My friend doesn't like my character being good

[Twizzly513]

Backstory:
In d&d, my friends and I are playing an evil campaign, and there are two players and the DM. I am playing a wizard and he is playing a rogue. Long story short about my wizard, he's a necromancer with a famous hero-father who swore to become more powerful than their father and not mess up where he had, and he wants to eventually become a lich to get their. He also worships Vecna, and he's got the Vecna holy symbol on his spellbook and such. I wanted him to be sensible so I made Wisdom his second score, and took a feat for some cleric cantrips and such, to fit the Vecna thing. My friend (henceforth referred to under the pseudonym "Joe") is playing a tiefling rogue who is a thief and wants money. The in-game reason our characters are together is that my wizard needs a people person, and his character finds a wizard's utility spells useful.

Problem:
That is the premise, but here's what's going on. It started when I began compiling a list/plan of what my goal was, such as how to make my secret lair and how to protect/hide phylacteries. He didn't like that I was doing it but never really voiced why. Fast forward a bit, we were playing and he got really angry and refused to play one day because his character was "useless" in utility and combat. The DM and I, who have a better understanding of the game mechanics, explained that wizards are utility casters, so the utility was normal, and in combat he wasn't doing well because he never approached things differently than a fighter. He would simply go into melee. For instance, we were in a library and had just found a secret door when we heard a patrol coming nearby, we knew the people here didn't speak our language, so I began to cast Comprehend Languages, but his character didn't move during this time, and later complained that there was nothing he could have done. Later, we leveled up to 6, and it occurred to me for the first time that I might want to multiclass to cleric. I worshiped Vecna, had the holy symbol, high Wisdom, Vecna was Knowledge domain, it all seemed so mechanically and thematically perfect, and the DM said he'd even let me switch the feat for cleric spells I took for a different one. Joe began to complain that I shouldn't be able to multiclass because it didn't fit my character at all. I said of course it did, I had always worshiped Vecna. He said that since I was evil I didn't want to rely on others, which included a god. The DM ruled that I could multiclass. Then I began to choose which feat I'd switch out for, and I wanted to use one from an Unearthed Arcana article from 5e, and I checked with the DM. We had used UA before, so I figured he'd be alright with it, which he was. Joe found out that was happening and made a fuss about how it was too good. I do know that Joe hasn't looked at the feats, because he claimed that none of the 5e feats increased a stat by 1. If you don't play 5e, probably about 10 in the Player's Handbook do. The DM ruled that I could take the feat. I also got to learn two languages from being a Knowledge cleric. I already knew Common, Elvish, Dwarvish, and Giant, so I chose Draconic and Infernal. I checked with the DM to make sure I could take exotic languages since it was from a divine source and no other languages I took would probably be useful. He agreed that exotic languages made sense and that I could take them. Joe said this was entirely unfair because he once had to learn exotic languages by putting things in his backstory. At that time, his character only knew two languages, so the DM said that was why, and my backstory reason was that mine were from a god.

Hypothesis:
I think that Joe doesn't like that my character is ending up more useful than his, partly because I understand mechanics better, partly because my backstory was more in depth, which leads to better roleplaying, and partly because he doesn't quite understand how to really play a rogue.

Question:
Joe is a good friend of mine. How can I make him feel better without making my character worse?

[comk59]

I think the issue is that your didn't inform your friend about class tiers, and that a Rogue will be overshadowed and rendered moot by a Wizard in short order.
At this point you might as well tell him to just kill off his character and roll up a tier 1 character like you did.

[Lacco]

...help him make his character better...?

[Pilo]

Let's blame you! (Because you kind of blame him all along the speach you gave)

You seem to have invest a lot of time in your character and in the game, I think Joe did not. Maybe it pleases your GM and so he plays more with you than with Joe.
So you had a better start at the game, and the gap is expanding. If you want Joe to be interested, help him close the gap. Ask your GM to give him a backstory, with some revelation about his story (how he was born, what his thief guild is becoming,...) You and your GM have to give him some space in the story to shine.

Which edition are you playing?

