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    HalflingRogueGirl

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    Default Battle baby challenge

    So, I had a talk with a player of mine about a couple of babies that appeared in a play by post (as living MacGuffins), and a thought occurred to me: I intentionally made the baby template extremely underpowered, but just HOW underpowered is it? I'm sure that with the allowed books for the setting somebody COULD turn that into a workable build for a level 1 character, but how would they do that? And thus, the silliest thread I have ever posted was born.

    The challenge is to make the most capable character you can using the infant template. I don't know why you'd be playing an infant, maybe the plot hook was that you got turned into one by a witch or something and you have to find a way to get turned back, but why really is not the point. Despite the thread title, they don't actually have to be good at combat, any role in a PC party will suffice. Except mascot, babies are already great at that. The infant template gives a -6 to strength, to faith/wisdom and +6 to charisma, reduces movement speed to 10ft/round (for a 30ft/round race) and reduces size by 2. Assume 4d6b3. They must be ECL 1 and level 1 in a PC class, which means no level adjusting races or templates. The rulebooks allowed are the core books, including the handbooks (even miniatures), as well as the complete series and oriental adventures. The rule changes for the setting are here, but they're enough to sift through that I don't expect you to actually read them and indeed this doesn't even have to be for that setting, if you can make this work in ANY setting that's good enough for me.

    Bonus points if you design a build that is somehow better than if you were just one age category older. Toddlers have -4 str, -4 fth/wis, +6 cha, -1 size and 15ft/round move rate. I don't think there's any build that benefits from being one size smaller so much that it's worth losing four ability points and a third of your move rate, but maybe you can find one.
    Last edited by Avianmosquito; 2017-09-14 at 12:48 AM. Reason: Rule clarification

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Seems like sorcerer would be the obvious class, then? 15-18 base Charisma, +6 for being a baby, plus Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), and let loose with the sleep spells and coup de grace attacks.

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    HalflingRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Seems like sorcerer would be the obvious class, then? 15-18 base Charisma, +6 for being a baby, plus Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), and let loose with the sleep spells and coup de grace attacks.
    Hm. Sorcerer is a good one for high charisma, yes. Also favored soul, warmage and warlock, as well as bard and marshall if well played (but then, you're basically a mascot). I can see a DC 20 sleep spell being really potent at low levels, too, but you would be reliant on another character making the coup de grace since you're so extraordinarily slow and weak and of course it only works against up to 4HD of creatures. And although we're assuming you start at 1st level, that would be pretty worthless in one or two levels.

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Avianmosquito View Post
    Hm. Sorcerer is a good one for high charisma, yes. Also favored soul, warmage and warlock, as well as bard and marshall if well played (but then, you're basically a mascot). I can see a DC 20 sleep spell being really potent at low levels, too, but you would be reliant on another character making the coup de grace since you're so extraordinarily slow and weak and of course it only works against up to 4HD of creatures. And although we're assuming you start at 1st level, that would be pretty worthless in one or two levels.
    Yep, but if you're getting level-appropriate challenges it'll be enough to one-shot most encounters. And it lasts for 1 minute per caster level, enough time to crawl around slaying enemies with your tiny dagger :D

    What's the rationale for your age category? Babies should have animal Intelligence scores, I'd argue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Yep, but if you're getting level-appropriate challenges it'll be enough to one-shot most encounters. And it lasts for 1 minute per caster level, enough time to crawl around slaying enemies with your tiny dagger :D
    With -3 damage, even a coup de grace won't usually kill. You won't deal any damage and a DC 10 save is super easy.

    What's the rationale for your age category? Babies should have animal Intelligence scores, I'd argue.
    Why? They aren't stupid, and they're no more an animal than anybody else. If anything, they learn far faster than adults do, which they have to since every single thing you do on a daily basis is extremely complicated upon inspection.

    Have you ever tried to learn a language? Can you imagine learning an extraordinarily difficult language (which English is) without even having a basic understanding of what a language is or how it works (which you'll have to figure out) or what language you're even learning (which you'll ALSO have to figure out), or even really trying to learn it? Can you now imagine doing that with no assistance, no curriculum and no materials, by yourself, only by listening to people speak it when you don't yet know the context (which is a great many more things to figure out) or how even to use context (which is ANOTHER thing you have to figure out)?

    Because as a baby, you did that. And learned to walk, which is way harder than it sounds, and how to navigate household dangers that adult you now doesn't even realise are dangerous. And faster ways to figure things out, and basics of behaviour, and other things that form the advanced parts of your personality and thought process. And that's just what comes to mind. And you did all that without really trying, with half an adult's waking hours, often with people actively hampering you, in a couple years, most of the harder stuff in just the first year alone.

    There's more to the intelligence score than just learning ability, of course, but it's the primary factor and even if we assume every other facet is at zero (which is an accurate assessment) a baby's mind is so good at learning I can't give them a penalty here.

    And why are you talking about intelligence, anyway?
    Last edited by Avianmosquito; 2017-09-14 at 06:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Avianmosquito View Post
    Why? They aren't stupid, and they're no more an animal than anybody else.
    Because they won't beat adult chimpanzees at most mental tasks until they're about 3 or 4 years old.

