THE best Two weapon fighter

[Aximili]

I searched the forum, and found nothing regarding this.

The matter is quite simple: which is the best Two weapon fighting Combo/Build?
The only critteria is that it... well... fights with two weapons. Not unarmed strikes, or natural attacks, or shield bashings.

And just to be specific, as "best" I mean "best combination of damage, attack bonus, AC, and HP for a few rounds". That is good at combat in general, and not just stupendous damage at the first round at the cost of to-hit.

Sorry if I'm being picky, I was curious as to what was THE two weapon fighting build. You hear about shock troopers and the trip monley battlefield controller, but I don't recall having seen a TWF build that shadows the other.

[Talkkno]

MOst likely something in here..
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=629013
Though, I'd like to warn you a two handed one is most likely superior in most situations.
For humor

[Zincorium]

Revenant blade from the eberron setting + frenzied berserker. With leap attack and spirited charge. And whatever else floats your boat.

Revenant blade's capstone ability is that both sides of a double scimitar are considered two handed weapons for the purposes of power attacking and strength bonus. And this is at level five, for a prc that'd be pretty cool without it.

So, x4 return and 1.5 x (really freaking high) strength, for both, along with the 18-20 crit range. The fact that you're only doing a base d6 is pretty much totally irrelevant. Start with ranger 2/barbarian 1/fighter 2 to meet all of the prereqs and go crazy. Use the barbarian variant from complete champion to remove the inability to power attack on a charge, revenant blades do very well from horseback so speed isn't a problem.

Edit:

Talkkno, could you pretty pretty please put spoiler tags on the comic? It's funny and all, but it takes up way too much space.

[Mr. Moogle]

Easy... a fighter with weapon proficiency bastard sword, two weapon fighting, and oversized two wepon fighing (complete adventurer).

Its by far the best build ive ever seen/created beacause the penaltys are -2/-2 and you do 2d10 a round.

EDIT: using the same mechanic with Warmaces (1d12 damage) is actually better

[Arbitrarity]

Revenant blade from the eberron setting + frenzied berserker. With leap attack and spirited charge. And whatever else floats your boat.

Revenant blade's capstone ability is that both sides of a double scimitar are considered two handed weapons for the purposes of power attacking and strength bonus. And this is at level five, for a prc that'd be pretty cool without it.

So, x4 return and 1.5 x (really freaking high) strength, for both, along with the 18-20 crit range. The fact that you're only doing a base d6 is pretty much totally irrelevant. Start with ranger 2/barbarian 1/fighter 2 to meet all of the prereqs and go crazy. Use the barbarian variant from complete champion to remove the inability to power attack on a charge, revenant blades do very well from horseback so speed isn't a problem.

You can already power attack on a charge. The variant is pounce, so you can full attack. Don't forget shock trooper and leap attack, for a shiny *6 (or is it *5? ) return, and no pain on your attack rolls.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Well, I'm looking at something like a Fighter/Swashbuckler/Exotic Weapon Master.

Use Kamas. Free Weapon Finesse, Insightful Strike. Bonus feats coming out of unspeakable places which will allow you to do things besides two-weapon fight.
(I'm imagining Improved Cleave and Greater TWF working in Unholy Co-ordination, here.)

[Arbitrarity]

Meh. If multiweapon fighting is legal, a thri-kreen with revenant blade and FB would probably be best. (if possible pre-epic). With a 6* return on PA, 14 attacks, pounce, and shock trooper, +19 BAB, we can get a shiny 2016 damage before strength, enhancement, or base weapon damage.

[Aximili]

now that you guys mentioned it, I do recall having heard of a PrC with double scimitars, I'll take a look at it.

And by the way, I know twf is not as effective as thf, not a problem. Actually, I don't even know if these informations will once become a character of mine. I'm just looking around for inspiration.

EDIT:
But what about the ToB? Do Swordsages and Warblades make lousy TWFers?

[Zincorium]

You can already power attack on a charge. The variant is pounce, so you can full attack. Don't forget shock trooper and leap attack, for a shiny *6 (or is it *5? ) return, and no pain on your attack rolls.

Grr, I got all garbled up, but trust me, I did know what I intended to say regardless of the blatantly wrong results. Leap attack kind of adds weirdly with supreme power attack, so be sure and download the latest errata if you're going to use it, as it stands you gain a *5 return, as you're adding 300% of power attack damage to your base 100% (a 2 for 1 return) for supreme power attack and then another 100% from leap attack, for a total of 500% of normal power attack damage.

Or at least that's what I got from it, this is getting to the complexity level of turning or grapples.

