LGBTAI+ Question and Discussion Thread IV: [Citation Needed]

[Razade]

Okay, guys, at some point bringing up that you're not able to have kids, when the relationship turns serious, reasonable thing to bring up. Meanwhile, if you want kids that badly that it is a make-or-break thing in your relationship, why the boop didn't you bring it up first? Why is the burden on me to disclose I can't?

It's on both of you.

Full stop.

[Delta]

It's on both of you.

Full stop.

This. I never implied anything else. Of course if having kids is so important for you, you should disclose that just as well.

I honestly don't care who brings it up first, I just feel like if the topic comes up, outright lying about being able to have kids when you know you don't is a really bad thing.

[Florian]

Yes, why ever must the person who is unable to do so have to tell their partner, rather than their partner volunteering that they wanna have kids first? Kids can be used to trap a girl in a 'ship. Once you got kids then your partner may wanna be a permanent part of your life. So digression aside: Once your partner wanna have kids they should say it so I can say, 'no' and we can get on with our lives. Even though I wish dearly I could still have kids.

Unspoken laws of our society with very deep roots in our biology.

It deems that most people have a problem who facing their own death and carrying on their fiscal as well as biological legacy gives them a certain feeling of immortality, with the (biological) downside being that the reverse will remain them of the futility of what they do.

Kitty, there´s way around it: All I/we/you have partnered up while potentially having had a good life and possibly good sex will end, making it either meaningless or hedonistic, because we're not trained to just sell (example: company) and spent the rest of our days from the gain, that being termed egoistic.

[Chen]

For any of this disclosure type stuff there's risks going both ways. Disclosing early could result in the person breaking off the relationship either due to legitimate reason (e.g., I always wanted my own biological kids) or bigoted reasons (e.g., you're bixsexual? Eww we're done). If you don't disclose early you may avoid this as once people are in a relationship some of these initial deal-breakers can soften and be dealt with due to the relationship itself. However, late disclosure (or revelation by some other means) can lead to feelings of betrayal at NOT having been told earlier. This can therefore risk breaking the relationship up at that point.

So really either way there are risk. Personally I prefer the early disclosure method so I don't end up wasting my time in a relationship that may blow up in my face later. But to each their own in that regard.

[Sahe]

I mean, I personally don't really have the option of not disclosing I'm trans the moment I meet someone. At least if I want to be seen as anything but a man, because I pass about as well as I did the exam I wrote the day after I realized I'm trans (barely, but only with a lot of good will and while squinting from a 100 meters away).

I feel like this won't even get much better even as I go further along my path of transition, because I'm not really all that interested in presenting super feminine. A lot of feminine clothing just isn't for me and I still haven't found any interest in figuring out make up. (Also I'm still not really sold on the trans pride colors...did we really have to go with baby blue and pink? Really? But then again I'm not really all that impressed with a lot of the pride flag designs I've seen.)

But I guess since I'm a lesbian the biological kids thing wouldn't really come up with a potential partner...I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. Not that I have a lot of experience there, or any experience.

[sneakykitten]

Unspoken laws of our society with very deep roots in our biology.

It deems that most people have a problem who facing their own death and carrying on their fiscal as well as biological legacy gives them a certain feeling of immortality, with the (biological) downside being that the reverse will remain them of the futility of what they do.

Kitty, there´s way around it: All I/we/you have partnered up while potentially having had a good life and possibly good sex will end, making it either meaningless or hedonistic, because we're not trained to just sell (example: company) and spent the rest of our days from the gain, that being termed egoistic.

I'm not sure what you're saying, 'Ppls who are afraid of death want kids?' 'Don't be a hooker and sell your company?' I appreciate the efforts you put into your response though. And what's hedonistic about a relationship with mutually satisfying good sex? I guess it is in the literal sense of the word, if you're only in it for self-pleasure, yet pleasuring two ppls isn't hedonistic is it? Ah, I'm confused, ah ha. :P

[Heliomance]

I feel like this won't even get much better even as I go further along my path of transition, because I'm not really all that interested in presenting super feminine. A lot of feminine clothing just isn't for me and I still haven't found any interest in figuring out make up.

Hormones are basically magic. If you go on HRT, that will do a hell of a lot towards helping you pass. Hormones, facial hair removal, and working on your voice will let most people pass if you didn't start transition super late in life.

[Sahe]

Hormones are basically magic. If you go on HRT, that will do a hell of a lot towards helping you pass. Hormones, facial hair removal, and working on your voice will let most people pass if you didn't start transition super late in life.