    If anything, they learn far faster than adults do,
    Which is nice and all, but this is not what's mostly modeled with the intelligence stat. Babies are objectively worse at solving puzzles, at recounting important knowledge about the world they live in and at preparing a 100mM stock solution of sciencium in organic solvent, all of which would be done using the intelligence stat. The only learning a character uses the int stat for is skill point gain, and I think it's kind of reasonable to give a baby less skill points than other 1st level characters, because they're generally terrible at handling horses, throwing a lasso or weaving baskets underwater, to name a few things. For intelligence as the system models it, semi-realistic babies should absolutely have a lower score, and in fact I wouldn't mind if they were some form of level 0 and had no skill points at all.

    It's your template though, so feel free to handle babies like tiny squishy adults. That's probably for the best if you want to give them classes and send them into the world to adventure. You're just talking about a different creature then the one most people think of when they hear the word baby.

    I would also like to suggest, again, for semi-realistic babies, not giving babies language. None of them, at all. Yes, they can often say mama before they're proper toddlers, but that is not going to convey any useful information that they couldn't convey by smiling and reaching.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2017-09-14 at 06:38 AM.
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    HalflingRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    I just need to get something super important across: The age templates DO NOT reflect every single tiny, insignificant aspect of being a certain age. I am not adding language restrictions, level guidelines, diaper statistics, teething rules, crawling terrain modifiers and cuddling mechanics. These templates ONLY cover the physical factors of it, and the most essential mental traits that can reasonably be applied no matter how this template is being used. Everything else is left to roleplayers. There are five reasons for this, which I don't think you've considered even one of.

    1. This isn't FATAL. You simply can't cover every little thing with a rule, at some point you have to give up and let the players and DMs sort it out, or you end up with five kinds of charisma and over nine thousand modifiers in a rulebook the size of War and Peace. You can't plan for everything so leaving the rules looser just works better, and smart people don't play rules as written anyway.

    2. Some people mature far faster or slower than others. Some children learn to speak before they're a year old, some take until five or six. Some people may hit puberty at 7, most around 10, others at 13 or even later. Some people have a competent understanding of the world and are able to function in it by age 3, some by 13, some not until 30, and most wouldn't know their ass from a hole in the ground if they lived to be 300.

    3. Different races age at different rates. While this is NEVER explored in most settings, in some settings it's actually used to considerable effect. If an infant is actually 8 years old, they should be quite capable of speaking fluently by now unless elves are profoundly mentally challenged (which would not actually surprise me THAT much).

    4. Not all people in an age group are ACTUALLY that age. Some of them have eternal (or at least extended) youth, or were prematurely aged, or polymorphed into that age, or something. It's NOT that strange in fantasy, at all. This is further amplified by infants being explicitly not intended for player use, if a PC is using the infant template they probably aren't really an infant. In fact, in my own setting that this is built for, there's a lot of extra age-manipulating content, including items that make you stop aging or age in reverse, a spell that can polymorph you into any age category the caster wants (a variant of baleful polymorph, mostly), a literal fountain of youth (actually quite a few), elixirs that temporarily halt or reverse aging, and even some monsters whose special abilities will change a character's age (usually making them far older very quickly, by the way). Hell, one significant named NPC has been about 4 years old for over 300 years of her over 700 year life. See #1 for why I'm not writing normal rules, and exception rules for each and every way the age categories can be messed with.

    5. Nobody's going to agree on the modifiers anyway, no matter what I do. Which is why this thread IS NOT ABOUT the validity of the template itself. This thread is just a silly challenge to make a workable build with an extremely underpowered age template, with an extra challenge to make it in a way that the age template right above it wouldn't be better for that build.

    I also should note, by the way, that skill points really are the most important thing about intelligence. The ONLY time this isn't the case is when playing a class that uses intelligence for class abilities. Even then, an extra skill point per level will always do more than an extra +1 from an ability score modifier, which is why intelligence gets away with doing so little else.
    Last edited by Avianmosquito; 2017-09-14 at 08:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    My suggestion for the sorcerer build above would be to also get a riding dog. That's your speed, carrying capacity and coup-de-grace problems solved. Also, handle animal is charisma based.
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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    So, anything which relies on INT, DEX or CON is okay, and anything that relies on CHA is supercharged by your force of personality that babies definitely have. Sorcerer and bard are obvious, but what about rogue? Reliant on INT, DEX, CON and CHA, and the STR penalty matters less when your damage is based more on how many dice you're rolling at the enemy and less on the modifiers. A single level in rogue won't do a great deal of damage, but it's enough to knock out an unlucky warrior or any but the most fortunate of commoners at first level.

    Apart from that, other characters that rely on being sneaky and/or using charisma, especially spellcasters, are probably the best deal here.

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    I'm going to suggest Half-elf Urban Druid for whatever you do class wise. Urban Druid with an Small Animated Object (Carseat) as an Urban Companion. Now you're a Cha casting Druid with a flying mount, and the ability to magically scatter every unsecured object within a 10 foot radius all over the floor, and you get +2 to diplomacy/bluff in your hometown.

    If you want to break it, I guess you'd Dip Half Elf Bard ACF and Marshal, turn your animated object carseat into your item familiar as well as your urban companion, and continue Diplomancer build as normal while you turn everyone into fanatically loyal servants, worshipping their newborn god.
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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Avianmosquito View Post
    1. This isn't FATAL. You simply can't cover every little thing with a rule,
    So instead I'm going to have creatures famous for being fooled by the clever illusion of "putting your hands in front of your face to make it seem you're suddenly not there anymore" be as intelligent in the D&D sense of the word as an adult human. Got you.

