Prestige Class Contest Chat Thread I

[sengmeng]

Last day of voting! I'll try to make sure I get around to that...

[Aniikinis]

I have gone back and corrected so many minor flow errors and tiny typos on that one post than any other that I've made before. I think I've edited it like 14 times so far with just minor little text nitpicks (missing a letter, misplaced comma, slight reading flow mistake, etc.). It's probably just because of how I'm reading it but it's just annoying me so much.

[MrNobody]

I think i'll manage to throw my votes in the next 3-4 hours. Please, wait for me!!!!!

[Jormengand]

I think i'll manage to throw my votes in the next 3-4 hours. Please, wait for me!!!!!

Noted; I'll wait a while for you. Especially since I forgot to get my votes in for today and I really oughta sleep, so mine will be tomorrow too.

[JoshuaZ]

Congratulations to Jormengand and Molemage with their first place ties. Congrats also to Aniikinis, ObliviMancer, and rferries for their category wins.

So, what is the next context theme going to be?

[Jormengand]

The themes I've seen listed that we haven't done yet are Creepy Crawlies, Salvation and Damnation, and The Planes. Given the massive objections that have been leveled against Creepy Crawlies, I recommend doing "Heaven or Hell" as a way to roll the other two together - implying either something to do with the planes, or to do with morality, or however you want to interpret that.

The input of other people is appreciated, though. I may be a dictator, but I'm a benevolent one.

[sengmeng]

I recommend doing "Heaven or Hell" as a way to roll the other two together - implying either something to do with the planes, or to do with morality, or however you want to interpret that.

Seconded

I may be a dictator, but I'm a benevolent one.

Seconded

[Aniikinis]

I'm cool with whatever. And with the class, I mostly just wanted to try something and mainly wanted to give a fighting style that required far too many feats to be worth it. If I was going to flesh that out more, I'd refine the quill abilities, change a few things, and just generally make it better. But this was still a learning experience.

[rferries]

I vote for Heaven & Hell too, though I might not be able to submit an entry this time around.

[Jormengand]

And here's the Heaven or Hell contest.

[sengmeng]

Considering the dual nature of the theme, would anyone object to an entry of two similar but opposite prestige classes?

[rferries]

Considering the dual nature of the theme, would anyone object to an entry of two similar but opposite prestige classes?

Clever idea, I approve!

[Jormengand]

Considering the dual nature of the theme, would anyone object to an entry of two similar but opposite prestige classes?

I don't mind, certainly, especially since I'm sure there are ways of rewriting it as one class but it's probably just neater to split it into two.

[MrNobody]

I'm thinking about a cleric/binder theurge that uses pact magic to bind the force of archdevils: i could it be ok or too much out of theme?

I'm not sure i'll manage to write something down, since i'm getting married in a couple of weeks, but i'll try!

[Jormengand]

I'm thinking about a cleric/binder theurge that uses pact magic to bind the force of archdevils: i could it be ok or too much out of theme?

I'm not sure i'll manage to write something down, since i'm getting married in a couple of weeks, but i'll try!

That seems fine.

Congrats on finding The One.

[MrNobody]

Congrats on finding The One.

Thanks Jorm :)

[sengmeng]

Congrats on finding The One.

Spoiler

Show

Thanks Jorm!

[JoshuaZ]

Ok. My entry, the Keyholder is now up. Definitely PEACH.

[rferries]

I'll give a quick bit of feedback to everyone.

Righteous Sinner
-Given that they get Bluff & Intimidate, perhaps they should get Diplomacy too (to balance out the "evil" social skills)?
-Salvation & Damnation - it'll be very interesting to see how this works out. Does rescuing 100 orphans balance out killing 100 peasants? To maintain neutrality, will a PC have to constantly say things like "I'm only completing this quest for the money"? :D
-Retrograde, Font of Blood, Vengeance - all very flavourful.

Hellbound Cultist
-Looks like it'll be a nice little theurge class. Don't know enough about binders to comment much, but congrats on getting hitched!

