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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Weaker than the Archangel, just as Evil is weaker than Good . Unlike the archangel however, it likes to build up a force of demons, undead, and mortal minions to protect it (a la Diablo).

    ARCHDEMON
    MEDIUM OUTSIDER (Extraplanar, Chaotic, Evil, Incorporeal)
    Hit Dice: 21d8+168 (262 hp)
    Initiative: +12
    Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares), fly 250 ft. (perfect)
    Armor Class: 34 (+8 Dex, +8 deflection, +8 natural), touch 26, flat-footed 26
    Base Attack/Grapple: +21/+29
    Attack: +5 trident +34 melee (1d8+17/19-20/x2)
    Full Attack: +5 trident +34/+29/+24/+19 melee (1d8+17/19-20/x2)
    Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks: Aura of horror, black magic bargain, incarnation of slaughter, rebuke evil 13/day, spells
    Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/epic and good and lawful, darkvision 60 ft., incorporeal traits, regeneration 10, resistance to acid 20, cold 20, electricity 20, fire 20, and sonic 20, spell resistance 31, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing, unholy grace
    Saves: Fort +28, Ref +28, Will +28
    Abilities: Str 26, Dex 26, Con 26, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 26
    Skills: Bluff +32, Concentration +32, Craft (any one) +32, Diplomacy +36, Disguise +32 (+34 acting), Hide +32, Intimidate +34, Listen +32, Knowledge (religion plus any two) +32, Perform (any one) +32, Sense Motive +32, Spellcraft +32 (+34 scrolls), Spot +32, Use Magic Device +32 (+34 scrolls)
    Feats: Cleave, Empower Spell, Eschew MaterialsB, Flyby Attack, Improved Critical (trident), Improved Initiative, Leadership, Power Attack
    Epic Feats: Epic Leadership, Legendary CommanderB, PolyglotB
    Environment: A chaotic evil-aligned plane
    Organization: Solitary (plus cohort), pair, or cult (1 archdemon plus cohort plus 3-6 demons and various undead)
    Challenge Rating: 21
    Treasure: Triple standard
    Alignment: Always chaotic evil
    Advancement: -
    Level Adjustment: -

    A sudden wind extinguishes the candles, and darkness fills the hall. The pentagram of blood bursts into flames, and a creature of terrible and irresistible power strides forth from the inferno.

    Archdemons were once mighty angels, cast down after their great Rebellion and desire to be worshipped as gods themselves. Now creatures of unsurpassed evil, they seek only to corrupt mortals and plan for another war against the heavens.

    Archdemons speak all languages via their Polyglot feat, and furthermore possess telepathy.

    Combat Abilities
    An archdemon relishes combat against worthy opponents, though they always offer a black magic bargain when possible. They enter the fray quickly, viewing their spells as a last resort.

    An archdemon's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as epic, chaos-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

    Aura of Horror (Su)
    Any non-extraplanar creature within 100 feet of an archdemon must succeed on a Will save (DC 28) each round or take 1d8 points of Wisdom damage and become shaken for 2d4 rounds (stacking as normal for fear up to the panicked condition). A creature reduced to 0 Wisdom in this way instantly regains all their lost Wisdom but is driven permanently insane (if good-aligned) or is permanently dominated by the archdemon (if nongood-aligned). Caster level 21st for these effects. The save DC is Charisma-based.

    Black Magic Bargain (Su)
    An archdemon may offer black magic bargains to non-extraplanar creatures at will, as the spell (caster level 21st). An archdemon's cohort and followers (from the Leadership feat) are all creatures it has current bargains with, or whom now serve the archdemon after death. Permanently slaying an archdemon frees all of its followers, living or dead... though malevolent souls may choose to return to the Material Plane and cause havoc.

    Incarnation of Slaughter (Su)
    An archdemon's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as being anarchic , ghost touch, and unholy weapons. (These benefits are not reflected in the statistics block). They retain their natural armour bonus and may choose to grapple opponents (and otherwise manipulate objects) as though they were not incorporeal.

    Rebuke Evil (Su)
    As the cleric rebuke undead class feature (including the +2 synergy bonus from Knowledge (religion)), save that an archdemon may also use it to rebuke evil outsiders and any creatures with CR 20 or less do not count towards the limit of Hit Dice it can command with this ability.

    Regeneration (Su)
    An archdemon's regeneration is overcome by epic weapons that are both good and lawful, or by any [Good] or [Lawful] spell.

    Spells
    An archdemon casts spells as a 21st-level sorcerer (spells per day: 6/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6, save DC 18 + spell level), and can also cast spells from the cleric spell list. Archdemons gain the granted powers of the Chaos, Death, Evil, and Trickery domains, and all spells from those domains are added to their spells known. The cleric spells and domain spells are considered arcane spells for a archdemon, meaning that the creature does not need a divine focus to cast them. Finally, an archdemon also adds gate, greater planar binding, limited wish and wish to their spells known.