    That said (and I realize the above sound kind of mean but I don't know how to put it differently), I like the rest of your justification a lot better. As I said, this is your world, and if this is a world where a baby is generally a 300 year old being hiding in a tiny body with full mental faculties yet an immense capacity to learn that's fine. If something to that effect had been put in the opening posts we wouldn't have argued for limiting intelligence. I just assumed the world was like standard D&D unless otherwise noted, and standard D&D is like earth unless otherwise noted and doesn't deal with babies a lot. Honest mistake.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2017-09-14 at 02:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    So instead I'm going to have creatures famous for being fooled by the clever illusion of "putting your hands in front of your face to make it seem you're suddenly not there anymore" be as intelligent in the D&D sense of the word as an adult human. Got you.
    Wouldn't that fall under Wisdom?
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    HalflingRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    So instead I'm going to have creatures famous for being fooled by the clever illusion of "putting your hands in front of your face to make it seem you're suddenly not there anymore" be as intelligent in the D&D sense of the word as an adult human. Got you.
    That's a myth, and a stupid one. Just like that stupid myth that babies aren't sentient because they won't wipe a dot off their face, the fact that they laugh at adults acting silly does not mean they don't understand object permanence. Not only is the "logic" behind that a complete non-sequitor, the premise is so absurd I don't know how anyone buys into it and it is demonstrably not true. Walk out of the room, if your baby didn't understand object permanence they'd think you stopped existing and freak out instantly the moment they couldn't see you. Notice how they DON'T do that, and yet later when they need something they cry to call you despite supposedly according to morons not knowing you exist unless they see you. Babies understand object permanence just fine and from birth. So do small rodents and some insects.

    That said (and I realize the above sound kind of mean but I don't know how to put it differently), I like the rest of your justification a lot better. As I said, this is your world, and if this is a world where a baby is generally a 300 year old being hiding in a tiny body with full mental faculties yet an immense capacity to learn that's fine. If something to that effect had been put in the opening posts we wouldn't have argued for limiting intelligence. I just assumed the world was like standard D&D unless otherwise noted, and standard D&D is like earth unless otherwise noted and doesn't deal with babies a lot. Honest mistake.
    I don't even know where to start with this complete nonsense.

    1. Most babies are just babies. PCs are NOT a good model for what's normal in the game world.

    2. An adult transformed into a baby has the mind of an adult, only altered by their new body's brain proportions and endocrine system. They don't get a baby's excellent learning ability, for the same reason they don't lose all their memories. Their stats change, but they are the same person.

    3. Again, NONE of that is normal in the game world. PCs doing it, even if they did it a lot, will never make it normal.

    4. Nobody wants to be an infant long-term. The penalties are too harsh and all classes it's suited to a toddler would be better at. In fact, a child would usually be better at them as well, despite having slightly lower charisma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    My suggestion for the sorcerer build above would be to also get a riding dog. That's your speed, carrying capacity and coup-de-grace problems solved. Also, handle animal is charisma based.
    Also as a side bonus, it'd be adorable.

    But I would point out that handle animal is not a class skill for sorcerers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    So, anything which relies on INT, DEX or CON is okay, and anything that relies on CHA is supercharged by your force of personality that babies definitely have. Sorcerer and bard are obvious, but what about rogue? Reliant on INT, DEX, CON and CHA, and the STR penalty matters less when your damage is based more on how many dice you're rolling at the enemy and less on the modifiers. A single level in rogue won't do a great deal of damage, but it's enough to knock out an unlucky warrior or any but the most fortunate of commoners at first level.
    Well, the commener class is one hit killed by a ****ing house cat, this is actually less ridiculous, but what if your DM, say, doesn't use commoners? What if they use max HP at first level for NPCs, or rarely make NPCs level 1?

    Also, the strength penalty is severe enough that even at level 1 it can ruin your damage. Even so, you are on the right track.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alent View Post
    I'm going to suggest Half-elf Urban Druid for whatever you do class wise. Urban Druid with an Small Animated Object (Carseat) as an Urban Companion. Now you're a Cha casting Druid with a flying mount, and the ability to magically scatter every unsecured object within a 10 foot radius all over the floor, and you get +2 to diplomacy/bluff in your hometown.

    If you want to break it, I guess you'd Dip Half Elf Bard ACF and Marshal, turn your animated object carseat into your item familiar as well as your urban companion, and continue Diplomancer build as normal while you turn everyone into fanatically loyal servants, worshipping their newborn god.
    Diplomancy is always an automatic game-breaker, what DM are you playing with you allows you to use RAW when it instantly breaks the entire game?
    Last edited by Avianmosquito; 2017-09-14 at 05:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Handle Animal is Charisma-based, burn 2 skill points to get a cross-class rank and you're set (but to be honest you're probably fine just making untrained checks, you don't need to train the dog yourself).

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Handle Animal is Charisma-based, burn 2 skill points to get a cross-class rank and you're set (but to be honest you're probably fine just making untrained checks, you don't need to train the dog yourself).
    And it being cross-class means you can only invest 1/2 as much into it, so as you level you will fall inreasingly far behind. Skill points > ability mods.

