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Thread: the druid

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    Hey, my group of DND players are getting together one last time before we all split off this year for our freshmen year of college, and i noticed a few days ago people were saying druids were one of the most powerful classes after wizards but before clerics.

    My group had come to the consensus that druids were pretty week in most all respects, so could someone tell me, how and why they're so strong, so when we reconvene after fall break, I'll have them all convinced it would be better for me to play a druid than a cleric, and that the guy piddling around with his monk who cant hit anything needs to get it together

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    "I am a giant bear that casts spells. I rule melee and force the fighter to carry my stuff when I'm not using it, since lord knows he'd only get in my way in a fight. What I can't rip apart physically I toss spells at, if I don't just use those spells to make myself even more powerful. And when I get tired, here's my companion, Commander Snugglepuff the Dire Lion."
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    I think Jack Mann just summed it all up.
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    Default Re: the druid

    my thoughts exactly...

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    At level 1, you can pick up a war-trained Riding Dog animal companion. Slap barding on it. It's now got more AC and HP than the fighter, plus it can trip with each hit. If you want, you can Shillelagh a quarterstaff and go to town yourself, but you're likely to have dumped your physical stats, because...

    At level 5, you get Wild Shape; at level 6, you get it twice per day and take Natural Spell. That means that you can be in Wild Shape all day and cast spells in it, making your physical stats (except CON) irrelevant.

    Your animal companion keeps improving--the Crocodile can be a mean grappler at level 4, especially if you get to pick its feats and have it take Improved Grapple. At level 7, the Giant Crocodile is deadly in a grapple (and very good out of it), and the Brown Bear has three big attacks.

    You get a variety of buffs for yourself and your animal companion (Barkskin, Bull's Strength, Greater Magic Fang), control spells (Entangle, Wall of Thorns, Control Winds), and you can summon even MORE allies, especially with the Augment Summoning feat. Summon Nature's Ally is better than Summon Monster. I mean, consider an 11th-level druid--he fires off a Summon Nature's Ally VI for a Dire Bear one round, and uses Animal Growth on it and his Dire Lion animal companion the next. The bear and lion proceed to make mincemeat of the enemy--even assuming that the druid (also in Dire Lion form) doesn't join in and help.

    Oh, and you can heal in a pinch, too.

    The druid is crazy powerful. Better melee than the melee classes, decent full spellcasting, lack of need for more stats (you only really need CON and WIS; INT can help); decent skills and skill points...

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    9th level spellcasting = incredibly strong

    That's with nothing else coming into play, and no other class features. For everything else, re-read The Jack Mann Post.

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    Wow, I dont get how they could have overlooked it, I was kind of green in the first place so when they said a cleric would be more useful I went with it. But shoot, I hadnt realized it could be that powerful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspeeker View Post
    Wow, I dont get how they could have overlooked it, I was kind of green in the first place so when they said a cleric would be more useful I went with it. But shoot, I hadnt realized it could be that powerful.
    Hey, it's okay--clerics are powerful, too. Clerics, Druids, and Wizards are the major leagues.

    For a cleric, you'll want the War domain (if core-only), Power Attack, maybe Expertise/Imp. Trip if you have the INT for it or Divine Might if you have CHA, and Quicken Spell at 9th. Scribe Scroll is actually not a bad choice.

    At low levels, cast Divine Favor and wade into melee.
    At mid-levels, cast Divine Power and wade into melee.
    At slightly higher mid-levels, cast Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor and wade into melee. If you have a round before a big fight to prepare, cast Righteous Might, too.
    At higher levels, cast Quickened Divine Power + Righteous Might, with a Quickened Divine Favor the next round.
    At level 17+, that's Quickened Divine Power + Miracle(emulate Giant Size or Bite of the Werebear), Quickened Divine Favor the next round.

