone months or years.

Oh yeah, Great comic Giant.

[zibeck]

Can I play doctor with Haley?

[ElfLad]

No, it's not. "His or her" or "her or his" is used. French and other languages resort to the male form, English does not grammatically.

I liked the comic, though Roy's blood pressure made me go "muh?" Either he's about to drop dead or the undead do use a different measuring system than we do.

Nope. I took a grammar class last year and our teacher specifically told us that the male pronoun was used in uncertain cases, and that "his or her" was grammatically incorrect.

[fwiffo]

Nope. I took a grammar class last year and our teacher specifically told us that the male pronoun was used in uncertain cases, and that "his or her" was grammatically incorrect.

It might be gramatically incorrect but it is politically correct.

[BelkarsDagger]

Gaaah! Test of the Heart! I get it now! D'oh! But still a really big anticlimax...

[Durin]

*Run's orange zergling over with a jeep*

Awww boss looks like you done ran over some poor fellers dog.

Thats a zerglin' lester smaller type o' zerg

[t0rp0r]

It might be gramatically incorrect but it is politically correct.

Just an interesting little article on the subject:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=he

When I worked as a reporter, this was a very hotly argued topic, especially as our city editor was a woman and didn't agree with the idea that you could use "he" as a gender nuetral pronoun in every case, for example, in the sentence "He just gave birth to a baby." Of course, my argument would be that if you're making that statement it is assumed you're talking about a female even if you're not stating so.

But, regardless, I'll tend to say he/she in casual writing just to avoid confusion, and in formal writing I'll just do anything possible to avoid the situation altogether! :)

[charik]

'They' also has a centuries-long history as a 3rd person singular indefinite pronoun in English. The only reason it's not 'proper' English is because the Grammarians forced a Latin grammar on a fundamentally Germanic language.

As to the lack of a glow on Roy's sword, I put that down to the sword being 'at rest' rather than 'in use'. I'll have to go back and look to see if it's sheathed or in his hands.

[fwiffo]

Just an interesting little article on the subject:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=he

When I worked as a reporter, this was a very hotly argued topic, especially as our city editor was a woman and didn't agree with the idea that you could use "he" as a gender neutral pronoun in every case, for example, in the sentence "He just gave birth to a baby."

The general rule that I was taught is that if it is unknown which gender person is, and there is a similar chance that person is a man or a woman, you use "he" or "him". Or maybe the sentence applies to people in general, so it doesn't matter what gender is.

"My boss is keeping me late at work". "So, tell him you need to go"
"You got a referral to Dr Jones, call his office to make an appointment"
"Yeah, I flamed molonel, but he flamed me first"
"He who hesitates is lost"

Sometimes there are exceptions, where you can assume that a person is a woman even if you don't know, like maybe if you talk about a nurse or secretary; but those are rare.

The thing is that a reasonable woman would not get insulted or upset if you apply the masculine pronoun, as long as there is sufficient reason to believe that you didn't know it was a woman, since masculine pronoun is also gender-neutral in many contexts. But a politically correct woman might be upset.

But, regardless, I'll tend to say he/she in casual writing just to avoid confusion, and in formal writing I'll just do anything possible to avoid the situation altogether! :)

Well, you end up torturing the language one way or another. He/she is a horrible constuction, and trying to rephrase your sentences to avoid gender identification leads to far worse sentence flow. Like, for example: "Let him or her who is without sin cast the first stone" or "He or she who hesitates is lost". Uugily.

P.S. And that usage note in the page at dictionary.com is completely silly.

Anyway.... back to the comic. :)

[denelian]

on the grammer issue - i think that we need to relearn the germanic "he/she/it", "der/die/das" which comes out to "male/female/neuter"

on the blood pressure...

i know, when i was in the hospital a loooooooooong time ago, they freaked when my BP droped to 80/60. i don't care how good your CON is.

other than that... it was the anticlimax that made this one great *G*

edit:ps - Giant (Rich), i was at Origins, working (i run the Show Office) and the only time i got to your booth you were gone. it made me sad :( but, erm, hi?

