Villainous Competition XX​III: Two Heads Are Better Than One

[Inevitability]

MOAR disputes!

Spell Components: Eschew Materials only grants things costing less than 1GP free, higher level spells components cost much more then that, or are things that just can't be carried by a tiny birds talons. how do you propose to carry pinches of dried dust, very fine silver wire, iron filings, diamond dust, gems worth X gold, etc. Let alone decide what you need to carry w/ you on any given day? You can't just fly back to the church and have all the cultists tie tiny sacks onto the next bird in lines feet in any sort of quantity that would still allow them to fly. Penalty stands.

Well I do have a strength of 10, my ability to be encumbered should be at the level of a normal human, and I don't have infinite spells, Can I not just carry the materials for the spells I have prepared? Ravens can definitely open little baggies of dust or whatever to get the components out, and as you said I can have my cultists prepare them for me. Gemstones would be easiest, but I think any of those examples would be doable.

This normal crow can carry a knife, I think a blessed crow could carry a gemstone.

Video on youtube.

Hey there Jdizzlean, thank you so much for judging. I really appreciate the time and effort that it takes.

I have a major dispute that I think will pleasantly surprise you: The CR for MasaMune is calculated as a mixed pair. If you look at the build table, you'll see that Mune's feats are not added until later levels. If you check the induvidual stat blocks, you'll observe that Masa is a CR 19 entry and Mune ends at CR 17.

Sorry about the linking issue with sources. That's frustrating as all get out. Here is the mind's eye source with the hidden talent and bonus feat soulknife: http://archive.wizards.com/default.a.../psm/20070214a



Secondly, This may rustle your jimmies, but I'm going to go for it anyway. It doesn't say anywhere in the symbiotic template that your head is subsumed into the new body: in the picture for the template I can clearly see a stirge and a hobgoblin both having their head peek out of the same body. The attack portion of the template seems to spell out that a symbiotic creature with a bite attack, for example, would still get their bite attack. This makes him a super fast "this way! -No that way!" ogre monster thing. Hence the two headed picture that riffs off of that fantastic elocator art.


Anyway, Thanks for doing your best despite the web sources being broken links. I'm really glad that you seemed to like the entry a bit despite that frustration. I'll troubleshoot that issue next time I submit an entry.

Thanks again!

[jdizzlean]

Unkind:

While it's obvious that I don't agree w/ your position, I do recognize SOME merit within it. I will lessen the penalty by .25, however I still maintain my position that there are just some things you can't carry around at will, or that during a prolonged fight you would likewise be unable to access.

Final Score: 15.25

M&M:

On symbiosis: I feel the nature of the outward appearance is dependent upon each pairing. In the picture you mention, the reason the stirge is visible is that it has an attack that could be beneficial to the host being. An extra human head poking out of an otherwise normal looking human does nothing beneficial for the host short of maybe denying flanking. The guest head has no natural attacks like a breath weapon or gaze to deliver. Further you'd definately stand out and become a much more visible target then otherwise.

Secondly: A CR 19, and a CR 17 are still higher then a CR20 when joined, especially considering that you have dumped 3 stats on each one to only take advantage of the 3 you need from each when they are joined together. You don't have a weak stat at all. Sure you don't have 18's in anything, but you don't have 10's or less in anything either. You also don't have a bad save due to this. You're not taking 2 things and mashing them together, you have tailor made each so that when they're joined you have all positives and no negatives between them.

Thirdly: I still feel the symbiotic creature should be a mesh of the two of them from the start as it clearly states for every other line item in the description of the template. Not adding the feats from 1 until the end of the "build" goes against this line of reasoning. You've cherry picked the things you'll keep from each to conform Masamune to be a CR20 opponent, however I feel it's much higher due to the things I've stated. If you were to add all of the feats from both, all of the class skills from both, etc, you'd have more then is listed now.

As it sits, you have 30 feats listed on Masamune. a straight lvl 20 human fighter (fighter's suck, but get the most feats) only gets 19 feats. Clearly there is some serious cheese going on in your build. Even more so when you factor in a +20 untyped bonus to skills from one of the pair to the other..

And, not factored in, but you represent TEN classes in Masamune, which would've been an elegance penalty on its own for excessive sources, not counting who knows how many total sources have been used due to several items in the build table being listed as independent sources.

On Originality: I will lessen the penalty to .5 I feel that I can understand your view on it, despite my not agreeing with it.