Oh I know, I've been on HRT for about 6 month now and will soon start to get rid of that stupid pesky stuff in my face.

I am 27, so not super late and I'm blessed with my mother's face, which makes it easier.

Still I am quite tall 186 cm (which is like 6'1'' or however you write that for you Americans) and I have fairly broad shoulders, or at least I feel like I have. Clothing wise I wear the same stuff as always and I'm not even feeling really dysphoric about that. The only, very recent additions are two different flannel shirts (yeah, yeah I know stereotypical lesbian clothing, blah,blah) which I absolutely love.

I'm not saying I'm never going to pass and it is gonna get better (especially once the face stuff is gone), but I have a feeling that unless I change my mind about some things I'll always have to deal with misgendering simply because of how I dress and my height and I'm actually ok with that.

[Razade]

Unspoken laws of our society with very deep roots in our biology.

It deems that most people have a problem who facing their own death and carrying on their fiscal as well as biological legacy gives them a certain feeling of immortality, with the (biological) downside being that the reverse will remain them of the futility of what they do.

Kitty, there´s way around it: All I/we/you have partnered up while potentially having had a good life and possibly good sex will end, making it either meaningless or hedonistic, because we're not trained to just sell (example: company) and spent the rest of our days from the gain, that being termed egoistic.

There's just so much here to unpack. It's nice to know that you think that people who can't have kids/don't want kids but still want a relationship are at best simply chasing pleasure and self indulgence and at worst are just wasting their time.

[Heliomance]

Oh I know, I've been on HRT for about 6 month now and will soon start to get rid of that stupid pesky stuff in my face.

I am 27, so not super late and I'm blessed with my mother's face, which makes it easier.

Still I am quite tall 186 cm (which is like 6'1'' or however you write that for you Americans) and I have fairly broad shoulders, or at least I feel like I have. Clothing wise I wear the same stuff as always and I'm not even feeling really dysphoric about that. The only, very recent additions are two different flannel shirts (yeah, yeah I know stereotypical lesbian clothing, blah,blah) which I absolutely love.

I'm not saying I'm never going to pass and it is gonna get better (especially once the face stuff is gone), but I have a feeling that unless I change my mind about some things I'll always have to deal with misgendering simply because of how I dress and my height and I'm actually ok with that.

I also used to feel that I had really noticeably broad shoulders. While it's still occasionally a problem in terms of women's shirts not fitting right around the shoulders, the changes in fat distribution from HRT have really made them a lot less noticeable in general - they don't look obviously masculine any more.

[Florian]

There's just so much here to unpack. It's nice to know that you think that people who can't have kids/don't want kids but still want a relationship are at best simply chasing pleasure and self indulgence and at worst are just wasting their time.

Please remember that I'm from a society with a heavy emphasis on the "generation contract" and how that stands in harsh contrast to individuality. My stance on how societies function and how individual life model fit into this is heavily influenced by that. (That's also why, for example, ongoing societal debates in the US can´t be transferred one-to-one to the EU).

Technically speaking, most EU-based societies have the "shared burden" model at their core, that only really works based on the "traditional" family model and reinforces that to keep functioning. Like the neoliberal business model, that's also a pyramid scheme based on limitless growth and only works when a follow-up generation can support the actual generation (which in turn supports and sustains the previous generation).

I´m an active member of a political party that actually cares about the social issues, so I actually know about the balance to be stroked between individuality and society as a whole.
So, yeah, I can see and understand both sides here, adding that UK/US situation is something that is definitely not wanted, so what to do? Milton Friedman once said, that you can either have open border or a functional social system. I´d actually expand that to that you can either have a focus on individuality or a social system.

[CWater]

@Florian: You make a reasonable sounding arguments, yet I quite disagree with a few of them. (I'm btw also an EU citizen, in case you're curious.) Still, while this is an interesting topic, it's sadly not something we can debate here.

[Razade]

Please remember that I'm from a society with a heavy emphasis on the "generation contract" and how that stands in harsh contrast to individuality. My stance on how societies function and how individual life model fit into this is heavily influenced by that. (That's also why, for example, ongoing societal debates in the US can´t be transferred one-to-one to the EU).

Bollocks, nonsense, pap. Not the latter part, the rest though. I have tons of friends (and co-workers) from similar (and even Berlin) areas and they seem to get individuality rather easily. Maybe you don't, can't speak to that, but it is not a "muh society" thing. It's a you thing, if a thing.