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Avianmosquito View Post
    And it being cross-class means you can only invest 1/2 as much into it, so as you level you will fall inreasingly far behind. Skill points > ability mods.
    I'm not sure what you mean? Handle Animal has a flat DC 10/15 for anything a PC will need with an animal, assuming they purchase a pre-trained mount. Your Charisma should be quite sufficient. Unless you have a special houserule?

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean? Handle Animal has a flat DC 10/15 for anything a PC will need with an animal, assuming they purchase a pre-trained mount. Your Charisma should be quite sufficient. Unless you have a special houserule?
    Check that again. Push DC is 25. Attack, defend, guard and track are DC 20. So are combat riding, fighting, guarding and hunting. I do have an animal armour rule as well with DCs to teach use of armor with DCs of 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 if you want to bump their AC up, but even without that it isn't all 10s and 15s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avianmosquito View Post
    Check that again. Push DC is 25. Attack, defend, guard and track are DC 20. So are combat riding, fighting, guarding and hunting. I do have an animal armour rule as well with DCs to teach use of armor with DCs of 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 if you want to bump their AC up, but even without that it isn't all 10s and 15s.
    Oh whoops, I misread the push DC. However it's irrelevant, if you buy a pre-trained mount you don't need anything beyond the DC 10 - everything else is for if you train the beast yourself (or Push it, but you don't need to push it if it's properly trained).

    Again, a riding dog is already trained for combat. Sorcerer-baby just needs to send the enemies to sleep, make a coup de grace (2 damage, Fort save DC 12 or die), then baby and dog get attacks of opportunity if opponent survives when it tries to stand up.
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-09-14 at 09:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    1st-level baby sorcerer (could use battle sorcerer variant but let's stick to basic core sources).

    3d4x10 gold, let's assume minimum gold (30 gold). Riding dog is actually too expensive, so will just get guard dog companion instead (25 gp, 5 gp left). Buy a spear (1d8, critical x3 for 2 gp), spend remainder on fancy toys.

    Will use elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) for ability scores.

    Charisma 21, Strength 8, Dex 13, Con 12, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 2
    Skills: Concentration 4 (+5), Bluff 4 (+9), Knowledge (arcana) 4 (+4)
    Feats: Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (enchantment)
    Familiar: Cat or hawk.

    Bluff gets us through social situations, Improved Inititiative let's us go first in combat (hopefully), familiar is our eyes and ears due to our abysmal Wisdom.

    Spells: 0th- daze, dazzle, orb of acid, prestidigitation; 1st-colour spray, sleep (maybe swap one out for charm person, mage armour, or shield)

    In combat: send opponents to sleep, perform coup de grace attacks with spear (this baby has only a -1 Str mod and a spear does triple damage, so you may get a proper coup de grace out of it). Daze individual opponents so your dog and familiar can attack them safely.

    In social - rely on your Bluff (or +6 Charisma mod otherwise), and get your familiar to attempt o Aid Another as well.
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-09-14 at 09:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Oh whoops, I misread the push DC. However it's irrelevant, if you buy a pre-trained mount you don't need anything beyond the DC 10 - everything else is for if you train the beast yourself (or Push it, but you don't need to push it if it's properly trained).

    Again, a riding dog is already trained for combat. Sorcerer-baby just needs to send the enemies to sleep, make a coup de grace (2 damage, Fort save DC 12 or die), then baby and dog get attacks of opportunity if opponent survives when it tries to stand up.
    And how much, pray tell, does a pre-trained riding dog cost? I see 150gp, plus 20-60gp for the saddle depending on whether it gets counted as a normal mount or an unusual one. Are you sure your GM will give you that much? And can you even have a tiny character ride a mount meant for small ones anyway?

    Ride is also not a sorcerer class skill, most enemies have good fortitude saves and most that don't have good will saves, sleep isn't as strong as you think it is due to its HD limitation, and that dagger deals 1d2-3.

    Okay, more detailed plan is better. You have a backup plan. But why use two spells with will saves?
    Last edited by Avianmosquito; 2017-09-14 at 09:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Avianmosquito View Post
    And how much, pray tell, does a pre-trained riding dog cost? I see 150gp, plus 20-60gp for the saddle depending on whether it gets counted as a normal mount or an unusual one. Are you sure your GM will give you that much? And can you even have a tiny character ride a mount meant for small ones anyway?

    Ride is also not a sorcerer class skill, most enemies have good fortitude saves and most that don't have good will saves, sleep isn't as strong as you think it is due to its HD limitation, and that dagger deals 1d2-3.
    Ha, ninja'd! Already incorporated that into my writeup Guard dog it is.

    If you're a 1st-level PC up against level-appropriate challenges, sleep and colour spray are great. If you're throwing over-leveled enemies at us, even non-babies will have trouble. Pick some standard challenges and we'll see how our suggested builds fare.

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Ha, ninja'd! Already incorporated that into my writeup Guard dog it is.

    If you're a 1st-level PC up against level-appropriate challenges, sleep and colour spray are great. If you're throwing over-leveled enemies at us, even non-babies will have trouble. Pick some standard challenges and we'll see how our suggested builds fare.
    Ninja'd you right back. And I will note real quick your spear would be 1d4. Tiny, remember?

