LGBTAI+ #59: Will You Take This Woman To Be Your Galpal?

[Lycunadari]

This site has a lot of trans related therapists/doctors etc., but it's probably best if he gets in contact with a local trans group- they often have their own lists, including information like "charges a ton of money for letters of indication, but is fine if you can afford it", "needs to be called everyday for a week to get an appointment, but when you have an appointment he's really good", "is the first one who comes up in a google search but is actually awful" etc- stuff that you wont find in public lists but is really helpful. Finding a group in Munich should be easy enough.

[Rydiro]

Ah, you know, it´s one of _those_ days.

You know, one of these when one of the people you work with outs him/her/itself as having an afghan lover, then as being bi and being secretly in love with one girl, then moths later as being trans and wanting to transition F2M? Now I'm cool with all that, but now I'm asked to find a good psychiatrist in Munich/Bavaria to get the prep work done and, well, I'm lost there.

Sounds a little wild. You know, it needs psychiatrist approval for a reason.

[halfeye]

Sounds a little wild. You know, it needs psychiatrist approval for a reason.

That reason being that he needs a medic to write a prescription for the meds needed to begin the biological transition.

ect

In case you don't know, this is a typo; "etc." is a short version of "et cetera" which is latin for "and the rest".

[Lycunadari]

In case you don't know, this is a typo; "etc." is a short version of "et cetera" which is latin for "and the rest".

Yup, that was a typo, I have shaky hands today. I know where that acronym comes from.

[Florian]

Sounds a little wild. You know, it needs psychiatrist approval for a reason.

It´s actually not that weird. Jaqueline is a bit of a freak, but overall a nice lad. Thing is, she understood pretty early what is going on with her and has an overall more or less accepting environment, but is rather thin-skinned and frustrated around certain topics, like having had multiple miscarriages and one of them in the phase when she was already sure to transition, so she is looking for a psychiatrist that is not only "qualified" but also "able and understanding" to work with her.

[KyooTrap]

Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... I have a new partner to join the poly family and the NRE is soooo nice, they're super cute and I can't stop thinking about them. I just love being turbo gay tbh. Sighh...

[super dark33]

Being Turbo Gay is the best form of Gay and Turbo to be

[Malozing]

How is everyone doing? It's been a while since I stuck my head in here.

Life has been stressful for my family and me, but my partner and I worked hard to make sure the necessary steps were taken. Now things are looking up.

[Dire Moose]

Thought I’d drop in to say I’m really enjoying life as a girl and thank you for helping me realize it was actually possible.

[Lentrax]

Just a reminder that today is the Transgender Day of Remembrance, where we remember those of us who are no longer here because of hate.

Take a moment today, and tell a trans person you know that they aren’t alone. Reach out. Lend a hand.

And remember those of us who are no longer here.

[DarthArminius]

I'm sorry to have to ask for help, yet again, for the billionth time. Can someone PM me ?

[Lentrax]

Did everyone survive the holidays?

[LaZodiac]

Barely, but yes. My Mom basically didn't try at all to use my proper gender, and got mad at me over something stupid. Everything else was good.

Also my aunt got me a very emotional, symbolic gift. When I was born a family member gave me a Hush Puppy hand puppet to grow alongside me. It's old and faded and missing pieces now, but I still have it. My aunt got me a new one to represent my rebirth due to my transition. We both cried, it's one of the most meaningful gifts I've ever received.

[137beth]

Barely, but yes. My Mom basically didn't try at all to use my proper gender, and got mad at me over something stupid. Everything else was good.

Also my aunt got me a very emotional, symbolic gift. When I was born a family member gave me a Hush Puppy hand puppet to grow alongside me. It's old and faded and missing pieces now, but I still have it. My aunt got me a new one to represent my rebirth due to my transition. We both cried, it's one of the most meaningful gifts I've ever received.

Good that you have at least one supportive relative.

[TaiLiu]

Happy new year and new decade to everyone here! Admittedly, it's not the Gregorian new year anywhere in the world, but those in UTC +14:00 have less than an hour, and I'm unlikely to log on again before the Gregorian new year passes worldwide.