And even if it's a thing to you, families that don't have children still count outside Individuality as opposed to your proposed "Generation Contract". Individuality demands no shaking up, no tethering yourself down to some constructed ideal that you have to be married to be happy. Marriage is a union between people and it has loads of implications both political which we can't talk about and societal which don't really matter worth a damn.

None of that matters because you claimed that not having children invalidated a coupling as meaningless. You attributed it to unspoken laws of our society (which society), which...we can't really talk about here.

Not only that but what if I had kids outside of marriage? Does that make the kids useless? Why does marriage even enter into the equation at all? Especially since divorce in the Western World is around 40% on average.

A marriage isn't any more or less meaningful with or without kids. You apply the meaning. Individualism, societal grab bag. Whatever. Get out of here with that nonsense.

Technically speaking, most EU-based societies have the "shared burden" model at their core, that only really works based on the "traditional" family model and reinforces that to keep functioning. Like the neoliberal business model, that's also a pyramid scheme based on limitless growth and only works when a follow-up generation can support the actual generation (which in turn supports and sustains the previous generation).

So you assert. As if the United States is just this anarchic mess where our children are left dirty, poor and hungry on the streets because their moms and dads are out plying their trades in some rat infested den of sin. Your attempts at some deep philosophical point is wasted.

I´m an active member of a political party that actually cares about the social issues, so I actually know about the balance to be stroked between individuality and society as a whole.
So, yeah, I can see and understand both sides here, adding that UK/US situation is something that is definitely not wanted, so what to do? Milton Friedman once said, that you can either have open border or a functional social system. I´d actually expand that to that you can either have a focus on individuality or a social system.

This has literally nothing to do with what we were talking about. Immigration isn't just a topic we're not discussing (and really. Aren't because politics is bad news around here), it's not a topic that's relevant to how not having children invalidates a marriage.

I know you very much want to pull the melange of talking points in to bolster a fairly ill parsed statement, you seem desperate to actually address what you said after all, but I at least won't let you get away with it. You said it. It's your mud pit.

[2D8HP]

...ongoing societal debates in the US can´t be transferred one-to-one to the EU....

It wasn't until I worked 50 miles from home in the early 2000's, and especially in reading this Forum that I found that many "societal debates" that I though were settled in the '80's if not the '70's were "ongoing" and made me understand why so many youths from elsewhere come to live in tents on vacant lots and the sidewalks here.

What's with that?

[War_lord]

Yeah, no thanks, I'm in the EU and my attitude to reproduction is that it's bloody horrifying and I could never put a woman I loved through that to satisfy some nebulous "societal" expectation that I spawn runts. If, when I eventually get married, the woman I've met and married wants children, we'll adopt one. I find that the people who want to smear childfree folk are doing it to justify their own decisions as being some noble self sacrifice. I suspect they secretly don't want kids and are jealous of those who admit it.

And Florian, talking about the "EU" like it's some monolithic culture is just so bizarre, here in Ireland it's just a totally different mindset to say, Poland. From my encounters with people from the US on this board and elsewhere, there's a similar cultural diversity, and that's in a place far more tied together then Europe is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

here in Ireland it's just a totally different mindset to say, Poland.

"And I'm not slagging off the Poles. I'm Irish. I love the Poles. Although they've kinda stolen our act just a little bit, you know what I mean? Because they're cheaper than we are, they work harder and feck it they had a Pope, they're more Catholic than we ever were"

~Dara O'Briain, "Live in London", about a minute and a half in (1:46)

[sneakykitten]

I really really wanna polyamorous relationship yet I don't know how to go about it? If I tried to romance multiple partners without telling them that'd be dishonest. If I told them upfront they may leave. Difficult decisions. Though most of my partners have preferred... monogamy. :(

[137beth]

The difficulty is that you first have to find other people who are comfortable with polyamory, which not everyone is.

[Anymage]

I really really wanna polyamorous relationship yet I don't know how to go about it? If I tried to romance multiple partners without telling them that'd be dishonest. If I told them upfront they may leave. Difficult decisions. Though most of my partners have preferred... monogamy. :(

I just googled "spokane polyamory" and had five distinct links come up before you hit less immediately useful stuff like articles or general poly resources. The best way to get involved in polyamorous relationships is to get to know people who are already engaged in them.

