(Pathfinder) Is this balanced? "Magic Missile Swarm"

[Fiery Diamond]

Name: Magic Missile Swarm

School: evocation [force]; Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V,S
Range: medium (100 feet plus 10 feet/level)
Targets: up to 20 creatures, all of which must be in the same semicircle (caster at circle's center)
Duration: instantaneous
Saving Throw: none; Spell Resistance: yes

This spell functions the same way as magic missile, except the targets need not be so close together and there are more missiles, a total of one per caster level (maximum 20).

Is this balanced as a greater version of magic missile?

[nonsi]

.
210 hp damage potential (empowered and maximized) seems a bit too much for a 3rd level spell - even if it's only vs. a single opponent.

[rferries]

As a 3rd-level spell, it should cap out at 10 missiles (see below). The area is a bit unusual, to streamline it I'd make it "Targets: Up to ten creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart". Otherwise a cool spell!

Typical Caster Level Dice Caps By Spell Level
1st: 5
2nd: 10
3rd: 10
4th: 15
5th: 15
6th: 20
7th: 20
8th: 25
9th: 25

[aimlessPolymath]

Looks fine to me?
A damage rate of 1d4+1 per caster level, to a single target, seems OK.
Maximised increases damage output to 5/CL, and empower increases it by about 1.5 or 1, depending on your reading of Empower Spell, so I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from, nonsi.

[rferries]

Looks fine to me?
A damage rate of 1d4+1 per caster level, to a single target, seems OK.
Maximised increases damage output to 5/CL, and empower increases it by about 1.5 or 1, depending on your reading of Empower Spell, so I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from, nonsi.

I think he's taking the worst-case scenario (where you naturally roll maximum damage, then maximise and empower that result).

In reality, assuming you roll average damage: (0.5*3.5*20)[Empowered damage] + (5*20)[Maximised Damage] = 135 average damage from the spell.

Compare polar ray at 20th level: (3.5*20) = 70 average damage, shorter range, one target only, need touch attack to hit, and cold damage instead of force (so lots of creatures will have resistance or immunity to it).

This is a good example of why damage caps are useful - without them metamagic makes lower-level spells too powerful (assuming you care about limiting evocation like this, I actually prefer to let them run free :D).

[nonsi]

Looks fine to me?
A damage rate of 1d4+1 per caster level, to a single target, seems OK.
Maximised increases damage output to 5/CL, and empower increases it by about 1.5 or 1, depending on your reading of Empower Spell, so I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from, nonsi.

Right. I counted d6s instead of d4s.
So that makes it a maximum of 5 * 20 * 150% = 150. Still seems a bit high, given it's a force effect. Capping the spell at 15 missiles would probably make it ok.

[Rynjin]

Capping it at 10 missiles makes it about where it should be. Then you can pump metamagic to make it better if you like (Intensified for up to 15 missiles, Empowered, etc.).

That gives it an average of 30 damage, roughly equivalent to the average damage of an unmodified Fireball (or Battering Blast, for a single target equivalent, but nobody uses that spell), with a higher minimum damage (20 vs 10) lower maximum (50 vs 60), and no saves or attack rolls to worry about. The Fireball is better at attacking multiple targets, while the MMS is better at single targets.

[jqavins]

Compared to MM alone it would seem all right. But MM is overpowered to begin with.

The average damage on MM, which allows no saving throw, is the same at even caster level and a smidgeon better at odd caster level than FB or LB when the opponent(s) save. Since powerful opponents usually do save, it's a fist level spell that stacks up respectably next to third level spells. Granted, MUs need something good at first level, so there's nothing wrong with letting them have this one.

But doubling the number of missiles in the third level version makes the average damage the same as the other third level biggies but with no save, so double the average damage you usually manage to inflict!

Therefore, I think it's a bit much.

(I have a fix for MM that I've yet to post, that gives two missiles at first level, but grows the number of missiles slower thereafter so that by the time the caster reached fifth level it's a little bit behind FB and LB, and falls further behind with increasing level.)

[Fiery Diamond]

As a 3rd-level spell, it should cap out at 10 missiles (see below). The area is a bit unusual, to streamline it I'd make it "Targets: Up to ten creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart". Otherwise a cool spell!

Typical Caster Level Dice Caps By Spell Level
1st: 5
2nd: 10
3rd: 10
4th: 15
5th: 15
6th: 20
7th: 20
8th: 25
9th: 25

Keep in mind, though, that most (read - all the ones that follow this rule without being ridiculously underpowered; and evocation is underpowered anyway) spells following this are area effect. Example of a spell that wildly breaks this rule, and which I think is in line with how evocation should be powered: Contagious flame. Level 6, maximum dice damage of a whopping 60d6 at maximum level (assuming you read the "3 rounds" to include the first round), though, with a potential to damage a single target for 40d6 and another for 20d6. It requires lots of attack rolls, yes, but it still breaks the damage cap rule significantly.