I don't really post in this thread anymore, but the LGBTAI+ thread played a real important role in my self-understanding and self-development this decade, as I'm sure it did for many of you, too. I figured I ought to pay some small tribute, even if it's only a few pixels on a page. Thanks to all of you who were around when I was. And for those who have yet to join, I hope that this thread can play a small part in your life, too. For those of us queer and trans, this thread is a genuine oasis.

---

Barely, but yes. My Mom basically didn't try at all to use my proper gender, and got mad at me over something stupid. Everything else was good.

That sounds super frustrating and upsetting, especially over the holidays.

Also my aunt got me a very emotional, symbolic gift. When I was born a family member gave me a Hush Puppy hand puppet to grow alongside me. It's old and faded and missing pieces now, but I still have it. My aunt got me a new one to represent my rebirth due to my transition. We both cried, it's one of the most meaningful gifts I've ever received.

That's beautiful! I'm so so happy for you, LaZodiac, and I hope the gift augurs good tidings.

[The Fury]

I've been wanting to ask for advice on something for a while. I've been putting it off since it's feels pretty minor compared to what other folks are dealing with. One of the struggles with the LGBTQ experience is... labels. That is trying to find one that fits amid people in your life that apparently know better. Especially when consensus is the one that fits you best "isn't really a thing."

Specifically, I feel like I'm demisexual panromantic. Maybe it's something that requires too much explanation as to what that actually means so it's easily dismissed. I'm mostly just sort of... hangin' out in the closet mostly. I am out to people that I feel like would understand, but not out to most people in my life.

[LaZodiac]

I've been wanting to ask for advice on something for a while. I've been putting it off since it's feels pretty minor compared to what other folks are dealing with. One of the struggles with the LGBTQ experience is... labels. That is trying to find one that fits amid people in your life that apparently know better. Especially when consensus is the one that fits you best "isn't really a thing."

Specifically, I feel like I'm demisexual panromantic. Maybe it's something that requires too much explanation as to what that actually means so it's easily dismissed. I'm mostly just sort of... hangin' out in the closet mostly. I am out to people that I feel like would understand, but not out to most people in my life.

I'm admitidly a bad person to give advice on this for a number of reasons but if someone asks what you mean just say it means exactly what they think it means. Labels are, ultimately, for other people to use as shorthand to identify you. For good or ill, there's always going to be some roughness with that, so making it an explicit statement of "I don't actually really care that much this is the one that fits the best near as I can tell, it means what it means" would probably make it easier.

Also they can't say you are X, and then say X "isn't really a thing" because there you are, right there, you are X. X=The Fury. So I'd just kinda live your life.

[Kesnit]

Specifically, I feel like I'm demisexual panromantic. Maybe it's something that requires too much explanation as to what that actually means so it's easily dismissed. I'm mostly just sort of... hangin' out in the closet mostly. I am out to people that I feel like would understand, but not out to most people in my life.

I'm admitidly a bad person to give advice on this for a number of reasons but if someone asks what you mean just say it means exactly what they think it means.

I 100% disagree with saying this. I know how I would interpret that phrase, but my meaning may not be at all what The Fury means.

(Puts on old-timer hat)
I've been a part of the LGBT community (before all the rest of the letters were added) for over 20 years. When I came out, the letters were fairly straightforward. As time (decades!) passed, more terms came into use. But you know what was never done? Definitions! Could someone please explain the difference between demi- and pan- to me? (Please don't. It's a rhetorical question for the sake of the argument I'm making.) Every time someone tries to explain what a label means to them, I get a different answer - even for the same label.

So if you want people to understand what you are - TELL THEM YOUR DEFINITION. In plain terms!

[Mith]

I've been wanting to ask for advice on something for a while. I've been putting it off since it's feels pretty minor compared to what other folks are dealing with. One of the struggles with the LGBTQ experience is... labels. That is trying to find one that fits amid people in your life that apparently know better. Especially when consensus is the one that fits you best "isn't really a thing."

Specifically, I feel like I'm demisexual panromantic. Maybe it's something that requires too much explanation as to what that actually means so it's easily dismissed. I'm mostly just sort of... hangin' out in the closet mostly. I am out to people that I feel like would understand, but not out to most people in my life.