[Telonius]

One point to clarify (and this will actually matter for some of the advice) - is the campaign you're in generally 3.x, or is it 5e? I'm not familiar with how 5e plays, but 3.x is infamous for caster/mundane disparity. It doesn't just have a power gap, it has a gaping chasm littered with partially-charged wands and the torn-up character sheets of adventurers past.

In general, it sounds like he's frustrated. I'd suggest talking to him some time that's not in the gaming session. You'll need to come to some sort of a compromise. Either tone down your own character, get him up to speed, or some combination of the two. The DM should be involved in this discussion too (though not necessarily present at everything). It's possible your friend is looking for a more hack and slash sort of campaign, and the encounters you've been getting haven't been tailored to that. It's not all on the DM, but if he's built a Fighter, he ought to get some chance to actually Fight.

[Haldir]

I think the issue is that your didn't inform your friend about class tiers, and that a Rogue will be overshadowed and rendered moot by a Wizard in short order.
At this point you might as well tell him to just kill off his character and roll up a tier 1 character like you did.

The differences between wizards are rogues are not as large in 5e. The player in question should be able to contribute just fine if he uses his abilities.

OPs wizard should learn either Animate Dead or Find Familiar to give permanent advantage to the rogue via the a minion and the Help action, allowing for constant sneak attacks. Invisibility on the Rogue to set up ambushes and scouting. Bless as concentration to give your Joe a vital boost.

Joe should be looking for ways you guys can work together. Your wizard should make plans to utilize your respective talents. I've never known a wizard worth his INT that would mind buffing up someone else in exchange for standing in front of enemy pointy/stabbies.

Complaining to the DM about another players build is uncool. So the DM should address that. Above are things you can do, though.

Edit- OP does specify 5e, friendos.

[comk59]

The differences between wizards are rogues are not as large in 5e. The player in question should be able to contribute just fine if he uses his abilities.

OPs wizard should learn either Animate Dead or Find Familiar to give permanent advantage to the rogue via the a minion and the Help action, allowing for constant sneak attacks. Invisibility on the Rogue to set up ambushes and scouting. Bless as concentration to give your Joe a vital boost.

Joe should be looking for ways you guys can work together. Your wizard should make plans to utilize your respective talents. I've never known a wizard worth his INT that would mind buffing up someone else in exchange for standing in front of enemy pointy/stabbies.

Complaining to the DM about another players build is uncool. So the DM should address that. Above are things you can do, though.

Edit- OP does specify 5e, friendos.

I totally missed the 5e references, that one's on me.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Complaining to the DM about another players build is uncool. So the DM should address that. Above are things you can do, though.

To able to say that means that you have not seen the glory of the half-fiend ranger/ranger.

More on topic: reading OP'S story I see a lot of the DM granting you special considerations and privileges but doing nothing of the same for the rogue. Part of the problem could simply be that you, who are overall stronger than him anyways, are getting even more cool shinies while he is being left behind in both shinies and relevance. RedressING that would be advisable.

[Haldir]

To able to say that means that you have not seen the glory of the half-fiend ranger/ranger.

More on topic: reading OP'S story I see a lot of the DM granting you special considerations and privileges but doing nothing of the same for the rogue. Part of the problem could simply be that you, who are overall stronger than him anyways, are getting even more cool shinies while he is being left behind in both shinies and relevance. RedressING that would be advisable.

So far most of these replies have served as a living endorsement for why I was right to graduate to 5e. Haha.

As a DM I understand how easy it is to encourage a player who is willing and dedicated as opposed to a player who just grumbles. Yes, Joe's DM needs to address this, but it seems Joe is in need of an attitude change as well.

[Jay R]

Learn Cat's Grace (or the 5e equivalent), and a few other spells to buff his character. If his problem is that his character isn't powerful enough, well, that's fixable - he's traveling with a wizard.

[Nifft]

Buy the Rogue a nice BMX bike.

Then have him watch these: https://youtu.be/Sr-PSjHEk_M

[2D8HP]

....it seems Joe is in need of an attitude change as well.

I admit that the caster/UA talk is over my head, but really why is your friend in your grill about your PC?

