craft(song)?

[Deme]

The idea of it occoured to me when reading Complete Scoundrel,
where they (in describing the benafits of a legendary place) mention a bonus to new compositions related to perform skills....and that made me wonder the following:

a: would craft(song) be a legitimate skill, for example?

b: what would the benafits of having crafted a song be? for having crafted a mastework song?

c) that being said, what do you suppose the prices to craft a song would be? the ink and paper? more?

d) does that mean that songs could also be sold, possibly granting a performance bonus?

...If I can get good answers to these, I might invest some ranks in it for my bard; if not, I'll assume he writes his own music, but not have a mechanic for it, like I'd been doing before. I just kind of like the idea...

[Fax Celestis]

Profession (Musician) would probably be a better fit, as it would encompass writing and playing music for money. Perform would be for only performing, while Craft would be for creating only.

[tainsouvra]

Honestly, I would just wrap songwriting into the Perform skill. I realize that Perform is generally the act of performing rather than coming up with a performance, but they are highly related skills and I view skill creep as an unnecessary route.

Profession (Musician) would probably be a better fit, as it would encompass writing and playing music for money. Perform would be for only performing, while Craft would be for creating only.

This I disagree with, as the Perform skill explicitly states how the skill can be used to play music for money, including DC's and the amount earned--you don't need a Profession() for it, it's a part of the original skill.

[BCOVertigo]

A: Yes, you are creating a product, although in this case it is intellectual instead of physical(int based skill though so I can hardly see an arguement to the contrary.)

B: Well theoretically the perform check takes remembering the song into account because you don't get a penalty for not using sheet music, so I'd give a circumstance bonus for it. And as for a masterwork song I suppose you could get a +1 enhancement bonus or some such nonsense.

C: Intellectual property costs more than the material it's printed on, and knowing how to print sheet music is a specialized skill so not too cheap (not expensive for an adventurer though by any stretch)

D: Probably?

[Jasdoif]

Craft simply isn't fitting for artistic, or otherwise creative, endeavors. The "value" of a song isn't related to the cost of the paper it's written on, which is the primary concept of the Craft skill.

[BCOVertigo]

Profession (Musician) would probably be a better fit, as it would encompass writing and playing music for money. Perform would be for only performing, while Craft would be for creating only.

Am I the only one who thinks the Profession skill is...unnecessary?

Looking at this bard example we can have a person who plays other peoples music (Perform: cha based), writes their own (Craft: int based), or does both and makes money (Profession: wisdom based)

I can see Profession being used to run a business or something where wisdom would actually account for some part of the activity, but as for being a musician? A sailor? A merchant?

Sure you can argue that for any of those wisdom is helpful (noticing a storm on the horizon, reading the crowd or a customer, etc.) but that's only one aspect of the activity and generally NOT the main one. Like....actually playing music as a musician?

[Deme]

Craft simply isn't fitting for artistic, or otherwise creative, endeavors. The "value" of a song isn't related to the cost of the paper it's written on, which is the primary concept of the Craft skill.

you've hit the crux of my problem with the idea, even though it does really interest me for some reason I'm not wholly sure of.

idea:

I think, possibly, that I could make up for price-based problems by making the creation time for craft(song) or any other performance-based craft moderately long, as a display of effort and thought put into it.

[BCOVertigo]

Craft simply isn't fitting for artistic, or otherwise creative, endeavors. The "value" of a song isn't related to the cost of the paper it's written on, which is the primary concept of the Craft skill.

Oh I'm not arguing that a higher int equates to a better performance, but a higher craft(armor) check doesn't just make shinier armor, it makes more effective armor.

I think a person who knows the 'rules' of creating music will be better prepared to create it than a guy who decides to start playing guitar and is self taught. The self taught guy might be a natural but you can't argue that training and learning the ins and outs of an activity (especially one as complex as music) doesn't help.

[Jasdoif]

Oh I'm not arguing that a higher int equates to a better performance, but a higher craft(armor) check doesn't just make shinier armor, it makes more effective armor.

By the craft rules, it makes the exact same armor, only faster.

[BCOVertigo]

By the craft rules, it makes the exact same armor, only faster.

Then what's masterwork?

[tainsouvra]

Then what's masterwork?

A higher DC on the check.
Edit: second check, to be precise.

[BCOVertigo]

A higher DC on the check.
Edit: second check, to be precise.

....but a higher craft(armor) check doesn't just make shinier armor, it makes more effective armor.....

I um....agree?

[goat]

I Imagine you could sell a song, especially if it's about a specific even or for a specific person. Medieval songwriters got by selling their products. The only limitation was that when it got well known it couldn't be sold anymore. I imagine a more expensive song would therefore be a more difficult song, one which requires more guidance to learn to play.

As for the production costs, isn't it obvious? You need paper, ink, and MASSIVE amounts of alcohol and narcotics.

[Fax Celestis]

As for the production costs, isn't it obvious? You need paper, ink, and MASSIVE amounts of alcohol and narcotics.

And a broken heart.

[tainsouvra]

I um....agree?