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    Also, if you have access to MM3, the Fleshraker Dinosaur is an uber animal, both for wildshape and for an animal companion. On a charge, they pounce, trip, grapple, and poison. In one round. I imagine that a druid wildshaped as a Fleshraker Dinosaur with another one as a companion and summoned elementals in tow will bugger you with a cactus.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Mann View Post
    "I am a giant bear that casts spells. I rule melee and force the fighter to carry my stuff when I'm not using it, since lord knows he'd only get in my way in a fight. What I can't rip apart physically I toss spells at, if I don't just use those spells to make myself even more powerful. And when I get tired, here's my companion, Commander Snugglepuff the Dire Lion."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Hey, it's okay--clerics are powerful, too. Clerics, Druids, and Wizards are the major leagues.

    For a cleric, you'll want the War domain (if core-only), Power Attack, maybe Expertise/Imp. Trip if you have the INT for it or Divine Might if you have CHA, and Quicken Spell at 9th. Scribe Scroll is actually not a bad choice.

    At low levels, cast Divine Favor and wade into melee.
    At mid-levels, cast Divine Power and wade into melee.
    At slightly higher mid-levels, cast Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor and wade into melee. If you have a round before a big fight to prepare, cast Righteous Might, too.
    At higher levels, cast Quickened Divine Power + Righteous Might, with a Quickened Divine Favor the next round.
    At level 17+, that's Quickened Divine Power + Miracle(emulate Giant Size or Bite of the Werebear), Quickened Divine Favor the next round.
    Well my cleric definately doesnt have the war domain, I wanted to be true neutral, none of those deities have it, but thank you guys, other than the fact that druids dont get resurrection there is no real reason they can fight this evidence. You all were real big helps here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Hey, it's okay--clerics are powerful, too. Clerics, Druids, and Wizards are the major leagues.

    For a cleric, you'll want the War domain (if core-only), Power Attack, maybe Expertise/Imp. Trip if you have the INT for it or Divine Might if you have CHA, and Quicken Spell at 9th. Scribe Scroll is actually not a bad choice.

    At low levels, cast Divine Favor and wade into melee.
    At mid-levels, cast Divine Power and wade into melee.
    At slightly higher mid-levels, cast Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor and wade into melee. If you have a round before a big fight to prepare, cast Righteous Might, too.
    At higher levels, cast Quickened Divine Power + Righteous Might, with a Quickened Divine Favor the next round.
    At level 17+, that's Quickened Divine Power + Miracle(emulate Giant Size or Bite of the Werebear), Quickened Divine Favor the next round.
    The war domain isn't that great. You'll want a domain that gives you access to some good special abilities and spells. Travel, trickery, or luck, for example. Martial weapons aren't that important, A morningstar is a pretty solid weapon regardless. (good) Clerics can also spontaneously cast healing spells so that's more attractive but between rods and having a couple heals prepared it's not that important either.
    Last edited by Cybren; 2007-08-14 at 09:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspeeker View Post
    Well my cleric definately doesnt have the war domain, I wanted to be true neutral, none of those deities have it, but thank you guys, other than the fact that druids dont get resurrection there is no real reason they can fight this evidence. You all were real big helps here.
    You're kidding right? You can carry out Reincarnation cheese and just rack up 3*Infinity Wis/Int/Cha bonuses from aging, if you can find a way to pick say, a Half-Orc, or one of those races that dies of old age in 20-40 years. If you can convince your DM to allow True Reincarnation from Masters of the Wild/Defenders of the Faith(one of those 2), or can find it reprinted somewhere else, you get 2 rolls, which practically guarantees no sucky forms. Oh, and pick one of those Fatespinner/Luckstealer type abilities that lets you reroll dice. And find some way to get spells cast over you when you die(for example, if you tell Captain Snugglepuff to rip you to shreds the moment you hit the last age category).
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    The druid is a little more watered down in 3.0 core. There's no casting in wildshape, and your animal morphs are limited by more than hitdie.