    Do you want core, expanded, Aelsif, or one of each?
    Last edited by Avianmosquito; 2017-09-14 at 09:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avianmosquito View Post
    Ninja'd you right back. And I will note real quick your spear would be 1d4. Tiny, remember?

    Do you want core, expanded, Aelsif, or one of each?
    Oh duh, right. 1d4-1 then for damage, 1.5 average, x3 for coup de grace: 4.5 average coup de grace damage, Fort DC 14 or 15 vs death. Plus attacks of opportunity etc from rising from prone.

    Whatever everyone else wants then. Also I think I'll swap out dazzle for disrupt undead, just in case.

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    HalflingRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    I'll do one of each.

    For core, a standard SRD super-powered ultra bull**** wolf (CR 1) with skin like chainmail, teeth like a battle axe attached to some kind of magic extendoneck to give them 5ft reach with a < 1ft snout and somehow make attacks of opportunity with the single least practical natural weapon ever, and all the other magical superpowers given to every SRD animal because... Nevermind, not getting into that.

    For expanded cotent, a crow-headed tengu from oriental adventures. (CR 1). A monstrous humanoid with a sword that somehow is no more dangerous than an 80lb canine. Which is bull****.

    And for Aelsif, which I should note works a little differently (IE: animals got unbull****ified and that wolf is CR 1/3), I choose 8 minor swarmlings (CR 1/8). Sheet will be up when I reach my computer.
    Last edited by Avianmosquito; 2017-09-14 at 10:51 PM. Reason: Typo.

  26. - Top - End - #26
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    BABETTE THE BABY, 1ST-LEVEL INFANT SORCERER
    Size/Type: Tiny Humanoid (human)
    Hit Dice: 1d4+1 (5 hp)
    Initiative: +5
    Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares)
    Armor Class: 13 (+2 size, +1 Dex), touch 13, flat-footed 12
    Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-9
    Attack: Spear +1 melee (1d4-1/x3)
    Full Attack: Spear +1 melee (1d4-1/x3)
    Space/Reach: 0 ft./0 ft.
    Special Attacks: Spells
    Special Qualities: Human traits, summon familiar
    Saves: Fort +1, Ref +1, Will -2
    Abilities: Str 8, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 2, Cha 21
    Skills: Bluff +9, Concentration +5, Hide +9*, Knowledge (arcana) +4, Spot -1*
    Feats: Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (enchantment)
    Environment: Wherever she pleases!
    Organization: Unique (plus Feathers and Fido)
    Challenge Rating: 3
    Treasure: Gear (see below)
    Alignment: Chaotic good
    Advancement: By character class
    Level Adjustment: +0

    "Goo goo ga ga"

    Babette the baby is an adorable and generally good-natured baby who left her cradle to seek her fortune. She is accompanied by her trusty companions, Feathers and Fido.

    In social situations, Babette relies on her tremendous charm and facility for nonverbal Bluffing i.e. playing peekaboo. She keeps Feathers and Fido close to her out in the wilderness, to rely on their acute Listen and Spot skills and to benefit from Alertness (via Feathers).

    Babette speaks only a few words of Common, generally not enough for protracted conversation (though she can still cast spells with verbal components).

    Combat
    Babette generally resorts to sleep spells to pacify her opponents, before performing coup de grace attempts on them one by one with her spear. When faced with individual opponents she instead attempts to daze them so that Feathers and Fido can attack with impunity. Against undead, she fires disrupt undead spells and has her minions deliver the killing blows.

    Summon Familiar
    Babette is served by Feathers the hawk familiar (2 hp). She gains Alertness as a bonus feat while he is within 5 feet.

    Spells
    Babette casts spells as a 1st-level sorcerer.

    Spells Known (7/4; save DC 15 + spell level; 16 + spell level for enchantment)
    0th-daze, disrupt undead, orb of acid, prestidigitation; 1st- colour spray, sleep

    Skills
    *Babette has a +8 size modifier on Hide checks due to being Tiny. She also has a +3 bonus on Spot checks in bright light due to having a hawk familiar.

    Gear
    Fido the guard dog (25 gp), Tiny spear (2gp), spell component pouch (5 gp); total value 32 gp.
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-09-15 at 12:36 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #27
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    I'm open to suggestions from other people if her spell selection should be altered.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Avianmosquito View Post
    I'll do one of each.

    For core, a standard SRD super-powered ultra bull**** wolf (CR 1) with skin like chainmail, teeth like a battle axe attached to some kind of magic extendoneck to give them 5ft reach with a < 1ft snout and somehow make attacks of opportunity with the single least practical natural weapon ever, and all the other magical superpowers given to every SRD animal because... Nevermind, not getting into that.

    For expanded cotent, a crow-headed tengu from oriental adventures. (CR 1). A monstrous humanoid with a sword that somehow is no more dangerous than an 80lb canine. Which is bull****.

    And for Aelsif, which I should note works a little differently (IE: animals got unbull****ified and that wolf is CR 1/3), I choose 8 minor swarmlings (CR 1/8). Sheet will be up when I reach my computer.
    Note that I'm not sure about CR calculations but for a solo character a CR1 monster is probably too powerful a foe (nevertheless, I'm sure Babette will triumph ;) ).