The Keyholder
-Superb flavour quote; did you paraphrase someone else or was that entirely your own writing?
-The skill and spellcasting requirements are a bit awkward (I get that you want sorcerers and limited-spells-known to be able to enter... maybe simply "summon monster I/II/III and one of protection from chaos/evil/good/lawful"? "at least three Conjuration (Summoning) spells?")
-Nice touch about adapting for Pathfinder
-Needs a few minor edits e.g. Utilitarian Spellcasting in table vs Utilitarian Summoner in text
-Minor quibble, but if "the four ethical alignment types' is redundant (since there are only four alignment types). I usually say the moral alignments are Good and Evil and the ethical alignments are Chaos and Law.
-Utilitarian Summoner: not affecting your alignment is very cool and the effectively doubled caster level is great for spell durations, but the bonus hp is so minor it should be deleted or buffed (+1 hp per class level to each of the summoned creature's HD? Or +1 hp per class level per level of the summon spell?)
-Gates: there has to be an easier way to phrase and balance this. I get what you mean but it's a very inelegant mechanic.
-Gates (cont'd): I don't mind telling you that I'll most likely be assigning your class 1st place, these are all amazing and well-balanced thematically and mechanically. My only quibble is that Understanding the Great Choir, Understanding the Fallen, Understanding the Disciplined, and Understanding the Anarch are extremely niche (and technically don't help you when using planar binding, I'd at least rephrase them to "+2 bonus on Sense Motive, Charisma-checks, and Charisma-based skill checks when dealing with outsiders of X alignment").
-The rest of the lore is great!
-Sorry if that's a lot of feedback, yours was simply the most complete class thus far so there was more to say.

Looking good, everyone!

[JoshuaZ]

I'll give a quick bit of feedback to everyone.


The Keyholder
-Superb flavour quote; did you paraphrase someone else or was that entirely your own writing?

My own writing, but it summarizes a lot of my own objections to the alignment system as a whole mixed in with a little bit summarzing how medieval occultists actually thought about things (summoning angels and demons together was considered completely reasonable).

-The skill and spellcasting requirements are a bit awkward (I get that you want sorcerers and limited-spells-known to be able to enter... maybe simply "summon monster I/II/III and one of protection from chaos/evil/good/lawful"? "at least three Conjuration (Summoning) spells?")

Hmm, I'll probably go with the last one that works well enough.

-Nice touch about adapting for Pathfinder

Thanks. I've been trying to generally include this for all PrCs I make now, but it is definitely easier for some than others. Spellcasting didn't change as much as say grappling so there really wasn't much to do.

-Needs a few minor edits e.g. Utilitarian Spellcasting in table vs Utilitarian Summoner in text

Fixed. Thanks.

-Minor quibble, but if "the four ethical alignment types' is redundant (since there are only four alignment types). I usually say the moral alignments are Good and Evil and the ethical alignments are Chaos and Law.

Fixed.

-Utilitarian Summoner: not affecting your alignment is very cool and the effectively doubled caster level is great for spell durations, but the bonus hp is so minor it should be deleted or buffed (+1 hp per class level to each of the summoned creature's HD? Or +1 hp per class level per level of the summon spell?)

Part of the thought process was to make it still occasionally worth-while to use low level summons at higher levels. Hmm, if one finishes the PrC then at level 15 one is likely summoning 7th level beings. So one is adding around 10% to their hitpoints, which yeah, is not a lot. I guess the other worry then is that by that point, one is functionally 2 levels behind a straight wizard summoning who can summon off the 8th level list. But adding say 70 hp to a bone devil who is already at 95 hp seems a bit much. If one did do something where it functioned off of spell level would then actually have the nice option though of allowing it to be boosted off of heighten metamagic. Ok. I'll go with (class level *spell level)/2 (min 1) which has nice scaling and doesn't lead to too high numbers on the upper end. If you or anyone else has a suggestion for a tweak to this formula, I'd be happy to hear it.

-Gates: there has to be an easier way to phrase and balance this. I get what you mean but it's a very inelegant mechanic.

Yeah, the difficulty here is twofold. One is that for fluff reasons they shouldn't be able to just open gates from a single alignment or two alignments. Second is that some of the Gates are too strong to be taken early. If you have any suggestions for a better way to do this I'd certainly like to hear it. The other idea I had was to have a formula that simply said you cannot have more gates of any alignment than the smallest number of gates of any other alignment +2. Would that work? I'll have to think about it.

I don't mind telling you that I'll most likely be assigning your class 1st place, these are all amazing and well-balanced thematically and mechanically.

Thanks!

-Gates (cont'd): My only quibble is that Understanding the Great Choir, Understanding the Fallen, Understanding the Disciplined, and Understanding the Anarch are extremely niche (and technically don't help you when using planar binding, I'd at least rephrase them to "+2 bonus on Sense Motive, Charisma-checks, and Charisma-based skill checks when dealing with outsiders of X alignment").