Ah, I believe you just used fuzzy terminology, then. The "a higher check" when used that way generally means "a higher result when you roll against the DC", not "a higher difficulty class to roll against".

[Jasdoif]

Then what's masterwork?

You can choose to make a masterwork item with 1 rank in Craft as easily as you can with 23 ranks. It's simply a second component in the crafting, with a DC 20 for the Craft checks on it. DC 20 might be a bit tough to swing with a single rank, though.

If you manage to succeed with only having 1 rank, the end result is the same: a masterwork item. It simply takes longer with fewer ranks.

[EndgamerAzari]

I believe that Races of Stone touched on this briefly, revealing that there is in fact a Craft: Epic skill. (That's epic as in legend/myth/etc., not 'Level 20 and above'.)

[RTGoodman]

(Searched through PHB, PHB2, all the Complete books, and all the Races books before I finally found this.)

Races of Stone details the use of the Craft skill to create poems, literary works, musical compositions, and other things. Of course, it doesn't tell you what Craft skill is needed (is it Craft [Composition], or Craft [Specific Type of Composition], or what?). Regardless, it says that "Craft covers artistic endeavors such as writing and musical compositions."

The type of composition, value, and Craft DC are listed on a table on pg. 131. It also states that "the only materials required for a written composition are pen, ink, and parchment. In the course of one week's work, you use about 2 gp on materials."

EDIT: Semi-ninja'd!

[TheOOB]

It's a profession, craft checks involve turning raw materials into a finished product, they also work on a weird, downright silly mechanic of craft time and DC being based on item cost, and music price is difficult to pin down.

[BCOVertigo]

You can choose to make a masterwork item with 1 rank in Craft as easily as you can with 23 ranks. It's simply a second component in the crafting, with a DC 20 for the Craft checks on it. DC 20 might be a bit tough to swing with a single rank, though.

If you manage to succeed with only having 1 rank, the end result is the same: a masterwork item. It simply takes longer with fewer ranks.

At this point you're just nitpicking mechanics, sure a person with a single rank can make a masterwork item but I'm fairly sure we can all agree a the more ranks and bonuses you have, the better you are going to do at the given task, dumb luck aside.

Out of curiosity and since I seem to be somewhat confused, what point are you trying to make? We began with your opinion that an int skill doesn't fit an artistic endeavor, which I replied that while you couldn't do it with int alone it certainly helps, and you started on crafting rules... Lets just consolidate this and get to the point.

I think a Craft(song) check is completely legal, has precedence in books apparently, and would definitely assist in the final Perform check. Do you disagree and if so why?

[Jasdoif]

At this point you're just nitpicking mechanics, sure a person with a single rank can make a masterwork item but I'm fairly sure we can all agree a the more ranks and bonuses you have, the better you are going to do at the given task, dumb luck aside.

Out of curiosity and since I seem to be somewhat confused, what point are you trying to make? We began with your opinion that an int skill doesn't fit an artistic endeavor, which I replied that while you couldn't do it with int alone it certainly helps, and you started on crafting rules... Lets just consolidate this and get to the point.

I think a Craft(song) check is completely legal, has precedence in books apparently, and would definitely assist in the final Perform check. Do you disagree and if so why?

The "nitpick" is in fact the entire point. You're claiming that a higher bonus means you make better products. Which is not the case, under usual Craft rules. A higher bonus means you get the same job, with the same quality, done faster.

And that is why Craft isn't appropriate for a song. "I'm going to take 2gp worth of paper and ink and end up with 6gp worth of song" is simply not fitting. The value of a song doesn't come from the paper it's written on or the ink it's written with. And being a more talented songwriter doesn't (usually) mean you write a regular song faster, it means you write a better songs.

Perform (singing) covers singing overall, so it would cover the composition of a song as well.

Now, there are some existing cases for using a Craft skill to determine the quality of craftsmanship of a work given other materials. Fabricate comes to mind. However, the physical quality of a piece of paper doesn't improve the presentation quality of the song on it, so this doesn't work out.

On the other hand, if you want to make a single Craft check to make the written song look all pretty and embellished, that's fine. But don't make it a new, separate skill like Craft (song). Use an existing skill, like Craft (calligraphy), that covers the physical task at hand. Make a single check to see how "good" it looks.

If you simply want to write a song down for your own perusal, I'd say being literate and having writing materials is sufficient, no skill check needed. No need to add in another skill point sink, is there?



Now then, if we're still wanting to make an item that gives a bonus on Perform (singing) checks, I can try to adapt something for that...I'd base it on the generic "masterwork tool" that gives a +2 circumstance bonus on a particular check, except "craft" it with Perform (singing) checks...and reduce the progress rate, and make the DC 25 or so.

This might be too simple an adaption, but at the end of a process you've got a songbook, with a collection of songs you've written yourself and thus new to any audience. Now you have a set of "fallbacks" you can practice in case your planned performances go poorly. Sounds worth a +2 to me. And it's creation is dependent entirely on your ability to put together song material that you like, and not any mechanical proficiency to write words like a Craft check would be.