    On average, Babette wins initiative against a wolf, and even if not she still has her 2 companions to draw it's attention. She'll always get Feathers to fight defensively (he's more useful as a persistent distraction and it'll be a bit hit to her if he dies); if he's not under attack himself he can use the Aid Another action. Fido is more expendable (and by RAW probably can't be instrucuted to fight defensively or use Aid Another anyways). She'll be free to spam sleep spells until the wolf falls asleep.

    Crow-headed tengu are CR1 but have shout (4th-level attack spell!!!) as an at-will SLA, so I really shouldn't dignify that with a response. :D Why not send a tarrasque while you're at it? Nevertheless, she still has a good chance of winning initiative though the tengu is much more likely to resist the first sleep spell.

    Afraid I'm not familiar with swarmlings! But if they're not immune to mind-affecting effects, sleep is once again the name of the game (or colour spray, depending on whichever will incapacitate the most swarmlings). Otherwise, orbs of acid and getting her minions to pick them off.
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-09-15 at 01:19 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    HalflingRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Swarmlings are a very weak original monster for the Aelsif campaign setting.

    Spoiler: Swarmling (CR 1/8)
    Show

    Tiny cosmic (minor)*
    Hit dice: 1d8-1 (3hp)
    Initiative: +2
    Speed: 10ft, climb 10ft, swim 20ft
    Armor class: 5 (Base 0, +2 size +2 dex, 1 natural)
    Spell resistance: 3
    Damage reduction: 0
    Energy resistance: 0 (4 Acid)
    Base attack/grapple: 0, -12
    Attack: Tongue +4 melee (1 nonlethal bludgeon)
    Full attack: Tongue +4 melee (1 nonlethal bludgeon)
    Space/reach: 2 1/2ft, 5ft
    Special attacks: Improved grab, constrict 1, swallow whole, voice of the cosmos
    Special qualities: Regen 1
    Saves: Fort +1, ref +4, will +4
    Abilities: Str 3, Dex 15, Con 8, Int 1, Fth 14, Cha 7
    Skills: Climb 8, hide 4, listen 4, move silently 4, search 12, spot 4, swim 8
    Feats: Weapon finesse
    Environment: Otherland marshes, lakes, rivers
    Organization: Solitary (1), pack (1-8), swarm (8-64)
    Challenge rating: 1/8
    Advancement: N/A
    Level Adjustment: N/A

    The swarmling's tongue deals nonlethal damage and provokes an attack of opportunity. Swarmlings may deal lethal damage with their tongue, but take a -4 attack penalty doing so.

    Skills:
    Swarmlings have a +4 racial bonus to hide, listen, move silently and spot checks, +8 to search, swim and climb checks, uses its dexterity to climb and swim instead of strength and can always choose to take 10 on swim and climb checks, even if threatened.

    Improved grab (Ex):
    A swarmling that strikes an opponent with its long tongue gets a grapple as a free action with no touch attack required and without provoking an additional attack of opportunity. Improved grab only works on creatures up to two sizes smaller than the swarmling.

    Constrict (Ex):
    A swarmling that has grappled an opponent may deal one point of nonlethal damage.

    Swallow whole (Ex):
    A swarmling that has grappled an opponent may initiate a new grapple check. If it succeeds, it swallows its prey but does not immediately deal damage. Swarmlings can swallow any creature up to their own size, though creatures their own size require two consecutive successful attempts.

    A creature inside the swarmling's stomach is sedated by the stomach's fluids, becoming fatigued, then exhausted, then unconscious unless they succeed a save DC of 8. The save DC is constitution based. Afterwards, they are impaled on a proboscis that deals 1 lethal pierce damage, if this attack deals damage, they take one point of strength and dexterity drain per round as their flesh is liquified and drank, followed by constitution damage, then intelligence, charisma and wisdom until all of these attributes are reduced to 0. This may be negated with a fortitude save with a DC of 8. The DC is charisma based. This process continues despite the creature's death, but only for one hour.

    A swarmling drinking a swallowed creature regenerates an additional hit point per round and if at full hit points gains one temporary hit point per round up to a maximum of 1. Creatures smaller than the swarmling take twice as many rounds to yield a hit point for each size they are smaller. When a creature's attributes all reach 0, they can no longer be used to regenerate or gain hit points, and the swarmling must eject their prey's corpse as a full-round action before they can take another one. A creature inside may free themselves by succeeding a grapple check against the swarmling or by dealing 1 point of damage with a slashing or piercing weapon.

    Voice of the cosmos (Ex):
    Once per round at the end of each round, a swarmling may make one of the following noises, with the associated effect.

    Soothe:
    All creatures within 5ft are granted a single temporary hitpoint, whether they are living or undead. While this hit point is present, the creature gains a +1 to all saving throws. Unlike an intelligent creature, a swarmling cannot differentiate between friend and foe when using this ability. This ability is harmless and allows no save.

    Celestial yip:
    All non-celestial creatures within 5ft take 1 sonic damage. Unlike an intelligent creature, a swarmling cannot differentiate between friend and foe when using this ability. A fortitude save with a DC of 8 negates the damage. The save DC is charisma-based.