9/10th's of my 5e D&D PC's are Fighters, Rogues or Fighter/Rogues (I've also played two level one 5e Barbarians, before that I played mostly Fighters and Thieves in 0e and 1e), and my PC's can:

Fire arrows

Swing swords

Track

Sneak

Hide

Climb

Swim

Sometimes Convince

Sometimes heal

And one could entertain

I feel no lack.

Yes my co-players often play casters, and they do cool things, that's part of the fantastic world I'm playing the game to explore. I enjoy the wonder of what their doing, I don't bust out a scale to measure power, 'cuz that's not me business!

My business is putting arrows and crossbow bolts into antagonists that get close to my comrades.

I like playimg Rogues (and/or Fighters).

I just don't get your friend.

[Rynjin]

Part of the issue is he's got to be having a hell of a hard time getting Sneak Attack in with a 2 man party, one of whom is a squishy caster that wants to stay far away from melee. Given that a Rogue without Sneak Attack IS basically useless in a fight, I can see why he'd be frustrated already.

Show him the Swashbuckler class spec from SCAG and see if the GM might let him swap to that. That would make combat a lot less of a chore at least. "Approaching things differently than a fighter" essentially means only attack once every two rounds as a 5e Rogue.

As for utility, he gets quite a few skill proficiencies he should be putting to good use. Deception and Persuasion can do a lot on the social front, and the GM should be giving him opportunities to use those and all his other skills besides. If he's not, there's the source of his other issue.

Rogues (and non-casters in general) are locked in on what they can do any given day, while Wizards aren't. That can rankle quite a bit.

I admit that the caster/UA talk is over my head, but really why is your friend in your grill about your PC?

9/10th's of my 5e D&D PC's are Fighters, Rogues or Fighter/Rogues (I've also played two level one 5e Barbarians, before that I played mostly Fighters and Thieves in 0e and 1e), and my PC's can:

Fire arrows

Swing swords

Track

Sneak

Hide

Climb

Swim

Sometimes Convince

Sometimes heal

And one could entertain

I feel no lack.

Yes my co-players often play casters, and they do cool things, that's part of the fantastic world I'm playing the game to explore. I enjoy the wonder of what their doing, I don't bust out a scale to measure power, 'cuz that's not me business!

My business is putting arrows and crossbow bolts into antagonists that get close to my comrades.

I like playimg Rogues (and/or Fighters).

I just don't get your friend.

The problem lies, as in any edition, in the fact that a Wizard (or insert other spellcaster here) can do all of those things as well. And also cast spells.

The problem is particularly bad in 5e in some ways, given that skill DCs tend to need to be pretty low since skill proficiencies are sparse and bonuses are generally very low, with the vast bulk of any skill check being determined by attribute bonuses, and not proficiency (which for the majority of play is only a +2-3 bonus, while attribute bonuses can hit +4-5 early on). Given that, a lot of DCs are sub-20, so a decent roll can let everyone in the party move along. And if they can't, that's what spells are for.

[RazorChain]

I admit that the caster/UA talk is over my head, but really why is your friend in your grill about your PC?

9/10th's of my 5e D&D PC's are Fighters, Rogues or Fighter/Rogues (I've also played two level one 5e Barbarians, before that I played mostly Fighters and Thieves in 0e and 1e), and my PC's can:

Fire arrows

The Wizard will be throwing fireballs or something similar

Swing swords

The wizard can swing his staff...or better yet animate dead to swing swords for him.

Track

The wizard will become a cleric and just ask his god where the tracking quarry is and then he'll just scry on him.

Sneak

The wizard will just turn himself invisible

Hide

The wizard will just turn himself invisible or polymorph himself into a fly

Climb

And the wizard will be flying or teleporting

Swim

The wizard doesn't have to swim because he'll be breathing under water....he'll just walk there...or teleport....or fly

Sometimes Convince

No need, the wizard will just charm people or better yet just mind control them...or read their thoughts

Sometimes heal

The wizard turned cleric will have done that already

And one could entertain

The wizard will make his minions do that....is the rogue one of his minions?

I feel no lack.

Neither do I, especially if I play the wizard/cleric

[Lacco]

Neither do I, especially if I play the wizard/cleric.

Neither do I, especially since I don't play D&D

Still: do you think there are any ways how to fix this within D&D? Either by other players or by any other way?