On Power: I would've increased the score due to the points above, but then applied a cheese rating taking it away, score remains unchanged.

On Elegance: I will reduce the penalty by .5 However I feel strongly that this entry has abused the system at every step to create an extremely Overpowered "monster".

Total Score 11

(I can't access wizards content at work where I am currently, if that link changes any of the above further, I will update your score in another post to reflect this later tonight, or tomorrow after I've had a chance to review it.)

[Inevitability]

Another dispute.

I don't want to seem like I'm being contentious here, but there still seems to be some confusion on the build here.

You cannot gain Amon's breath weapon from the bind vestige feat, only the ability indicated on the chart that accompanies the feat. The only way to gain Amon's breath weapon is to take a level of binder, which I did not do.

When I mentioned Chuck and Rufus disagreeing on studying pact magic (binding) and the path of the blade (iron heart), this was to represent the feats that they take early in the build. I took care to mention that they together studied Duskblade.

I'm honestly confused how you think a situation could arise in which the penalty from influence would apply even once. The penalty would only happen if they willingly accepted beneficial magic derived from a deity of fire, sun or law, which is something they could simply refuse. Like a paladin falling, they have to choose to break influence and only then do they get the penalty. How would this happen?

Lastly, on Detach. You said "On the head, it may count as another weapon, but once you throw that head, how is that head supposed to deliver a strike once it's on the ground?" I agree with you that a severed head lying on the ground is incapable of ramming enemies. I would similarly say that a severed paw on the ground is not capable of clawing. I'm confused what this has to do with my build. If you are saying that detach only works on a body part that can attack all by itself, then the feat would never apply to anything. The point of the feat is that the damage is inflicted by throwing the body part; a melee natural attack briefly becomes a thrown weapon. Chuck and Rufus throw a head at a target, the target is damaged by the ram (as Detach explains) and then a spell channeled through this attack also affects the target. After this, the head doesn't do anything except return to the body (using lightning ricochet) and is then held onto the stump to be reattached.
The "RAW on head throwing as a weapon" is all from the full description of Detach, since it does not provide an exhaustive list of body parts, heads are included for delivering rams, gores, and so on. I want to be clear here. What do you think the Detach feat does?

[Inevitability]

Yet another dispute:

jdizzlean, thank you for judging!

A few things did pop up that I wanted to comment upon.

Skeletons lack internal organs and flesh, so I don’t know how you’d argue that a skeletal Hydra would be able to regrow heads (but I’d like to hear it). (-.5)

I don't know why such an argument is needed, really. If a Hydra's head is cut off, it regrows. That's the way it works. The whole head regrows. Flesh (if it exists), brain (if it exists), and bone. Skull, teeth, vertebrae -- it all grows back. Not because there are internal organs or flesh, but because of the hydra-ness. I know of nothing in the RAW that would require organs and flesh to regrow a head. And, as such, I see no reason that the lack of organs and flesh would prohibit those heads from regrowing.

Skeletons lose all feats from the base creature (so everything you have listed up to 12HD), and only gain Improved Initiative. You are giving yourself both the racial feats by HD, as well as the template. (-1)

True, the skeleton template does cause a creature to lose all of it's (previous) feats while gaining Improved Initiative.
However, the Awaken Undead spell (as per the Spell Compendium) returns intelligence to a mindless undead (such as a skeleton) and, with it, feats and skill points (as shown in the Monster Manual p.290). Thus, Boney Bonnie, being an Awakened Skeleton, gains the Improved Initiative feat from the skeleton template and her feats and skill points (as an undead Hydra) through leveling just as any other intelligent creature does.

[jdizzlean]

Chuck:

I feel like i'm taking crazy pills.

The breath weapon and which head does what HAD ZERO IMPACT ON YOUR SCORE THEY WERE JUST CONJECTURE ON MY PART.

You willingly gave yourself the "option" of a penalty in your build. I'm not going to story play the myriad ways that it could come up, few though they may be. Penalty stands.

On detach: A paw on the ground could still move, a tentacle on the ground could still whip around, a arm or leg on the ground could still kick, or punch, or swing a weapon. A head on the ground isn't mobile. I interpret the Detach feat to be this: You can throw a piece of your body somewhere, once there, it can act as a melee extension of yourself (it can deliver a strike!). Once a head is on the ground, it can't act, it has no mobility. If you had tentacles growing out of your head, and the head on the ground could then move, we wouldn't be having this conversation. While it's attached to your body, you can bend your waist, thrust forward with your body, and deliver a ram strike using the head. Once you take away all that structure, how do you propose to deal a strike? I already said that I appreciated the way you tried to take something that wasn't intended for what you wanted it to do, and put some thought into trying to get it to do what you wanted. I'm merely disagreeing with you.