    Regeneration (Ex):
    Swarmlings take nonlethal damage from all sources excluding critical hits, which deal lethal damage. Swarmlings regenerate nonlethal damage dealt to them at one point per round.

    *The traits of cosmic creatures include immunity to disease, poison and mind-affecting magic. Cosmic creatures do not truly sleep and are immune to sleep effects, and do not breathe. Cosmic creatures have d8 hit dice, all good saves, 3/4 base attack bonus, and 2 skill points per level. They are further classified into the "hybrid", "minor", "lesser", "common" and "greater" categories. Minor cosmic creatures, such as the humble swarmling, have < 5 hit dice and get +HD spell resistance, +HD natural armor and regen HD (critical), making them surprisingly resilient.

    Swarmlings are tiny hermaphroditic twelve-armed invertebrates, swarmlings have a small, bulbous body with boneless appendages reaching off it. Their body has no identifiable head, or their head has no identifiable body, but it has eyes on each side of it and the front end has a toothless mouth with an extremely long tongue. They generally weigh around 2lbs. They generally live near water, avoiding areas with large predators and feasting on insects, carrion, flora and the food stores of local inhabitants. As such, locals go to great lengths to exterminate them, even keeping pets around and encouraging children to hunt swarmlings for sport.

    Combat:
    Swarmlings are foragers, scavengers and insectivores. They rarely attack living things, excluding those fine sized and smaller which are their preferred prey. When attacking a fine-sized or smaller creature, swarmlings lash out with their tongue to grab them, and then pull them back into their mouth to swallow, their stomach liquefying and leeching them. They always will attempt to remain at full HP and with 1 temporary hit point, even though non-living food is generally a more efficient food source.

    When starving or desperate, which is common in winter, swarmlings may attack diminutive or tiny prey. They still generally avoid true predators, such as cats, dogs and humans, because doing so is suicidal. When attacking a diminutive or tiny creature, they use their tongue as a weapon to strike at the creature while either yipping to deal sonic damage.

    Defence is different. While normally docile and non-social, if one of them is attacked all the swarmlings in the area will drop what they are doing and rally to their defence. This is where they get their name. This is most dangerous in marshes and muddy lake-sides where they can attack in very large numbers. They still use their tongue as a weapon, yipping to inflict injury and attempt to drive the predator away. Their extreme weakness and slow speed, however, generally prevent this tactic from working as many predators can just kill one and run off with it before the others arrive.


    Eight of these will be enemy #3, which is an appropriate number for a 1st-level party. I don't expect them to be any harder than the other two, what with how Aelsif generally works, but they are a near-perfect counter to the hypnobaby build, due to their solid will save and immunity to both sleep and mind-affecting magic.

    Edit:
    A CR 1 Tengu doesn't get shout, they cast their spell-like abilities as a level 2 sorcerer. They only start with change self and ghost sound, they gain minor image and shout as they advance.
    Last edited by Avianmosquito; 2017-09-15 at 01:34 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Battle baby challenge

    Quote Originally Posted by Avianmosquito View Post
    Swarmlings are a very weak original monster for the Aelsif campaign setting.

    Spoiler: Swarmling (CR 1/8)
    Show

    Tiny cosmic (minor)*
    Hit dice: 1d8-1 (3hp)
    Initiative: +2
    Speed: 10ft, climb 10ft, swim 20ft
    Armor class: 5 (Base 0, +2 size +2 dex, 1 natural)
    Spell resistance: 3
    Damage reduction: 0
    Energy resistance: 0
    Base attack/grapple: 0, -12
    Attack: Tongue +4 melee (1 nonlethal bludgeon)
    Full attack: Tongue +4 melee (1 nonlethal bludgeon)
    Space/reach: 2 1/2ft, 5ft
    Special attacks: Improved grab, constrict 1, swallow whole, voice of the cosmos
    Special qualities: Regen 1
    Saves: Fort +1, ref +4, will +4
    Abilities: Str 3, Dex 15, Con 8, Int 1, Fth 14, Cha 7
    Skills: Climb 8, hide 4, listen 4, move silently 4, search 12, spot 4, swim 8
    Feats: Weapon finesse
    Environment: Otherland marshes, lakes, rivers
    Organization: Solitary (1), pack (1-8), swarm (8-64)
    Challenge rating: 1/8
    Advancement: N/A
    Level Adjustment: N/A

    The swarmling's tongue deals nonlethal damage and provokes an attack of opportunity. Swarmlings may deal lethal damage with their tongue, but take a -4 attack penalty doing so.

    Skills:
    Swarmlings have a +4 racial bonus to hide, listen, move silently and spot checks, +8 to search, swim and climb checks, uses its dexterity to climb and swim instead of strength and can always choose to take 10 on swim and climb checks, even if threatened.

    Improved grab (Ex):
    A swarmling that strikes an opponent with its long tongue gets a grapple as a free action with no touch attack required and without provoking an additional attack of opportunity. Improved grab only works on creatures up to two sizes smaller than the swarmling.

    Constrict (Ex):
    A swarmling that has grappled an opponent may deal one point of nonlethal damage.

    Swallow whole (Ex):
    A swarmling that has grappled an opponent may initiate a new grapple check. If it succeeds, it swallows its prey but does not immediately deal damage. Swarmlings can swallow any creature up to their own size, though creatures their own size require two consecutive successful attempts.