[Nifft]

Still: do you think there are any ways how to fix this within D&D? Either by other players or by any other way?

Sure, just play PCs which are all within a tier of each other.

The problem arises when you've got a T1 (an "angel summoner") in the same group as a T4 (a "BMX bandit").

[Mordaedil]

Neither do I, especially since I don't play D&D

Still: do you think there are any ways how to fix this within D&D? Either by other players or by any other way?

The biggest misnomer about D&D balance is the idea that this is something that needs fixing.

They look like problems, but they are tools. In an actual game, if you had played it, you wouldn't notice it, because it rarely rears its ugly head in any actual game. It's a problem in theory-crafting and if your players decide that they want to play something that isn't D&D while using D&D.

The limits of the given tools of any wizard is that his toolbox is on a limited use every day and everything has timers that can expire, or attracts the attention of counter-agents that a mundane character would not. Turning invisible seems like a great option for the wizard in terms of subterfuge, until you realize that it doesn't make you soundless and that certain creatures can still spot you, heck even mundanes can assuming they can pass a DC40 spot check.

Another limitation in factor is that the wizard doesn't have all the spells always available to him, he can prepare some of them during play, but he can't just do it for any immediate situation that calls for an unexpected eventuality right now. Even the massive theorycrafters in D&D seem to assume based on extremely lenient interpretations of rules in their favor rather than the DM shooting them down at any opportunity.

And a good DM can always do well by any given player. Even in this situation it kinda falls to the DM ruling favorably in favor of the wizard, but the rogue made his own mess by never really asking the DM for anything. And the more you talk with the DM, the more sway you have in the campaign.

[weckar]

The Rogue needs other bodies on the field to do most of his combat schtick. Summon him a fighting partner or something.

[Lacco]

The biggest misnomer about D&D balance is the idea that this is something that needs fixing.

Check my question again, please.

I'm not asking anyone to fix the D&D balance or the caster/whatever disparity. My question is: what to do in case we have situation like this (which is not the first of this kind I have seen mentioned here).

I agree with the rest of your post - in my view, GM could fix it by providing more opportunities to the rogue, especially while challenging the spellcaster (e.g. there are two simultaneous threats in a situation - and the spellcaster can't solve them both at once => both have to work to overcome them), as well as helping out with the character (Elan's "dashing swordsman" is good example). But based on what OP stated, I think it's beyond basic repairs - the guy's becoming irritated and at that point logical arguments/suggestions fail very often.

[Science Paladin]

Firstly I would say to change the "my friend doesn't like my character being good" to "my friend's character is overshadowed in game".

I agree with the thread here, and it's a common problem in D&D. One player knows more about D&D so he makes a more powerful character, catches the DMs attention more, and gets more out of it. It's just how things go without care.

Giving his character a boost would definitely be a good thing. Personally, as a DM, when I see this happening I like to throw a template to the faltering character (half fae, half vampire, something small but significant). The power boost lets them compete and it gives their character a new flavour.

Also, consider plot. If he's not engaged, bring him to the centre of attention. You mentioned a backstory for your character, but your friend doesn't seem as good at making them up, so the DM should lend a hand. Maybe he'll discover he's descended from a great hero, or there's a curse in his blood, or he's a chosen one... As a wizard, you're always special. Give the guy with black robes and a knife something too.

Finally, you said you don't want your character weakened...but why not? Honestly, if it made the game balanced and made your characters work together better, it could be worth it. Doesn't have to be long term either. If you quested for a few hours in an anti magic field of some kind, with the rogue suddenly carrying the lost wizard and solving puzzle himself, it'd give him a real boost.

So, short version; give him a boost, work with him and the DM to make his character as special as yours. It's easily doable if you want to do it.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Buy the Rogue a nice BMX bike.

Then have him watch these: https://youtu.be/Sr-PSjHEk_M

"Or... I could just summon some angels?"

[Lord Raziere]

See this is the problem with DnD: people thinking they're the victim when they are the ones ruining other peoples fun with their optimizing nonsense, its stupid.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

See this is the problem with DnD: people thinking they're the victim when they are the ones ruining other peoples fun with their optimizing nonsense, its stupid.