Just as a word of advice, get to know people around the community before jumping into any relationships. Lots of people use poly as an excuse to be crummy partners. Knowing a fair number of people will help you get heads up about popular mistakes, both involving relationship styles and involving people it's not smart to get involved with.

[War_lord]

You really have to get over the whole "I don't want to tell them X thing up front" thing, if the thing in question is something that would stop them from either dating you or having physical relations with you, it's probably something they need to know before those things happen for consent reasons.

I'm not entirely sure what the difference between just dating people casually and being "polyamorous" is, given I always hear it in the context of either people who are single engaging in wish fulfillment dreams online Or horror stories where one person in a relationship badgered the other person into declaring the relationship "polyamorous" so that they could sleep around while ignoring their partner's obvious discomfort with the whole thing.

I'm sure that there's legitimate and loving relationships conducted within a polyamorous arrangement, it just seems like there's a lot of scope for bad situations.

[sneakykitten]

So look for peeps already in a poly 'ship? Cool. And War_lord I know I have some issues about telling ppls things but let me assure you I never like try to get physical with ppls up without consent. And your attitudes about polyamory are honestly: Insulting. It is not an excuse to play around on your partners. It is a legitimate lifestyle choice where all the partners love and support each other. So pls don't insult my lifestyle.

[Florian]

I really really wanna polyamorous relationship yet I don't know how to go about it? If I tried to romance multiple partners without telling them that'd be dishonest. If I told them upfront they may leave. Difficult decisions. Though most of my partners have preferred... monogamy. :(

You actually answer yourself, same as with any other minority. You want a polyamorous partnership, look out for polyamorous partners. How do you think the BDSM scene works? You're dom and you suddenly find dom-supportive non-dom/sub partners? Nah.

[War_lord]

It is not an excuse to play around on your partners. It is a legitimate lifestyle choice where all the partners love and support each other.

In theory it is. And I'm sure some people actually do manage to make it work. But you should be advised that there's a dark side to watch out for. I'm pretty sure there's poly people around here who'd tell you exactly what I am telling you.

[sneakykitten]

Coincidentally I also like BDSM Florian. Ah-ha. :P Got to look for some partners that share those interests then. Not sure how to ever bring the topic up though because I don't generally talk about those kinds of things. Unless I catch them doing bondage and whips or like dating and being committed to multiple ppls.

Duly noted War_lord but then almost everything has a dark side.

[Metalicana]

So if a straight person can come out as gay later in life why can't we do it the other way around?

[War_lord]

So if a straight person can come out as gay later in life why can't we do it the other way around?

Well, people have to come out as gay because heterosexuality is an assumed default that someone has to refute. There's not really a social assumption of gayness anywhere I can think of unless someone has previously declared themselves gay. And usually people don't come out as gay unless they're pretty sure they are because of the risks involved re: homophobic reactions from friends and family.

[Florian]

What's with that?

Differences in how we suppose societies work and the mechanisms to change that. It´s actually interesting to see how "conservative" vs. "progressive" political parties work, when there's a healthy political landscape, it´s actually more interesting to see how you need actual mass movements to influence all available sides and need to anticipate backlash when that healthy political landscape is not present.

[halfeye]

So if a straight person can come out as gay later in life why can't we do it the other way around?

It's not that simple?

If you come out as gay, you are expanding your possibilities and if you change from gay to straight, you are shutting down possibilites?

Going from gay to bi is fair enough, but from gay to not gay sounds very odd, and probably political and/or religious, either of which are forbidden topics on this board.

[Metalicana]

It's not that simple?

If you come out as gay, you are expanding your possibilities and if you change from gay to straight, you are shutting down possibilites?

Going from gay to bi is fair enough, but from gay to not gay sounds very odd.

So gay people are more evolved is that what you are saying?

i'm tlaking about straight people who spend years as straight people, build a fmaily and had kids and out of nowere decide that they are gay or trans or whatever.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, people have to come out as gay because heterosexuality is an assumed default that someone has to refute. There's not really a social assumption of gayness anywhere I can think of unless someone has previously declared themselves gay. And usually people don't come out as gay unless they're pretty sure they are because of the risks involved re: homophobic reactions from friends and family.

In certain very specific areas, the social expectation is so turned around that I could see the opposite happening: for example, I can see both male interior decorators and male ballerinas finding the occasional need to come out as straight (but don't actually know of any).

I do know of one woman who played football (real football - soccer for you Americans) in a local league who used to have to explicitly point out she was about the only straight player in the team - especially when one of the other players tried to hook up with her.

Grey Wolf