Shock trooper is wonderful if you can get the spare feats for it, through flaws or whatever, as it is the prereqs for revenant blade and frenzied berserker take up all feats you normally get with the build I mentioned up til you start taking frenzied berserker. And that's still without improved or greater TWF, which you'll have to spend the feats at 12, 15, or 18 on.

Meh. If multiweapon fighting is legal, a thri-kreen with revenant blade and FB would probably be best. (if possible pre-epic). With a 6* return on PA, 14 attacks, pounce, and shock trooper, +19 BAB, we can get a shiny 2016 damage before strength, enhancement, or base weapon damage.

Thri-keen cannot even take revenant blade without significant houseruling, as not only does it have a racial prerequisite, it also has a racial-only feat as a prerequisite.

Thri-keen aren't elves, they eat elves.

[Arbitrarity]

Ah, never mind

This is a result of not knowing the prereqs on a PrC. I'll go with you here then, as 2HF with two weapons is basically better.

To quote: "Elf meat is like SOLID CRACK to Thri-Kreen"

[goat]

So it might need a few levels of Ruathar too...

[Arbitrarity]

A swordsage with Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose, and shadow blade for dex to damage, as well as weapon finesse, isn't too shabby. Dex and wis to damage, 18 attacks, 10 of those at max to-hit.

[brian c]

now that you guys mentioned it, I do recall having heard of a PrC with double scimitars, I'll take a look at it.

And by the way, I know twf is not as effective as thf, not a problem. Actually, I don't even know if these informations will once become a character of mine. I'm just looking around for inspiration.

EDIT:
But what about the ToB? Do Swordsages and Warblades make lousy TWFers?

A swordsage with Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose, and shadow blade for dex to damage, as well as weapon finesse, isn't too shabby. Dex and wis to damage, 18 attacks, 10 of those at max to-hit.

Tiger Claw maneuvers are great for TWF. The Bloodclaw Master PrC can take away all TWF attack penalties (if you're using Tiger Claw weapons). Girallon Windmill Fleshrip is a Tiger Claw maneuver that gives you rend damage based on how many attacks hit, so Raging Mongoose+Time Stands Still+GWFR can do some ridiculous damage (course, you'd have to be Swordsage 20 to do two boosts at once, as a Warblade or Bloodclaw it's not quite as potent).

[Aximili]

Tiger Claw maneuvers are great for TWF. The Bloodclaw Master PrC can take away all TWF attack penalties (if you're using Tiger Claw weapons). Girallon Windmill Fleshrip is a Tiger Claw maneuver that gives you rend damage based on how many attacks hit, so Raging Mongoose+Time Stands Still+GWFR can do some ridiculous damage (course, you'd have to be Swordsage 20 to do two boosts at once, as a Warblade or Bloodclaw it's not quite as potent).

The problem with Bloodclaw master is that you have to choose between taking away the penalties or benefiting from Shadow Blade.
And the swordsage really seems to lack the feats needed for a TWFer, though a couple levels of fighter can certainly solve that.


And as for the Revenant Blade, it is so obviously a combo-machine! And, all in all, it really looks like a very inventive class feature.

[NEO|Phyte]

The problem with Bloodclaw master is that you have to choose between taking away the penalties or benefiting from Shadow Blade.

How so? The TWF penalty removal does not require being in a Tiger Claw stance, and daggers and unarmed strikes both overlap in regards to weapons that function for both abilities.

[Aximili]

How so? The TWF penalty removal does not require being in a Tiger Claw stance, and daggers and unarmed strikes both overlap in regards to weapons that function for both abilities.

Actually, I said it because the 2 disciplines had no weapons in common (except for unarmed strike, but I'm counting it out). But, or course, I had forgotten that the PrC allows daggers too.

[Zincorium]

Actually, I said it because the 2 disciplines had no weapons in common (except for unarmed strike, but I'm counting it out). But, or course, I had forgotten that the PrC allows daggers too.

Daggers...the bread and meat of most good TWF builds.

[RAGE KING!]

Easy... a fighter with weapon proficiency bastard sword, two weapon fighting, and oversized two wepon fighing (complete adventurer).

Its by far the best build ive ever seen/created beacause the penaltys are -2/-2 and you do 2d10 a round.

EDIT: using the same mechanic with Warmaces (1d12 damage) is actually better

meh, you can do better than that with less feats and oversized weapons. I guess this is a bit off topic, but I was wondering if there was any way to get no penalties with two weapon fighting.

[Reel On, Love]

The best (reasonable) Strength-best two-weapon fighter is the Revenant Blade/Frenzied Berserker mentioned previously.