Good call. So modified.

-Sorry if that's a lot of feedback, yours was simply the most complete class thus far so there was more to say.

No problem. More feedback is good.

[JoshuaZ]

Quickly EACHing other entries. I'm going to restrict this to the Purgator and the Plane Strider which are both essentially done(although I really want to see the completed versions of the Hellbound Cultist and the Righteous Sinner).

Purgator:

Overall, seems well done.

Prerequisites:
To become a Purgator, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Alignment
Any lawful.

Skills
Knowledge (religion) 9 ranks.

Languages
Abyssal, Infernal.

Feats
Track.

Spells
Ability to cast 1st-level divine spells.

Special
Turn (not rebuke) undead class feature.

Why is Track required? That seems a little outside what the class does, and none of the class features interact with it. Also, is there a reason you want 9 ranks in Knowledge(religion)? Is there a specific balance issue if people could enter the class at 6th level?

A Purgator loses class features (and must seek atonement) for committing chaotic acts as normal.

From the SRD: "A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities" Is there another class you are thinking of which loses class features for committing chaotic acts?

For Turn Evil ability, what does "spellcaster" mean? Does it mean able to cast spells? If so, an evil warlock who has a contract with hell wouldn't be able to be turned? This may need to be phrased more carefully (or just include a note for DMs to interpret it broadly).

At 10th level, a Purgator may expend a turn attempt to use greater dispel magic as an immediate action (caster level = character level). He may only counter or dispel [Evil] effects or effects created by evil creatures in this way.

This last ability is less of a restriction than it might sound like otherwise since most parties are going to be against evil creatures.

Regarding the Spellcasting progression- you can might be able to get away with another level or two of spellcasting increasing. 5th level would be the obvious place to put it. Maybe someone else can comment on if that would be balanced.


Plane Strider

Prerequisites: Knowledge(the planes) 9 ranks, class ability that grants +6 damage against outsiders or a specific subset of outsider.

Most of the class features involve travel. Is there a reason that they have as a prerequisite a specific combat ability? Also what is the intended entry for the class? I would have guessed from the last ability Ranger 10, but then they'll need some other feat to get the knowledge ranks without it being a cross-class skill. If they enter with Ranger 10/Clr 1 then they cannot finish the PrC until 21st level. One might want to try some sort of early entry using a clever PrC but I can't see an immediate way of doing so. My first guess was to use a few levels of Knight of the Chalice (from Complete Warrior) with ranger, but this doesn't work at two levels (since you require a single class to have +6 and because Knight of the Chalice cannot be entered without already having a whole bunch of knowledge(religion) ranks already).

Planar Training- maybe specify that this has to be a base class. Otherwise, this leads to some serious possibilities for shenanigans.

Planar Expertise- You may need to specify here which abilities are ex and which are su.

Specific comments on the various Planar Expertise:

Elemental Swallower - This initially seems like a weird way of doing this, but then I read the Elemental Resurgence and it makes sense.

Both the Planar Anchoring and Cut the Anchor features are very mechanically unique and interesting. I'm not sure that giving its own pool for Cut the Anchor this is the best way to do this in this context.

Overall, I like it.

[rferries]

Quickly EACHing other entries. I'm going to restrict this to the Purgator and the Plane Strider which are both essentially done(although I really want to see the completed versions of the Hellbound Cultist and the Righteous Sinner).

Purgator:

Overall, seems well done.

Many thanks!

Why is Track required? That seems a little outside what the class does, and none of the class features interact with it.

Track (and the social skills, and the Use Rope skill) were for flavour about the Purgator hunting down, capturing, and interrogating supernatural evil. Hellbound is really the only class feature interacting with this, I admit.

Also, is there a reason you want 9 ranks in Knowledge(religion)? Is there a specific balance issue if people could enter the class at 6th level?

Oops I made a mistake! Should be 8 ranks, so that a paladin can get a special mount (at 5th level) before entering.

From the SRD: "A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities" Is there another class you are thinking of which loses class features for committing chaotic acts?

I've always interpreted "ceasing to be lawful good" as both "ceasing to be good" and "ceasing to be lawful" e.g. paladins shouldn't be allowed to Bluff except for a good cause IMHO. In any event I've rewritten the section a bit.

For Turn Evil ability, what does "spellcaster" mean? Does it mean able to cast spells? If so, an evil warlock who has a contract with hell wouldn't be able to be turned? This may need to be phrased more carefully (or just include a note for DMs to interpret it broadly).