I think he's taking the worst-case scenario (where you naturally roll maximum damage, then maximise and empower that result).

In reality, assuming you roll average damage: (0.5*3.5*20)[Empowered damage] + (5*20)[Maximised Damage] = 135 average damage from the spell.

Compare polar ray at 20th level: (3.5*20) = 70 average damage, shorter range, one target only, need touch attack to hit, and cold damage instead of force (so lots of creatures will have resistance or immunity to it).

This is a good example of why damage caps are useful - without them metamagic makes lower-level spells too powerful (assuming you care about limiting evocation like this, I actually prefer to let them run free :D).

I'm with you on wanting evocation to run free - evocation is generally underpowered. Polar ray is one of the most underpowered of them all, being way too high level for way too little damage. It also is why I don't think that's a worthwhile spell to make comparisons to. Spells like Magic Missile and Contagious Flame are my preferred balance point.

Compared to MM alone it would seem all right. But MM is overpowered to begin with.

The average damage on MM, which allows no saving throw, is the same at even caster level and a smidgeon better at odd caster level than FB or LB when the opponent(s) save. Since powerful opponents usually do save, it's a fist level spell that stacks up respectably next to third level spells. Granted, MUs need something good at first level, so there's nothing wrong with letting them have this one.

But doubling the number of missiles in the third level version makes the average damage the same as the other third level biggies but with no save, so double the average damage you usually manage to inflict!

Therefore, I think it's a bit much.

(I have a fix for MM that I've yet to post, that gives two missiles at first level, but grows the number of missiles slower thereafter so that by the time the caster reached fifth level it's a little bit behind FB and LB, and falls further behind with increasing level.)

This post is actually the most helpful and informative. I thought it seemed pretty reasonable compared to Magic Missile, and you agreed - you just think it's a bit much compared to other spells and outline your reasons. I still think that the fact that it's not area of effect but rather "one or more opponents" should be counted a lot more heavily, though. In general, I think one should do calculations assuming variation between one target and three or four targets, rather than simply comparing against one target.

Assuming we're using spells like Magic Missile and Contagious Flame as our balance point, does this spell seem OK?

[Fiery Diamond]

I think he's taking the worst-case scenario (where you naturally roll maximum damage, then maximise and empower that result).

In reality, assuming you roll average damage: (0.5*3.5*20)[Empowered damage] + (5*20)[Maximised Damage] = 135 average damage from the spell.

Compare polar ray at 20th level: (3.5*20) = 70 average damage, shorter range, one target only, need touch attack to hit, and cold damage instead of force (so lots of creatures will have resistance or immunity to it).

This is a good example of why damage caps are useful - without them metamagic makes lower-level spells too powerful (assuming you care about limiting evocation like this, I actually prefer to let them run free :D).

I just noticed: that's a really bizarre reading of empowered and maximized. I've never seen that reading before. I've only ever seen 2 readings: that they don't stack at all, or that the extra damage from empowered is also maximized. That second reading is the reading the person upthread was using.

Depending on whether the +1 per die gets empowered (does it count as a random part or not?), I can see two possibilities for MAX+EMP using that reading.

1) 1.5 x (5 x CL) = 150 at 20th
2) 1.5 x (4 x CL) + CL = 140 at 20th

[nikkoli]

So maxi empowered on this would be an 8th level spell (3 base +3 max +2 empower) to do [how I always have read and used the combo ] (4+1)*level*1.5 for 150 at level 20 for an 8th level spell. Now if you rolled perfect that would be a 1.099e+12 chance of happening as a 3rd level spell at level 20 so I'd be fine with those odds.

This spell is pretty similar to chain missile (spc iirc) but that capped at 10d4+10 but each missile bounced out to a second target as well.
I would let this spell fly in the game I gm.

[tedcahill2]

I'm totally okay with it doing 1 missile per level, but I would make it so no one target can be hit by more than 5 missiles.

[rferries]

I just noticed: that's a really bizarre reading of empowered and maximized. I've never seen that reading before. I've only ever seen 2 readings: that they don't stack at all, or that the extra damage from empowered is also maximized. That second reading is the reading the person upthread was using.

Depending on whether the +1 per die gets empowered (does it count as a random part or not?), I can see two possibilities for MAX+EMP using that reading.

1) 1.5 x (5 x CL) = 150 at 20th
2) 1.5 x (4 x CL) + CL = 140 at 20th

"An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result."

First, fair warning that I've never actually applied both feats to a spell! But to me, the above would indicate that you calculate it by:

(Maximised result) + (0.5)x(normally rolled result) = total result

The more favourable mechanics would grammatically be:

"An empowered, maximized spell gains the cumulative benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half times the maximum result."

[rferries]

Also, no argument about evocation being weak! I've tried alternately to phase it out entirely or buff it up, haha.