    True Seeing (Su)
    An archdemon benefits from a constant true seeing effect, as the spell (caster level 24th).

    Unholy Grace (Su)
    An archdemon adds its Charisma modifier as a bonus on all its saving throws. (The statistics block already reflects these bonuses).

    Feats
    An archdemon always possesses the Epic Leadership feat, granting it a 20th-level cohort (typically a mortal spellcaster openly or subversively leading a cult devoted to the archdemon). They also possess legions of followers through the Legendary Commander feat, typically cult members, minor demons, and intelligent minor undead.
    Last edited by rferries; 2017-10-18 at 09:00 AM.

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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Looks, good. I would add to unholy grace "... and as a deflection bonus to AC" assuming that's where they get the deflection bonus...

    Although I do have a nitpick with the fluff :P
    Devils are supposed to be the ones cast out of the heavens in D&D mythology, hence their whole lawful fluff. :P
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Looks, good. I would add to unholy grace "... and as a deflection bonus to AC" assuming that's where they get the deflection bonus...

    Although I do have a nitpick with the fluff :P
    Devils are supposed to be the ones cast out of the heavens in D&D mythology, hence their whole lawful fluff. :P
    The deflection bonus is from being incorporeal (one of the minor incorporeal traits).

    Yeah, these can be refluffed as devils/daemons according to the campaign, they're just a generic "ultimate evil" type thing. I may do a proper Diablo writeup later on as well.

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    The deflection bonus is from being incorporeal (one of the minor incorporeal traits).

    Yeah, these can be refluffed as devils/daemons according to the campaign, they're just a generic "ultimate evil" type thing. I may do a proper Diablo writeup later on as well.
    Oh, my bad
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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    .
    1. Since when do incorporeal beings possess natural armor?
    2. If they can grapple, you should give them the Ghost Touch trait..... but when they do, they should be equally susceptible to being hit themselves.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Side note Black Magic Bargain Potions = ultimate troll, and that spell will be my bread and butter for current Pact maker character

    I really am enjoying your Line of things devoid of DND mythos and just going for the classic concepts.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    .
    1. Since when do incorporeal beings possess natural armor?
    2. If they can grapple, you should give them the Ghost Touch trait..... but when they do, they should be equally susceptible to being hit themselves.

    1. See the Incarnation of Slaughter ability.
    2. Whoops, forgot to add the ghost touch thing when I was porting over from the Archangel, fixed. However, they still benefit from being incorporeal because they are "super spirits" - can affect the material world but retain their protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanth Sor View Post
    Side note Black Magic Bargain Potions = ultimate troll, and that spell will be my bread and butter for current Pact maker character

    I really am enjoying your Line of things devoid of DND mythos and just going for the classic concepts.
    Ha! I didn't even think of that... but yes it's a 3rd-level spell so I guess it works.

    Thanks! DnD has rich lore but sometimes I can't be bothered to do a detailed writeup haha.

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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    2. Whoops, forgot to add the ghost touch thing when I was porting over from the Archangel, fixed. However, they still benefit from being incorporeal because they are "super spirits" - can affect the material world but retain their protection.
    Off the top of my head, I think it is called a poltergeist?
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Off the top of my head, I think it is called a poltergeist?
    Yeah, though the demons/angels are meant to be more powerful than ghosts. There's precedent anyways - incorporeal creatures often have touch attacks, ghosts can sometimes use telekinesis, etc.

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Yeah, though the demons/angels are meant to be more powerful than ghosts. There's precedent anyways - incorporeal creatures often have touch attacks, ghosts can sometimes use telekinesis, etc.
    Nah, I was just saying real life equivalent... if you believe in such things.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Quote Originally Posted by NothingAbnormal View Post
    Nah, I was just saying real life equivalent... if you believe in such things.
    Oh duh haha. I think poltergeists are usually undead or minor spirits though "IRL", rather than heavenly/hellish beings.

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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Oh duh haha. I think poltergeists are usually undead or minor spirits though "IRL", rather than heavenly/hellish beings.
    I'm of the same opinion, they just came to mind is all
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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    1. See the Incarnation of Slaughter ability.
    I saw it. Not enough in my view.
    Having a natural armor bonus w/o having a physical body is something that defies even the most lenient definition of verisimilitude.
    That's something that requires a more convincing explanation than "because they are super spirits" / "because they are awesome" / "because they got the MOJO" / "because I say so".

    Note: Ignore the above if you don't give a rat's ass about verisimilitude. It's a matter of PoV.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I saw it. Not enough in my view.
    Having a natural armor bonus w/o having a physical body is something that defies even the most lenient definition of verisimilitude.
    That's something that requires a more convincing explanation than "because they are super spirits" / "because they are awesome" / "because they got the MOJO" / "because I say so".