    In 3.5, however; a level 6 druid in Fleshraker morph is on par with a fighter of his level. That's without casting a single spell or taking a single feat (and not making constitution his dump stat). That's before bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, greater magic fang, barkskin, your animal companion, and a small, summoned horde of animal growthed dire weasels.
    Last edited by Tor the Fallen; 2007-08-15 at 12:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Mann View Post
    "I am a giant bear that casts spells. I rule melee and force the fighter to carry my stuff when I'm not using it, since lord knows he'd only get in my way in a fight. What I can't rip apart physically I toss spells at, if I don't just use those spells to make myself even more powerful. And when I get tired, here's my companion, Commander Snugglepuff the Dire Lion."
    What he said, only I go for the Mster of Many forms. You can become a dragon with that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookboy View Post
    What he said, only I go for the Mster of Many forms. You can become a dragon with that.
    MoMF doesn't even compensate for what the buffs you stop getting when you take it can do for you--much less the rest of your spellcasting.
    Skip it.

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    I'm just addicted to using dragons. I mean, come on, the three symbols of DnD are Magic Missle, Fireball, and Really Frickin' Big Dragons!
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    There should be a dragon wildshape feat somewhere if you want to use dragons. Although I believe that it requires being level 12 and there is some restriction on the size of the dragon or something like that.

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    I don't understand why everyone thinks wildshape is so overpowered. It seems to me that by the time you're a high enough level to turn into something, any decently challenging opponent is tough enough to take that something out no trouble (exhibit A: individual party members vs. individual blackscale lizardfolk warriors. The rogue slaughtered his, knight just barely won, swashbuckler barely lost, and the druid was slaughtered). Natural spell improves things somewhat, but really, as long as they don't abuse it, who gives a damn? If you do, well, remove it from your campaign world or make it useable only at higher levels or under certain conditions or with certain spells or with training or... you get the idea.
    Blackspeeker, why is power such a concern, anyway? If you have a concept or something you want to do, go with it. If it turns out your character is under or overpowered, compensate for it.

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    My uncle made it like Natural Spell was a spontaneus metamagic feat that increased the level by one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    I don't understand why everyone thinks wildshape is so overpowered. It seems to me that by the time you're a high enough level to turn into something, any decently challenging opponent is tough enough to take that something out no trouble (exhibit A: individual party members vs. individual blackscale lizardfolk warriors. The rogue slaughtered his, knight just barely won, swashbuckler barely lost, and the druid was slaughtered). Natural spell improves things somewhat, but really, as long as they don't abuse it, who gives a damn? If you do, well, remove it from your campaign world or make it useable only at higher levels or under certain conditions or with certain spells or with training or... you get the idea.
    Blackspeeker, why is power such a concern, anyway? If you have a concept or something you want to do, go with it. If it turns out your character is under or overpowered, compensate for it.
    Really? Your druid must be doing something wrong, or choosing the wrong battle morphs, or burning his spells on the wrong stuff. With the right morph, and the right buffs, you'll have more con than the barbarian, more strength than the fighter, and more dex than the rogue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    I don't understand why everyone thinks wildshape is so overpowered. It seems to me that by the time you're a high enough level to turn into something, any decently challenging opponent is tough enough to take that something out no trouble (exhibit A: individual party members vs. individual blackscale lizardfolk warriors. The rogue slaughtered his, knight just barely won, swashbuckler barely lost, and the druid was slaughtered). Natural spell improves things somewhat, but really, as long as they don't abuse it, who gives a damn? If you do, well, remove it from your campaign world or make it useable only at higher levels or under certain conditions or with certain spells or with training or... you get the idea.
    Blackspeeker, why is power such a concern, anyway? If you have a concept or something you want to do, go with it. If it turns out your character is under or overpowered, compensate for it.
    Foo', you crazy!

    Basically, your druid was Doing It Wrong. Look at the brown bear. Add Greater Magic Fang. Add Bull's Strength in the first round of combat.
    Then add a Giant Crocodile to grapple the druid's enemies, too.
    And, oh yeah, the druid still has other spells. He can summon, say, a dire wolf to flank and trip his enemies. He can do damage or grapple. He can fight at range with Entangle and Produce Flame.