The best Dex-based is either a Swordsage 14/Bloodclaw Master 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 2 or a Cloistered Cleric 4/Swordsage 1/Ordained Champion 5/Church Inquisitor 10, thanks to the Complete Champion (and Knowledge Devotion, Gauntlets of War, the Holy Warrior reserve feat, Ordained Champion's Fist of the Gods ability, etc)--I've seen a build that winds up doing over 50 damage with each of eight attacks, and can cast 9th-level spells to boot.

ETA Bloodclaw Master, like Jack mentioned, to the Swordsage build.

[Jack Mann]

Two levels of bloodclaw master are damned near mandatory for a good two-weapon specialist. Loss of penalties and full strength to the off-hand? Yes please! Add in shadow blade for daggers (or the unarmed swordsage variant) and you've got something tasty going on.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Swordsage. Tiger Claw + Shadow Hand. Duo-wielding weapons will give you insane bonuses, and plenty of Shadow Hand stuff gives you additional precision damage on all strikes, like Assassin's Stance. Don't forget Desert Wind for extra mobility and damage output.

Alternately, if you're wanting insane precision damage...

Rogue X/Fighter2/Sorc1/Nightsong Enforcer/Dervish

Sorcerer dip gives you Golembane and one other spell of choice. You can't use it from an item because it only works on attacks done that round, so you need a dip to get it. Since this also gives you the ability to use any wand you want without needing UMD, this is worth the level dip. Nightsong Enforcer gives full BAB and Sneak Attack progression. Dervish lets you dish out insane number of attacks.

As another alternate...

Rogue 7/Shadowdancer 2/Swordsage 2/Nightsong Enforcer9

This build focuses entirely on a TWF rogue. Here's the fun part... for Rogue, trade up Evasion for Spell reflection (Complete Arcane or maybe Complete Mage, can't remember) and trade up Uncanny Dodge for the PhBII variant which lets you give a target a -5 to AC instead of sneak attacking. Why? Well, Shadowdancer 2 gives you both evasion and uncanny dodge anyways, so you're effectively getting free extra benefits. Swordsage not only gives you maneuvers which can make your opponent flat-footed, for sneak attacking, and touch attacks, for when opponent is already flat-footed to make sure you can't miss, but you also get a couple of stances. I'd suggest Assassin's Stance for +2d6 Sneak Attack and Wall of Blades for vastly easier flanking, which gives sneak attacks. And of course, Nightsong Enforcer for more SA goodness with full BAB.

[The Gilded Duke]

meh, you can do better than that with less feats and oversized weapons. I guess this is a bit off topic, but I was wondering if there was any way to get no penalties with two weapon fighting.

Be an Ettin. Unfortunatly the wording of improved two weapon fighting and other feats sets your penalty at a different number, instead of lowering the penalty, or giving you a bonus to attack.

Not quite the same thing, but I usually prefer Flurry of Blows builds or additional attacks upon hit build. (Fist of Forest, Snap Kick, Frostrager)

Warforged/Fist of Forest/Frostrager is one build I have been tinkering with for a while. Warforged can use battlefists, which allow them to use the battlefist to give natural attacks and unarmed strikes weapon abilities, while you use the amulet of natural attacks to give attack bonuses. Battlefist also increases natural attack and unarmed strike size by one.

Four attacks on a charge without using spells is nice. Can get an additional one if you pick up two weapon pounce... but that requires dex and too many feats.

If you are allowed to use alternate class features use a Lion Totem (Complete Champion version) and Whirling Frenzy (Unearthed?) Barbarian getting in. Extra attack while raging and pounce.

Spoiler

Show

What is confusing me about the build is how the various methods of unarmed strike levels work. Frostrager specifically sets unarmed strikes at a certain amount during a rage. Fist of Forest specifically sets unarmed strikes at a better level. Are these treated as size increases, or just specifically being set?

One of my favorite ones is a bit odd:
Monk/Druid/Psionic Fist/Illithid Slayer

Monk gives you access to Flurry of Blows. Quarterstaffs are a flurryable weapon, and can be wielded two handed. A level of druid gives you Shilleagh which makes a non magical quarterstaff do damage as if it was two size categories bigger. Then use the psionic warrior enlarge power. Then use psionic lion's charge. Try to use enough of Illithid Slayer to get you four attacks by 20th level (or otherwise arrange things to get the most attacks possible)

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I guess this is a bit off topic, but I was wondering if there was any way to get no penalties with two weapon fighting.

The Tempest prestige class from Complete Adventurer.