Final Score: 14.25

Boney:

Regrowing: I agree that a hydra has the innate ability to regrow heads. I don't agree that a skeleton has the innate ability to regrow anything. You have a skeletal hydra that is the juxtaposition of these beliefs. I know what the template says, I'm simply not agreeing with it or you. Penalty stands.

Awaken/Skeleton: I'll remove half the penalty, and leave the rest as a further cheese rating for removing the penalties of being a skeleton at no effective cost.

Total Score: 16.5

[GrayDeath]

I am ack at home.
Should be able to start in depth judging tomorrow.

Sorry for theong wait (and wasn't there a third member who wanted to judge?).

[Inevitability]

GrayDeath, are you still judging? Otherwise I'll end this round.

[Thurbane]

GrayDeath, are you still judging? Otherwise I'll end this round.

While it would be nice to get a second lot of judging, October 31st would be an auspicious launch date for the new comp.

[Inevitability]

Any theme suggestions?

[remetagross]

Duo of villains? Soul reaper? Social villain?

How about a "Bureaucrat" villain in Red Fel's sense of the term? (Been rereading the guide that popped back^^). The villain that is somehow so intrinsically connected to the kingdom, that if he disappears, the kingdom might fall with him. Everyone despise and fears him, but is loathe to attack him because of how useful and essential he has come to grow within the society, the arcane network that keeps the world afloat, or what have you. And everyone hates having to resort to him, but still does, because he accomplishes his task better than anyone else.

[Thurbane]

Soul Reaper or Headless might be good for a Halloween round.

I also like the Politician, Cold Blooded and Yin/Yang themes.

[Darrin]

Any theme suggestions?

Given the contest will be running into November... well, it's largely an American/Canadian holiday, but a Thanksgiving theme... I was going to say, must involve a "bird", but I've got a better idea:

Swallow Whole.

[daremetoidareyo]

Given the contest will be running into November... well, it's largely an American/Canadian holiday, but a Thanksgiving theme... I was going to say, must involve a "bird", but I've got a better idea:

Swallow Whole.

perfect for thanksgiving

[GrayDeath]

As I promised, here it is. Had to jugde in many small amounts, due to massive time constraints.


Also, the headless and political seem most interesting to me atm.



Entry 1:

Spoiler: Taman and Thoron

Show

Originality:

While Dvate were very much exoected (although I myself dont count them as more than one head, as they have more than one BODY^^), the mix of classes and Monster of Legend very much were not (in part due to it not being legal, see later).

Overall almost the definition of Average. 3.00


Elegance: With the mix of no single class finished, a few Prestige classes and the small amount of cheese there is this would be the definition of a 3.00 … if there wasnt the glaring problem of Monster of legend. Dvati ar Humanoids.
So the build would need to be mssively remodeled to work, which subtracts another 1.5.

Sadly this leaves yo7u at 1.5


Power:

Ah, here we go. This assumes the build is made to work, otherwise I?d be punishing you in two seperate categories.
It does what its supposed to do very well and has some flexibility left to hlp out. Very good 4.5


Memorability:

Good, but not overwhelming. Depending on when the players meet the Twins they might not even realize their specialness, but if they do, the brothers are a foe to be remembered.

3.75

That gives you a Total of: 12.75pts

Entry 2:

Spoiler: Boney Bonny

Show

Originality: The heck? I expected at least one Hydra, but a Bone Hydra Warlock/Warhulk? Not in the slightest. V ery good 4.25 pts.


Elegance: Interesting, simple progression. I didn`t find obvious cheese or illegalities, which is good for you. Take 4.5pts


Power: Horrible BAB, but ways around that At will AOO provoking with huge range and number of attacks at late levels makes you icnredible at what you do.