    Wildshape is overpowered because it makes your physical stats irrelevant--except CON, since they errataed it. If a fighter wants to be good at fighting, he needs a high STR and an okay Dex and a good CON. The Druid just needs WIS and a decent CON and he's good to go. He can exert absolutely zero effort, and still be a perfectly acceptable frontliner. It gets a lot worse if he tries (look, ma--a Fleshraker!).
    And, oh, yeah, it also grants special abilities like Pounce, Improved Grab, et cetera. And more natural attacks than the fighter gets normal ones, for most of its career. (And natural attacks aren't at iterative penalties, they're at a flat -5 after the first--or -2, if you take Multiattack).

    And that's just when it starts. When the druid is turning into Dire Bears, casting Bite of the Werebear, has a Dire Lion animal companion, and proceeds to summon another Dire Bear or elephant and Animal Growth them and his lion, well, the results are obvious.

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    Don't forget the first really useful spell they get: Call Lightning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookboy View Post
    Don't forget the first really useful spell they get: Call Lightning.
    What? No, Call Lightning sucks.

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    When they first get it, it rocks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    What? No, Call Lightning sucks.
    Actually, it can be pretty nice if you went venerable gnome, and have to sit in the back and wait it out.

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    That's the thing, though, isn't it? If she'd wanted to, she could've turned into a raptor, flown away and zapped its scales off. But the point of this battle was to gain their respect. She certainly certainly impressed them with her sudden transformation into a Big White Fuzzy Thing With Claws (what with polar bears not generally being found in the middle of steaming jungles, with one notable exception), but then she was cut to pieces. Note I'm not commenting on the class as a whole, but rather the wildshape ability specifically. Sure, she could've taken the "nah nah, can't catch me, and now you're dead!" route, but instead she went for the fun, challenging method. You remember fun, don't you? It's that thing what happens when you play games. Sure, she lost, but it was interesting and she learnt some things about her abilities. To be honest, I was expecting her to run away, cast a spell, run away, cast a spell etc. But this way was even better, and was certainly not evidence of the overpoweredness of druids when played for fun and with decent roleplaying. In fact, I think she even told her panther to sit it out so it wouldn't get hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookboy View Post
    When they first get it, it rocks.
    No, it really doesn't. 3d6 is 10.5 on average, with a save for half to boot! Hell, Produce Flame deals 8.5 average damage with no save on a ranged touch attack, and it's a level 1 spell.

    You're better off tossing Greater Magic Fang onto your animal companion than casting Call Lightning. If you've done that, try Plant Growth, and if that's not useful, convert it to Summon Nature's Ally III. That dire wolf or lion, especially with +4 STR/CON from Augment Summoning, is gonna do a lot more good than Call Lightning will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    No, it really doesn't. 3d6 is 10.5 on average, with a save for half to boot! Hell, Produce Flame deals 8.5 average damage with no save on a ranged touch attack, and it's a level 1 spell.

    You're better off tossing Greater Magic Fang onto your animal companion than casting Call Lightning. If you've done that, try Plant Growth, and if that's not useful, convert it to Summon Nature's Ally III. That dire wolf or lion, especially with +4 STR/CON from Augment Summoning, is gonna do a lot more good than Call Lightning will.
    Oh yeah, it's a 3rd level spell. I was thinking Produce Flame (which is much better).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    That's the thing, though, isn't it? If she'd wanted to, she could've turned into a raptor, flown away and zapped its scales off. But the point of this battle was to gain their respect. She certainly certainly impressed them with her sudden transformation into a Big White Fuzzy Thing With Claws (what with polar bears not generally being found in the middle of steaming jungles, with one notable exception), but then she was cut to pieces. Note I'm not commenting on the class as a whole, but rather the wildshape ability specifically. Sure, she could've taken the "nah nah, can't catch me, and now you're dead!" route, but instead she went for the fun, challenging method. You remember fun, don't you? It's that thing what happens when you play games. Sure, she lost, but it was interesting and she learnt some things about her abilities. To be honest, I was expecting her to run away, cast a spell, run away, cast a spell etc. But this way was even better, and was certainly not evidence of the overpoweredness of druids when played for fun and with decent roleplaying. In fact, I think she even told her panther to sit it out so it wouldn't get hurt.
    Polar bear + some buffs = grapple king.

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