[t0rp0r]

Sometimes there are exceptions, where you can assume that a person is a woman even if you don't know, like maybe if you talk about a nurse or secretary; but those are rare.


:)

I'd say it's a pretty good bet not to assume either of these are females either, of course (which might be why National Secretary's Day was changed to National Administrative Assistant's Week ;) )

Yes, he/she is a butchery, which is why I only use it informally, of course. But that's the whole point, isn't it? No matter which path you choose you're bound to be condemnded, either as a sexist, a PC thug, a grammatical purist incapable of adapting to modern thinking, or something else.

Some authors (the most recent one I read was Cesar Milan in his book Cesar's Way, though I'm sure there are others) have taken the step of alternating usage back and forth (Cesar uses "he" one chapter then "she" the next). I seem to remember a lot of the RPG rulebooks use "she" as the gender-neutral term ...

Anyway, as you also said, back to the comic, poste-haste!!! ;D

[yuccadude]

Looking back at the comic where they meet the Magic Mouth tm, I hope Roy doesn't develop rickets...cause Roy and Durkon already have the memory loss associated with visiting the Oracle...

I wonder if the crown from that Roy got from Xykon could be affecting the blood pressure reading...

[neriana]

Nope. I took a grammar class last year and our teacher specifically told us that the male pronoun was used in uncertain cases, and that "his or her" was grammatically incorrect.

Your teacher is incorrect. While it may be slightly more awkward, "his or her" is proper. Actually, people seem to be tilting toward using the female construction about 50% of the time and the male construction the other 50%. It is too bad we don't have an equivalent to the German neuter though.

[roguemomof7]

>:( Aaaaargh! Attack of the ninja mutant politically correct grammar fiends!

Now, children, for all of you who have given up on this because you get so much grief from so many people on so many sides of this so silly question:

Write the sentence so you don't have to use an indeterminate "his". Much of the time this is actually preferable, since it forces you to use an "active" rather than "passive" voice. If you need to use a pronoun for an gender-indeterminate person, for God's sake use "his" or "him" or "he" and let's just all get over it. The historical roots of the use of the male pronoun go back so far that it's pointless to try to fix it now. Just use it, it sounds fine, no one will be bothered by it but a few poor souls looking for something to get upset about.

We now return you to your originally scheduled broadcast:

Great comic! My son fell over laughing when he got to the last panel, he was so surprised by it! Keep up the good work, Giant!

Note appropriate and unequivicable use of proper gender-specific pronoun.

[VariaVespasa]

As to the lack of a glow on Roy's sword, I put that down to the sword being 'at rest' rather than 'in use'. I'll have to go back and look to see if it's sheathed or in his hands.

Irrelevant- the smith said it would *likely* (not guaranteed) have the property of SOMETIMES doing the energy thing. He in no way said or suggested it would ALWAYS glow around undead. He said it would probably sometimes glow anytime, and that it would be particularly harmful to undead. And thats ALL he said. In practice it may well manifest (if it ever does) as a random chance of an effect every time he hits an undead in combat, and of course he hasnt fought anything undead with it yet. So hold yer horses.

*Hugs*
Varia

[Antina]

Irrelevant- the smith said it would *likely* (not guaranteed) have the property of SOMETIMES doing the energy thing. He in no way said or suggested it would ALWAYS glow around undead. He said it would probably sometimes glow anytime, and that it would be particularly harmful to undead. And thats ALL he said. In practice it may well manifest (if it ever does) as a random chance of an effect every time he hits an undead in combat, and of course he hasnt fought anything undead with it yet. So hold yer horses.

*Hugs*
Varia

"HE" ???
Just not to start THIS again ;)

The smith is a cross-dresser ? ;)

[Dags]

Your teacher is incorrect. While it may be slightly more awkward, "his or her" is proper. Actually, people seem to be tilting toward using the female construction about 50% of the time and the male construction the other 50%. It is too bad we don't have an equivalent to the German neuter though.

Just curious... wher did you get YOUR Teaching Crdentials? Trust the professionals.