But even with that your glaring weaknesses are range and not being able to fly. A few more Warlock levels might have solved that.
Still very good at core Area. 3,75

Memorability:

This thing is going to be remembered, yeah. Nothing more to add. 4.5


Total: Very good 17.00 pts

Entry 3:

Spoiler: Masa & Mune

Show

Originality: I did not expect a Symbiotic Creature at all, probably since it does not per se offer a second head. Good find! 4.5pts


Elegance: I do not think this works quite the way you think. You dont just build 3 characters, dump the unnecessary stats and fuse them when using symbiotic creature. Some of your tricks work the way you state, but the combined stats and hence some feats/tricks do not.
Overall a bit cheesy, slightly illegal, and many classes leave you at 2.00


Power:

If everything worked the way you intend, which I am assuming for not penalizing the same flaw twice, the power level is quite high. Even if he does not really have ways to deal with ranged enemies/most casters, he does fill his niche well.

3.75


Memorability:

Nice story, if the players get it (and get behind it) a memorable character through most of a campaign, or even longer. If they do not, its a weird single enemy psycho (intentional pun) combo.

3.25

Total Points 13.5pts

Entry 4:

Spoiler: Aperantos

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Originality:

A big multiheaded snake, expected. Binder and Elder Evil Devotion? Not so much. Still the overall build is simple, so a slightly below average 2.75

Elegance: Which gives you a big boost on Elegance. Aside from Extra Vile Feats, it cant get any more elgant than Racial HD+single class. Excellent 5.00

Power: I admit, this one was hard. At my first jugding I had it much lower, but your info posts did in the end convince me that it had enough versatility and raw power to get it up to a full 4.00

Memorability: If the Player Characters realize who it serves (and since its only real existence is at CL 20 they will), good. Not great, as it lacks the „Meets them a few times“ of more … developing characters, but good. 3.5

Total: 15.25pts

Entry 5:

Spoiler: Chuck and Rufus

Show

Originality: A twoheaded Troll with Shadow Template? Didn`t see that coming. The Class Combo is also not really expected, and a semistealth focus on a Giant type is really ...different.
4.00

Elegance: Race, Template, unfinished classes. Simple, cheesefree enough, but nothing is „finished“. Still, nothing illegal either, so a good 4.00


Power: Another not easy one. On the surface its a mediocre bruiser Gish, but the stealth abilities and some minor tricks make it more adaptable than expected. Overall I give it a good to very good 3.5

Memorability: If you use the pic from your post: immense. ;=)

Jokes aside, another hit or miss. If your Players have some humor, and the presentation works, great. Otherwise good but nothing special (unusual Giant Warrior is unusual).
3.5

Total: 15.00

Entry 6:

Spoiler: The Fleshriver Horror

Show

Originality: Nothing innovative there, except for the (cheesy, see below) combination of the whole. Fun though, so I`ll give it a fair 2.5

Elegance: 2 Cheesy abuses means - pts. A Dip that is always used this way another -. No real illegalities I can spot, so you can rest easy on 3.00pts

Power: Yikes, semiepic to epic in the whole CR area. Rule abuse is scary, even if it lacks real ranged options/flight, that gives you 4.75pts.

Memorability: for sheer „we actually survived that nightmare? Effect, if not for fluff or style, I give you 4.00


Total: 14.25pts

Entry 7:

Spoiler: The Unkindness of Hextor

Show

Memorability: Well well well, that is really unexpected, and in a cool way too. Take 4.5!

Elegance: A weer bit cheesy, but nothing even remotely illegal. A few more classes than is strictly elegant, but all fit the theme well/are necessary (you could argue against contemplative at most).
Good 3.5pts

Power: If everything works the way you spell it (and most DM`s would probably ignore the problem of handling material components for the sorcerer casting, I know I would), this rocks. If the casting is advanced with the racial HD, it rocks even more. Flexibility, Power, all check.
4.75

Memorability: Are you fricking kidding me? A dual Caster swarm of Ravens? Unlikely to ever be forgotten if you ask me! Nice story and mood as well, take almost perfec 4.75

Total: 17.5pts

Honorable mention goes to Chuck and Rufus. Just for the sheer lolz. :P

[remetagross]

Hahaha crazy funny idea ^^ if a bit too gimmicky, maybe...

[Deadline]

Given the contest will be running into November... well, it's largely an American/Canadian holiday, but a Thanksgiving theme... I was going to say, must involve a "bird", but I've got a better idea:

Swallow Whole.

While solid, it may be better to swing a little wide and go for a "feasting" or "hunger" theme. Then again, I do like crazy tight restrictions.

[Thurbane]

A Hunger/Feasting/Swallow Whole riound would be interesting.

If we go with Halloween themed, someone suggested a Creepy Clown round a while back, as well.

[The Viscount]

Many thanks GrayDeath!
Any of these themes sounds good to me.