For clarification of my perspective (as I don't spend any time in this part of the internet), I personally see labels as a necessary evil in that they are precisely inprecise. For me, my perspective on my personal orientation has basically reached the point of "complicated mess, but "bisexual" keeps it within a comfortable character limit". Not to say that anyone else's use of labels for self understanding or communicating ideas is wrong, but I think focusing on labels as identifiers, rather than just short hand for broader ideas, is a futile purpose. But I don't have a solid bedrock that makes one label speak to me over others.

I second Zodi's point in that labels are only really useful to help process and communicate ideas. External confirmation for validity isn't really a thing (and gate keeping healthy sexual orientation is pure [insert frivolous flinging of flavourful fricatives] bull****).

You are you, and you are valid. I don't know the people you have issues with, but it may be good to remind them that they do not know the whole of human experiences. If you tell them you are demisexual panromantic, then that is that. They can inquire about your experiences, but they cannot deny those experiences.

Anyways, to those who may see this, I wish you all a happy New Year!

[The Fury]

Thanks to everyone that offered up their advice. And even if you didn't, I like you anyway.

I'm often around people that are more interested in telling me why I'm wrong, and it's made me go a little crazy in my own head. I'm not sure how or if I'll change in how I present myself, but if nothing else, I feel a little better about it.

[Mystic Muse]

I am doing okay, though I have not gotten to start transitioning yet. The hope is this year.

I will likely not be posting in this thread again. For reasons I can't really get into, I am most likely leaving the forum for good in a while. Somewhere between a week, and after my birthday (February 21st.)

Hope things go well for all of us this year.

PM me if you want my Discord information.

[Anymage]

Thanks to everyone that offered up their advice. And even if you didn't, I like you anyway.

I'm often around people that are more interested in telling me why I'm wrong, and it's made me go a little crazy in my own head. I'm not sure how or if I'll change in how I present myself, but if nothing else, I feel a little better about it.

This is a thing that drives me nuts in a lot of circles, treating labels as keywords. This often involves assuming that these keywords have more to them than just what's plainly on the tin. Either going to logical contortions to attach a popular keyword to themselves (to make up an example, someone who tries to add the trans tag to themselves despite being perfectly happy expressing and identifying with their birth sex), or else adding extra crud for gatekeeping purposes (e.g: insisting that you aren't really gay if you aren't a gold star gay).

In either case, I'm a much bigger fan of linguistic descriptivism. You can be interested in anybody, but you take a long time to get really engaged. I guess to some degree having words for it can help you see that you aren't some freakish exception. But for the most part, only use the words to the degree that they clarify communication (long rant about academic-ish obscuratinism here removed for space), and don't worry about what keywords other people might or might not attach.

[Themrys]

Thanks to everyone that offered up their advice. And even if you didn't, I like you anyway.

I'm often around people that are more interested in telling me why I'm wrong, and it's made me go a little crazy in my own head. I'm not sure how or if I'll change in how I present myself, but if nothing else, I feel a little better about it.

Why tell people everything about your attraction, actually? Especially if they want to tell you you are wrong.

Just say you are bi, if you need to weed out those who'd have a problem with it.

Everything else is specifics that are really only important to those you actually are attracted to.


Labels are overestimated. They might be useful for online dating purposes, but in real life? You don't really need one. You don't need to justify your no by telling people that you consider yourself demisexual. No means no, period. You are allowed to have boundaries, you need no label to justify them.

[The Fury]

This is a thing that drives me nuts in a lot of circles, treating labels as keywords. This often involves assuming that these keywords have more to them than just what's plainly on the tin. Either going to logical contortions to attach a popular keyword to themselves (to make up an example, someone who tries to add the trans tag to themselves despite being perfectly happy expressing and identifying with their birth sex), or else adding extra crud for gatekeeping purposes (e.g: insisting that you aren't really gay if you aren't a gold star gay).

In either case, I'm a much bigger fan of linguistic descriptivism. You can be interested in anybody, but you take a long time to get really engaged. I guess to some degree having words for it can help you see that you aren't some freakish exception. But for the most part, only use the words to the degree that they clarify communication (long rant about academic-ish obscuratinism here removed for space), and don't worry about what keywords other people might or might not attach.