[okpokalypse]

Most often, to avoid the inherent problem of gender identification when using 'he' or 'she,' one should refer to the use of 'one' as a gender-neutral identifier. Especially when gender is a non-issue or abstract within the statement.

"One could become out of sorts in this conversation."

"One who desires, but does not act, breeds pestilence."

"Misplacing one's keys, the teenager had to climb through the window to get inside the house."

The above style of speech has been used by philosophers who have understood the need for gender-neutral identification for hundreds of years. In my post-grad work it was stressed that we should employ such style whenever we abstracted the gender of our examples.

When referring to something concretely - such as an animal or tree - with an unidentified or absent gender definition, using the "it" identifier is commonly acceptable.

[okpokalypse]

Your teacher is incorrect. While it may be slightly more awkward, "his or her" is proper. Actually, people seem to be tilting toward using the female construction about 50% of the time and the male construction the other 50%. It is too bad we don't have an equivalent to the German neuter though.

You're definitely correct when you state that many are using the 50% / 50% use of either "his" or "hers", "he" or "she" and "him" and "her" independently. Look at the WotC material for D&D that gets put out. One Base Class will entirely refer to a male identifier, while another is female. They have a gender split of identified characters, about 50-50, to keep the balance.

However, I've rarely found literature that states "him or her" - unless it's been a poorly written instruction manual :). And I've never heard of that being the proper use of abstract gender identification. I've actually learned it as just the opposite - as the use of "it" or "one" should be used to preserve ambiguous gender.

[SteveMB]

Ahem: He/She just kind of swore to kill Belkar as soon as possible!

True. (It didn't bother Belkar, because he's too sociopathic to care except insofar as having his intentions known might interfere with carrying them out.)

[sbwilson]

Heh...a blood pressure test. At least it wasn't one of those "Turn your head and cough" tests. :o

[Arin]

Y'know what just occured to me? I think we found the reason why Xykon doesn't go to the Oracle, he can't pass the test of the Heart. :)

[Felinoid]

Personally, I prefer using "s/he" in writing. It's not as awkward as "him or her" or "he or she", and doesn't have the exclusion of picking just one. I've even found I'm able to say it by adding a sibiliant before "he", but in speaking I do tend to default to just plain "he".

I would guess that this is likely the case of grammar changing to fit the society (it's not like it hasn't happened before). We live in a more PC society, and the grammar changes to stay in line with it.

[Kanashimi]

ooh! Sibilant! that's a quarter word! :)

[jaded_empath]

I wonder if the crown from that Roy got from Xykon could be affecting the blood pressure reading...

!!! Oooooooh; nice idea - maybe he's gradually being cursed by it?


But there's NO argument that any CON score would NOT have an individual in good condition (max HP) with such a low BP.

Yes, Lance Armstrong has a low PULSE when he cycles, because his efficient heart pumps a lot of blood with one beat and thusly has to beat fewer times than mine would to get the bike travelling the same speed. Ergo, he has a lower working pulse than I do.

But his working blood pressure would still be higher than the regular resting BP. At about 85mmHg systolic, the human heart wouldn't be able to push fresh blood all the way to the extremities of an adult human body - Roy would be having cold, numb hands and feet, and a pale complexion.

Sorry if you wish to disagree on this point but it's not even human physiology anymore, it's just basic physics now - if you don't push that door with enough force, it's not going to close all the way.

My point is: it's wrong, big deal; get over it. :P I personally don't let a *trivial* gaffe of technical specifics get in the way of an enjoyable comic.


(Long, tangential annecdote follows: An eon ago I wrote a story with a similar issue - one of the characters is faint, burning up with fever and a friend who's a med student comes over and realizes the severity of this condition precludes transport to a hospital; they have to bring down the 'patient's' temperature NOW to prevent...well, DEATH. My flub was to quote a reading of 117 degrees Farenheit. The "Medical Experts" immediately called me out on this, and provided me with info to correct it; I did so, since none of these people were available to me before I posted the story. :) Some people still nit-picked over the error that no longer existed, while others were kind enough to suggest a correct temp that would still require the medico to declare "No, we don't have time to wait for an ambulance - we have to cool him off NOW.")