[Darrin]

A Hunger/Feasting/Swallow Whole riound would be interesting.

I think I like that idea... Open it up to hunger, feeding... We could call it:

Feed me, Seymour!

[alpine]

I also like swallow whole and would like to try a round with more restrictions. A duo would also be kinda cool. If we're going to do headless I would like a clarification on what counts as a head given the long discussion earlier in this thread on the subject.

Also thanks for getting the judging done GrayDeath!

[Baby Gary]

A Hunger/Feasting/Swallow Whole riound would be interesting.

If we go with Halloween themed, someone suggested a Creepy Clown round a while back, as well.

I would like to see a creepy clown, that would have some really cool creations (but I can't think of anything that would work)

[Technetium43]

I would also love a jester/clown themed round. Very thematic.

[Thurbane]

My HM goes to Aperantos: it was very close between him and The Unkindness of Hextor; I really like ravens, and I really like Yuan-ti/snakes.

[jdizzlean]

1. Taman and Thoron: Monster of Legend Dvati Conjuror 2/Ruathar 3/Eldritch Knight 8/Abjurant Champion 5
2. Boney Bonnie: Awakened Skeleton 12-headed Pyrohydra Warhulk 10/Warlock 4
3. Masa and Mune: Symbiotic Human Soulknife 4/Warblade 7/Warmind 7/Fighter 1//Feat Rogue 4/Cobra Strike Monk 2/Skilled City Dweller Fighter 2/Skilled City Dweller Psychic Warrior 1/Elocator 3/Fortune’s Friend 5
4. Aperantos: Yuan-ti Anathema Binder 2
5. Chuck and Rufus: Shadow Multiheaded Primordial Giant Troll Duskblade 5/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Duskblade 8
6. The Fleichshriver Horror: Half-Fiend Multiheaded (ten heads) Phaerlin Giant Barbarian 1/Swordsage 8
7. The Unkindness of Hextor: Hivemind Murder of Crows of Legend Cloistered Cleric 1/Sorcerer 2/Mystic Theurge 10/Contemplative 2

Entry	Creator	Judge 1	Judge 2	Judge 3	Total	Ranking
Taman and Thoron	???	-	-	-	-	-
Boney Bonnie	???	-	-	-	-	-
Masa and Mune	???	-	-	-	-	-
Aperantos	???	-	-	-	-	-
Chuck and Rufus	???	-	-	-	-	-
The Fleichshriver Horror	???	-	-	-	-	-
The Unkindness of Hextor	???	-	-	-	-	-

...I'm already torn between two entries for my Honorable Mention. I'll say it again: great entries this round!

anyone care to comb the thread to compile this info?

[Inevitability]

Two more 'disputes', of a kind.

Hey all, can we just double check that the original judging from jdizzlean has been updated for the corrections/updates for the Fleichsriver Horror?

Just wanted to get this sorted before we tally up totals, thanks.

Oh, and for GrayDeath: the Horror does actually have a fly speed. Very happy with a 4.75 in the power category, though, so I won't push the point too much.

[jdizzlean]

i didn't go back and edit the scores in my original post as i was buried under an avalanche of disputes. I probably had 3 separate windows of this thread open everytime i was answering one so i I didn't have to scroll all over the place.

Work has been **** the past two weeks ( I primarily get time on this board, or these comps at work :) ) So i've been mentally drained, which is why i quoted that table and suggested someone go thru and tally the changes up :)

still have 2.5 hours to go on this shift before the weekend, and just want a beer lol.

stupid adulting.

[Blue Jay]

Here, Jdizzlean, I got your back. I think this represents the current state of affairs:

Entry	Creator	Judge 1	Judge 2	Judge 3	Total	Ranking
Taman and Thoron	???	9.25	12.75	-	22	(disqualified)
Boney Bonnie	???	16.5	17	-	33.5	1st
Masa and Mune	???	11	13.5	-	24.5	6th
Aperantos	???	12	15.25	-	27.25	5th
Chuck and Rufus	???	14.25	15	-	29.25	4th
The Fleichshriver Horror	???	18	14.25	-	32.25	3rd
The Unkindness of Hextor	???	15.25	17.5	-	32.75	2nd

[ben-zayb]

Honorable Mention goes to Chuck and Rufus.

[jdizzlean]

Honorable Mention goes to Chuck and Rufus.

ditto

It's hilarious :)

[remetagross]

Same for me :)