[Jack Mann]

Or the aforementioned bloodclaw master, for just a two-level investment.

[brian c]

Or the aforementioned bloodclaw master, for just a two-level investment.

With certain weapons (although I don't know enough about Tempest to say what restrictions, if any, are on that).

Also, I think there's an epic feat, but frankly if you're in Epic levels and you're doing TWF then it doesn't matter what feats you have, you're dead anyway.

[Leon]

The Tempest prestige class from Complete Adventurer.

I like that with a lead in of Ranger to cover the Prereq's - while not fully utilizing the benifits of the class i use a Quarterstaff and the Style feat from complete warrior = Lots of style and beating on things with 6ft of solid Darkwood

[Swooper]

Warblade 14/Swordsage 5/LT Barbarian 1 (with the Whirling Frenzy variant).

Relevant feats? Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike, Snap Kick, Greater Two Weapon Fighting and, the kicker, Stormguard Warrior. All prereq feats of course.

Important gear? Valorous Speed Shortsword, Valorous Speed Longsword, Master Tiger Claw Bracers with Raging Mongoose, Gloves of Dex +6, Belt of Str +6. Useful: Boots of Striding & Springing, or other speedboosting item.

Important manouvers? Shadow Blink. Others, like Raging Mongoose, Avalanche of Blades, White Raven Tactics and Lightning Recovery, are optional.

Tactics:
Round 1: Charge+rage. Full attack via pounce, use Raging Mongoose now, all attacks are touch attacks according to Combat Rythm from SGW. On the enemy's turn he will likely full attack you, assuming four attacks and two of which hit, you get 6 AoOs from Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike. Use Channel the Storm here, forfeiting your AoOs. No damage done this round.

Round 2: Shadow Blink 50' away, charge again. Full attack with pounce. The valourous weapons double the damage here, and with all the stacking effects of combat rythm and channel the storm, the total damage here is ludicrous. Also, all attacks are at +24 to hit, so they shouldn't miss. The avarage damage, assuming no criticals is... hold tight:

2090. (Might vary a bit depending on individual Str score, this is assuming a total of 30 with gloves belt)

Let me know if you want the detailed calculations. This build is not created by me, I'm only the messenger. Also, this is extremely cheesy. Don't use this.

[Prince_of_Blades]

What about Master Thrower? Use daggers with Shadow Blade and the Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike. Add in some Bloodstorm Blade to get your daggers to come back. You can get a massive number of (touch) attacks, with Dex and Int to damage.

[Telonius]

I suppose I'd be pelted with tomatoes if I suggested a Wizard who summoned something that fights with two swords ...

[brian c]

Warblade 14/Swordsage 5/LT Barbarian 1 (with the Whirling Frenzy variant).

Relevant feats? Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike, Snap Kick, Greater Two Weapon Fighting and, the kicker, Stormguard Warrior. All prereq feats of course.

Important gear? Valorous Speed Shortsword, Valorous Speed Longsword, Master Tiger Claw Bracers with Raging Mongoose, Gloves of Dex +6, Belt of Str +6. Useful: Boots of Striding & Springing, or other speedboosting item.

Important manouvers? Shadow Blink. Others, like Raging Mongoose, Avalanche of Blades, White Raven Tactics and Lightning Recovery, are optional.

Tactics:
Round 1: Charge+rage. Full attack via pounce, use Raging Mongoose now, all attacks are touch attacks according to Combat Rythm from SGW. On the enemy's turn he will likely full attack you, assuming four attacks and two of which hit, you get 6 AoOs from Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike. Use Channel the Storm here, forfeiting your AoOs. No damage done this round.

Round 2: Shadow Blink 50' away, charge again. Full attack with pounce. The valourous weapons double the damage here, and with all the stacking effects of combat rythm and channel the storm, the total damage here is ludicrous. Also, all attacks are at +24 to hit, so they shouldn't miss. The avarage damage, assuming no criticals is... hold tight:

2090. (Might vary a bit depending on individual Str score, this is assuming a total of 30 with gloves belt)

Let me know if you want the detailed calculations. This build is not created by me, I'm only the messenger. Also, this is extremely cheesy. Don't use this.

That's pretty impressive. The Swordsage build that I presented for the Balor Marathon challenge did 500 or so damage on average in the first round of combat, minimum 270, and that was dual-wielding Kukris, so good chance of criticals.

I suppose I'd be pelted with tomatoes if I suggested a Wizard who summoned something that fights with two swords ...

No, you'd be pelted with tomatoes if you suggested an Artificer with two wands though.