Good catch, added a little note.

This last ability is less of a restriction than it might sound like otherwise since most parties are going to be against evil creatures.

Regarding the Spellcasting progression- you can might be able to get away with another level or two of spellcasting increasing. 5th level would be the obvious place to put it. Maybe someone else can comment on if that would be balanced.

Yeah these two points balance each other out, I think. A cleric can get 15th-level spellcasting with this class; I felt sacrificing 9th-level spells was worth it for the power to counter villain's spells with ease.

Thanks again!

[MrNobody]

The Hellbound Cultist is done... but i have no time to write down the vestige version of the Nine Archdukes.

I wanted to post my work anyway: i hope you like it. I may complete it when i'm back from my honeymoon

Good luck to everybody!

[Jormengand]

I think that my takeover of both the 3.5 homebrew contests was long overdue.

Can anyone think of some more abilities that they want to see on the righteous sinner? I'm definitely making the 10th-level one celestial/fiend/something themed around flaws, but not sure on any of the others that I haven't done yet.

[rferries]

The Hellbound Cultist is done... but i have no time to write down the vestige version of the Nine Archdukes.

I wanted to post my work anyway: i hope you like it. I may complete it when i'm back from my honeymoon

Good luck to everybody!

Wish I knew enough about binders to comment. At a glance seems better than a mystic theurge (in that it has class features and advances rebuke undead), but that's hardly a bad thing. Enjoy the honeymoon!

I think that my takeover of both the 3.5 homebrew contests was long overdue.

Can anyone think of some more abilities that they want to see on the righteous sinner? I'm definitely making the 10th-level one celestial/fiend/something themed around flaws, but not sure on any of the others that I haven't done yet.

I still feel like they should get Diplomacy or at least Gather Information, for righteous sinners who don't want to use "evil" social skills (Bluff and Intimidate).

The acquisition of salvation and damnation points is probably what the entire class will hinge on. Even if all the good, evil, and neutral abilities are perfectly balanced against each other, players will be irritated if they're aiming for certain abilities but the DM decides their actions warrant points of an unwanted type. At least you're better off as a righteous sinner than a paladin though (in that you'll still have abilities if you "fall", just not the abilities you wanted). Good luck finding a happy medium!

In general I feel like the wait time for abilities could be reduced to 1d4 rounds (symmetry with a breath weapon). Since the class doesn't have anything do do other than spam the abilities, they should be able to use them more freely.

Also, the focus on hit point damage may or may not be troublesome... I think you should at least include ability damage/drain as things that can be reflected/shared/doubled.

Spirit Shield - this protects only the RS, correct? If not, should specify a range/target etc. (same for Holy Vengeance, Font of Blood, Equality, and Retrograde).

Cooperation - to differentiate it from the evil ability, maybe give the bonus on saves instead of attack rolls? Jut a flavour suggestion though.

Holy Vengeance - what happens with area effects? If a 10th-level wizard casts a fireball on X enemies, does he take X times 10d6 damage? Same for the other evil and neutral abilities that divide or double damage. And come to think of it, also applies to Spirit Shield (e.g. if you protect yourself from a fireball, do you automatically protect everyone else?).

As for suggestions... a minor, repeating lay on hands ability for salvation, a minor damaging equivalent for damnation, and an ability that can act as either (healing neutral creatures, harming creatures of extreme alignments)?

[JoshuaZ]

Ok. July 5th. Last day of contest. Any last minute suggestions or changes I should make to the Keyholder?

Also, general reminder to everyone that today is the last day.

[Jormengand]

I'm going to request, and then grant myself (FEEL THE POWER!) a one-week extension because I'm just that kind. Also I got really really busy recently. Sorry! On the plus side, more time to get your own entries in.

[JoshuaZ]

I'm going to request, and then grant myself (FEEL THE POWER!) a one-week extension because I'm just that kind. Also I got really really busy recently. Sorry! On the plus side, more time to get your own entries in.

Do you know when you are going to put up the contest voting thread?

[Jormengand]

Do you know when you are going to put up the contest voting thread?

Soon. Sorry, I'm an emotional wreck and I just can't handle anything at the moment. Tomorrow probably.

[rferries]

Soon. Sorry, I'm an emotional wreck and I just can't handle anything at the moment. Tomorrow probably.

Oh dear... very sorry to hear that. :( Would you like someone else to take over? No rush either way, it's just an internet contest!