I'd chalk it up to the system design, given that you have to intentionally handicap yourself if you don't want to optimize.

[Nifft]

See this is the problem with DnD: people thinking they're the victim when they are the ones ruining other peoples fun with their optimizing nonsense, its stupid.

They are the victim of some poor game design, and they are the victim of false advertising.

The PHB presents the 11 core classes as if they were equally good choices. The PHB is lying about this.

[Rynjin]

See this is the problem with DnD: people thinking they're the victim when they are the ones ruining other peoples fun with their optimizing nonsense, its stupid.

Ah, yes, choosing base class options the game provides and taking an option (multiclassing) that makes you a good deal weaker in the long term in this case sure is fun ruining "optimizing", yes sir.

[Tinkerer]

See this is the problem with DnD: people thinking they're the victim when they are the ones ruining other peoples fun with their optimizing nonsense, its stupid.

I'd disagree with this one pretty strongly as well. Particularly considering they're playing 5th where the split is nowhere near as big. Now granted as a GM I never would have allowed the feat change when multi-classing but really the heart of the issue here appears to be that the other player isn't playing his role. If you were to pick a wizard and try to go swinging into combat then yeah, you're going to get beat down. Same deal if you try and play a rogue as a fighter.

[Lord Raziere]

They are the victim of some poor game design, and they are the victim of false advertising.

The PHB presents the 11 core classes as if they were equally good choices. The PHB is lying about this.

That too. Bad on multiple levels.

Ah, yes, choosing base class options the game provides and taking an option (multiclassing) that makes you a good deal weaker in the long term in this case sure is fun ruining "optimizing", yes sir.

See, posts like this is what I'm talking about: optimizers think that innocent ignorance is willful bad choices and that these choices should be bad to protect their own conceit that they're better than the people because they made the choice of choosing a class that arbitrary makes some more powerful no reason. then they act as if the person who doesn't know what they're doing is the one ruining their fun, when no one expects someone to ruin everyone elses fun just because of one choice at the start of the game that no one realizes is so pivotal.

Then they act as if someone points that out is referring to the victim, the one who doesn't optimize and just trying to enjoy the game rather than break it. The optimizer not realizing through their cognitive dissonance that their own abilities is whats causing the other person to feel useless for one choice they didn't know was bad, because the choice should've never BEEN bad in the first place! galling, absolutely galling.

[Rynjin]

That too. Bad on multiple levels.



See, posts like this is what I'm talking about: optimizers think that innocent ignorance is willful bad choices and that these choices should be bad to protect their own conceit that they're better than the people because they made the choice of choosing a class that arbitrary makes some more powerful no reason. then they act as if the person who doesn't know what they're doing is the one ruining their fun, when no one expects someone to ruin everyone elses fun just because of one choice at the start of the game that no one realizes is so pivotal.

Then they act as if someone points that out is referring to the victim, the one who doesn't optimize and just trying to enjoy the game rather than break it. The optimizer not realizing through their cognitive dissonance that their own abilities is whats causing the other person to feel useless for one choice they didn't know was bad, because the choice should've never BEEN bad in the first place! galling, absolutely galling.

Do you have anything relevant to the thread at hand to add, or would you like to incoherently rant some more...?

[Lord Raziere]

Do you have anything relevant to the thread at hand to add, or would you like to incoherently rant some more...?

I already have made something relevant, its pointing out one of the real problems at work here that causes things like this to happen. Do you have anything relevant, or would like to make more snarky comments because you can't be bothered to respond properly?

[Rynjin]

I already have made something relevant, its pointing out one of the real problems at work here that causes things like this to happen. Do you have anything relevant, or would like to make more snarky comments because you can't be bothered to respond properly?

What response is there?

You're pissed off at the very fact that the OP wrote Wizard on his character sheet and used that as a springboard to whine about those dirty filthy optimizers ruining everything for everyone.

Which isn't relevant to this thread. At all.

It does not address the issue the OP has: His friend is unsatisfied with what he can do in-game and is starting to become frustrated with OP because of it.

Other people have given advice, including myself.

You have come into the thread to...what? How does your comment help? Where does it advance the conversation to a solution for OP's game? What is its purpose in this context? Why did you think your posts needed to be made?