Gatekeeping is something that I worry about in general. Maybe it's unfounded, but the possibility of having a conversation around, "No, I am supposed to be here." scares me. Especially since I "pass" for straight and look a little like I should be at a chilli cookoff. I say that it might be unfounded because most LGBTQ people I meet are actually nice to me, (I do get crap from some straight people though.)

Why tell people everything about your attraction, actually? Especially if they want to tell you you are wrong.

Just say you are bi, if you need to weed out those who'd have a problem with it.

Everything else is specifics that are really only important to those you actually are attracted to.


Labels are overestimated. They might be useful for online dating purposes, but in real life? You don't really need one. You don't need to justify your no by telling people that you consider yourself demisexual. No means no, period. You are allowed to have boundaries, you need no label to justify them.

I guess when people actually ask me what I am, I get hung up on labels because I like to be able to answer honestly. I'm not really bi, I'm not really ace. But sometimes I feel a little like both. It doesn't help that bi and ace people all too often aren't understood properly. Throwing in that I'm attracted to people outside the gender binary and that I'm not sexually interested unless there's a strong romantic connection muddles the issue further.

I'm right with you as far as boundaries go though. There have been a few points that I have been asked to justify a "no," and it wasn't fun. (Ultimately, the "no" stood and I got home safe in case you were worrried.)

[Themrys]

I guess when people actually ask me what I am, I get hung up on labels because I like to be able to answer honestly. I'm not really bi, I'm not really ace. But sometimes I feel a little like both. It doesn't help that bi and ace people all too often aren't understood properly. Throwing in that I'm attracted to people outside the gender binary and that I'm not sexually interested unless there's a strong romantic connection muddles the issue further.

I'm right with you as far as boundaries go though. There have been a few points that I have been asked to justify a "no," and it wasn't fun. (Ultimately, the "no" stood and I got home safe in case you were worrried.)

Eh, honesty is about telling people what they need to know to make the decisions they want to make. If people label themselves as being outside the gender binary, they might want to know that you could be attracted to them. However, to those people who don't, "bi" contains enough information.

I am hetero, pretty much only attracted to men who look like androgynous elves, and not interested in sex outside of a committed relationship.

All that matters to people I'm not interested in anyway is the hetero part.

[TinyMushroom]

As someone who's nonbinary, I don't feel like the distinction between being bi and pan matters that much. Like, it's cool that people want to specifically include nb people. And if the label holds value for you, that's great! Really don't want to invalidate pan people, but practically I don't feel bi people really use their label to explicitly exclude nb people either. To me it feels more like 'bi' is used simply because it's the most common term for attraction regardless of gender. I think a relationship with an nb person will come down way more to how that person specifically expresses their gender identity, and how supportive you are towards their feelings and behavior.

I don't know, keep calling yourself pan if you want. I just wanted to give some reassurance that I don't really think bi is offensive or exclusive either and it's totally fine to use it if it's easier to explain to people. I feel like the separation between the two terms is not entirely necessary.

[The Fury]

Eh, honesty is about telling people what they need to know to make the decisions they want to make. If people label themselves as being outside the gender binary, they might want to know that you could be attracted to them. However, to those people who don't, "bi" contains enough information.

I am hetero, pretty much only attracted to men who look like androgynous elves, and not interested in sex outside of a committed relationship.

All that matters to people I'm not interested in anyway is the hetero part.

That's a fair point. I feel like I might be holding onto some concerns that were more relevant to a me from some years ago. I used to have some friends acquaintances that really did make me feel like I needed to offer well-reasoned explanation for things that I did or felt. One of these people once opined that bisexuality isn't a thing "psychologically speaking." There was someone else that said my lack of sexual interest was just me being "uptight."

I mostly got shamed into silence back then. Things are different now though. I feel like I know that intellectually, but maybe haven't fully internalized it yet.

As someone who's nonbinary, I don't feel like the distinction between being bi and pan matters that much. Like, it's cool that people want to specifically include nb people. And if the label holds value for you, that's great! Really don't want to invalidate pan people, but practically I don't feel bi people really use their label to explicitly exclude nb people either. To me it feels more like 'bi' is used simply because it's the most common term for attraction regardless of gender. I think a relationship with an nb person will come down way more to how that person specifically expresses their gender identity, and how supportive you are towards their feelings and behavior.