    A creature inside the swarmling's stomach is sedated by the stomach's fluids, becoming fatigued, then exhausted, then unconscious unless they succeed a save DC of 8. The save DC is constitution based. Afterwards, they are impaled on a proboscis that deals 1 lethal pierce damage, if this attack deals damage, they take one point of strength and dexterity drain per round as their flesh is liquified and drank, followed by constitution damage, then intelligence, charisma and wisdom until all of these attributes are reduced to 0. This may be negated with a fortitude save with a DC of 8. The DC is charisma based. This process continues despite the creature's death, but only for one hour.

    A swarmling drinking a swallowed creature regenerates an additional hit point per round and if at full hit points gains one temporary hit point per round up to a maximum of 1. Creatures smaller than the swarmling take twice as many rounds to yield a hit point for each size they are smaller. When a creature's attributes all reach 0, they can no longer be used to regenerate or gain hit points, and the swarmling must eject their prey's corpse as a full-round action before they can take another one. A creature inside may free themselves by succeeding a grapple check against the swarmling or by dealing 1 point of damage with a slashing or piercing weapon.

    Voice of the cosmos (Ex):
    Once per round at the end of each round, a swarmling may make one of the following noises, with the associated effect.

    Soothe:
    All creatures within 5ft are granted a single temporary hitpoint, whether they are living or undead. While this hit point is present, the creature gains a +1 to all saving throws. Unlike an intelligent creature, a swarmling cannot differentiate between friend and foe when using this ability. This ability is harmless and allows no save.

    Celestial yip:
    All non-celestial creatures within 5ft take 1d3 sonic damage. Unlike an intelligent creature, a swarmling cannot differentiate between friend and foe when using this ability. A fortitude save with a DC of 8 reduces damage to half. The save DC is charisma-based.

    Regeneration (Ex):
    Swarmlings take nonlethal damage from all sources excluding critical hits, which deal lethal damage. Swarmlings regenerate nonlethal damage dealt to them at one point per round.

    *The traits of cosmic creatures include immunity to disease, poison and mind-affecting magic. Cosmic creatures do not truly sleep and are immune to sleep effects, and do not breathe. Cosmic creatures have d8 hit dice, all good saves, 3/4 base attack bonus, and 2 skill points per level. They are further classified into the "hybrid", "minor", "lesser", "common" and "greater" categories. Minor cosmic creatures, such as the humble swarmling, have < 5 hit dice and get +HD spell resistance, +HD natural armor and regen HD (critical), making them surprisingly resilient.

    Swarmlings are tiny hermaphroditic twelve-armed invertebrates, swarmlings have a small, bulbous body with boneless appendages reaching off it. Their body has no identifiable head, or their head has no identifiable body, but it has eyes on each side of it and the front end has a toothless mouth with an extremely long tongue. They generally weigh around 2lbs. They generally live near water, avoiding areas with large predators and feasting on insects, carrion, flora and the food stores of local inhabitants. As such, locals go to great lengths to exterminate them, even keeping pets around and encouraging children to hunt swarmlings for sport.

    Combat:
    Swarmlings are foragers, scavengers and insectivores. They rarely attack living things, excluding those fine sized and smaller which are their preferred prey. When attacking a fine-sized or smaller creature, swarmlings lash out with their tongue to grab them, and then pull them back into their mouth to swallow, their stomach liquefying and leeching them. They always will attempt to remain at full HP and with 1 temporary hit point, even though non-living food is generally a more efficient food source.

    When starving or desperate, which is common in winter, swarmlings may attack diminutive or tiny prey. They still generally avoid true predators, such as cats, dogs and humans, because doing so is suicidal. When attacking a diminutive or tiny creature, they use their tongue as a weapon to strike at the creature while either yipping to deal sonic damage.

    Defence is different. While normally docile and non-social, if one of them is attacked all the swarmlings in the area will drop what they are doing and rally to their defence. This is where they get their name. This is most dangerous in marshes and muddy lake-sides where they can attack in very large numbers. They still use their tongue as a weapon, yipping to inflict injury and attempt to drive the predator away. Their extreme weakness and slow speed, however, generally prevent this tactic from working as many predators can just kill one and run off with it before the others arrive.


    Eight of these will be enemy #3, which is an appropriate number for a 1st-level party. I don't expect them to be any harder than the other two, what with how Aelsif generally works, but they are a near-perfect counter to the hypnobaby build, due to their solid will save and immunity to both sleep and mind-affecting magic.

    Edit:
    A CR 1 Tengu doesn't get shout, they cast their spell-like abilities as a level 2 sorcerer. They only start with change self and ghost sound, they gain minor image and shout as they advance.
    Yep, they definitely counter her spells, but in this case the dog and hawk will hopefully pick them off easily enough - the attacks of opportunity will be the key thing.

    I have to make 2 points, though:

    1) CR is balanced around a party of 4 PCs

    2) Those creatures are more than CR 1/8. 8 of them will be dealing 8 points of sonic damage per round (at an absolute minimum!), they could easily be a TPK even for a party of 4 characters.

    Re: Tengu, ah righto I just googled them quickly. In that case she's got a better chance of winning then.

    Edit: Compare your swarmlings, with their numerous powers, to a CR 1/8 rat.
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-09-15 at 01:17 AM.

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