I don't know, keep calling yourself pan if you want. I just wanted to give some reassurance that I don't really think bi is offensive or exclusive either and it's totally fine to use it if it's easier to explain to people. I feel like the separation between the two terms is not entirely necessary.

I appreciate you saying that. Though in my case, I feel like the "pan" identity speaks a little more true than the "bi" one does. I will admit that "bi" might be useful as a quick, (fairly) easily-understood term.

[Themrys]

That's a fair point. I feel like I might be holding onto some concerns that were more relevant to a me from some years ago. I used to have some friends acquaintances that really did make me feel like I needed to offer well-reasoned explanation for things that I did or felt. One of these people once opined that bisexuality isn't a thing "psychologically speaking." There was someone else that said my lack of sexual interest was just me being "uptight."

I mostly got shamed into silence back then. Things are different now though. I feel like I know that intellectually, but maybe haven't fully internalized it yet.

I see.
Seems you spent way too much time with terrible people.

If anyone demands justification for someone not being sexually interested in them (or anyone else, for that matter), and/or belittles them for said lack of interest, that's a huge red flag and a cue to run away very fast.

That's why I never would justify my lack of attraction to someone in any way - I'd be already busy running away.

(Granted, in very threatening situations, it can be wise to give the guy a false phone number, tell him that it's not him, it's your big, strong boyfriend, and then walk away slowly ... but any verbal justification would just be part of the running away process. I wouldn't do it in order to stay friends with people who call me uptight.)

[Anymage]

I appreciate you saying that. Though in my case, I feel like the "pan" identity speaks a little more true than the "bi" one does. I will admit that "bi" might be useful as a quick, (fairly) easily-understood term.

To repeat something I said upthread. Sometimes specialized terms like that are useful to discuss finer points when talking with people who are also used to specialized terms for finer points. And sometimes they're useful so people can see a label, realize that it applies to them, and realize that there are other people going through the same sort of thing that you are. In general usage, though, often all you need is to communicate the most basic idea. Info beyond that isn't really necessary, and can often come off as trying too hard. The cashier at the grocery store probably doesn't need to know your custom pronouns, for instance.

I see.
Seems you spent way too much time with terrible people.

If anyone demands justification for someone not being sexually interested in them (or anyone else, for that matter), and/or belittles them for said lack of interest, that's a huge red flag and a cue to run away very fast.

Having seen the sort of person that The Fury is talking about, it's less about getting someone else to sleep with them or their friends, and more about roundly castigating anybody who believes things at odds with their world view. They aren't saying you're a trash person for not going out with them specifically. They're saying you're a trash person because you care about something like weight, partner count, or HSV status when those are things that the larger community has decreed Should Not Matter.

They're still horrible people who should be avoided when possible and not taken as a serious source on anything. But they're more like religious moral bullies who try to bludgeon you with a cause (heavily influenced by their own tastes and spin, natch) than sexual bullies who try to badger you out of being such a prude.

[The Fury]

Having seen the sort of person that The Fury is talking about, it's less about getting someone else to sleep with them or their friends, and more about roundly castigating anybody who believes things at odds with their world view. They aren't saying you're a trash person for not going out with them specifically. They're saying you're a trash person because you care about something like weight, partner count, or HSV status when those are things that the larger community has decreed Should Not Matter.

They're still horrible people who should be avoided when possible and not taken as a serious source on anything. But they're more like religious moral bullies who try to bludgeon you with a cause (heavily influenced by their own tastes and spin, natch) than sexual bullies who try to badger you out of being such a prude.

That's closer to what they were like, yeah. I don't think any of them were sexually interested in me. Then again, my self-esteem was so low at the time that I couldn't fathom anyone being interested in me. They weren't nice people though. While I see that now, having people that say and believe things like that in my life didn't do me any favors. In particular, because it was familiar, it felt normal. At least I saw it as normal enough that I wasn't sure I was correct about bisexuality, (in how it related to me and others,) or even whether or not I was uptight.

I don't see or speak to these people anymore, and I'm better for it.