    Note: Ignore the above if you don't give a rat's ass about verisimilitude. It's a matter of PoV.
    There's sufficient precedent for incorporeal natural armour - see ghosts, which retain their natural armour bonus (albeit only against ethereal encounters). These demons/angels just take that a step further by having a ghost touch property that effectively imbues their entire bodies, allowing them the best of both worlds (or best of both planes, rather ;) ). You can also think of it as the special force armour from mage armour, save that in this case it's special force natural armour rather than manufactured armour.

    In my opinion Outsiders (as beings of pure spirit) should all have features like this, it's weird that they often have flesh and blood in my opinion - and it raises other questions, like - what do their tissue samples look like under a microscope? What is the DNA of a soul? :D An Outsider's appearance should just be A Form You Are Comfortable With, I feel.

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    There's sufficient precedent for incorporeal natural armour - see ghosts, which retain their natural armour bonus (albeit only against ethereal encounters). These demons/angels just take that a step further by having a ghost touch property that effectively imbues their entire bodies, allowing them the best of both worlds (or best of both planes, rather ;) ). You can also think of it as the special force armour from mage armour, save that in this case it's special force natural armour rather than manufactured armour.

    In my opinion Outsiders (as beings of pure spirit) should all have features like this, it's weird that they often have flesh and blood in my opinion - and it raises other questions, like - what do their tissue samples look like under a microscope? What is the DNA of a soul? :D An Outsider's appearance should just be A Form You Are Comfortable With, I feel.
    "Natural armor is the same as the base creature’s but applies only to ethereal encounters. When the ghost manifests (see below), its natural armor bonus is +0, but it gains a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma modifier or +1, whichever is higher."

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Yes, see my clause about it only applying to ethereal encounters. I've simply used that (and mage armour, and ghost touch) as a precedent for making a unique special quality for the angel/demon. It's a special case, in the same way a ghaele is a living incorporeal creature (in globe form), or the light rays of ghaeles/lantern archons overcome all damage reduction.

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Quote Originally Posted by rferries View Post
    Yes, see my clause about it only applying to ethereal encounters. I've simply used that (and mage armour, and ghost touch) as a precedent for making a unique special quality for the angel/demon. It's a special case, in the same way a ghaele is a living incorporeal creature (in globe form), or the light rays of ghaeles/lantern archons overcome all damage reduction.
    1. I see nothing mentally challenging about an energy attack that overcomes all resistances/immunities.
    2. I'm not sure that clause is correctly phrased. AFAIK, DR is only relevant vs. physical (bludgeoning/piercing/slashing) damage, not energy attacks.
    3. An incorporeal being (i.e. a being w/o a physical body) that possesses an armor bonus to AC is no more mentally challenging than an incorporeal being made of Antinium. Someone who's ok with the former should have no problem with the latter.

    It would make a lot more sense if you gave archdemons an insight bonus to dodge AC (similar to Demilich) instead of natural armor. Same effect w/o defying common sense.
    Last edited by nonsi; 2017-10-19 at 01:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    The idea that angels, demons and other spiritual entities are 'only corporeal when it benefits them' is actually a pretty old one, so I don't see a problem with including it as a balancing factor. Giving a creature a dodge bonus instead of a natural armor bonus does, in fact, change the creature's math in a real way due to touch attacks (and more rarely flat-footed attacks), so it seems fine to me to keep this little ditty. This is not more complex than giving a creature a deflection bonus due to some protective aura, as well as the ghost touch property, and allowing it to phase through materials at will.

    Personally, I prefer my demons to be flesh and blood, but honestly I think that if you're going with the 'body and soul are one' default of 3.5e/Pathfinder then this makes perfect sense. I'm not sure this is the aspect of the Archdemon that most needs debating.

    On my own note, I feel like the flavor is very bland and strongly judeo-christian biased (which seems weird for most DnD settings), and I'd prefer is the secondary alignment was removed entirely since it makes for slightly strange balancing issues when converting it to represent a neutral evil fiend. (Damage reduction 10/epic and good and lawful is strictly better than Damage reduction 10/epic and good for example.)
    Last edited by Knitifine; 2017-10-19 at 05:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Archdemon (revised Balor/Pit Fiend)

    Quote Originally Posted by Knitifine View Post
    The idea that angels, demons and other spiritual entities are 'only corporeal when it benefits them' is actually a pretty old one, so I don't see a problem with including it as a balancing factor. Giving a creature a dodge bonus instead of a natural armor bonus does, in fact, change the creature's math in a real way due to touch attacks (and more rarely flat-footed attacks), so it seems fine to me to keep this little ditty. This is not more complex than giving a creature a deflection bonus due to some protective aura, as well as the ghost touch property, and allowing it to phase through materials at will.

    Personally, I prefer my demons to be flesh and blood, but honestly I think that if you're going with the 'body and soul are one' default of 3.5e/Pathfinder then this makes perfect sense. I'm not sure this is the aspect of the Archdemon that most needs debating.

    On my own note, I feel like the flavor is very bland and strongly judeo-christian biased (which seems weird for most DnD settings), and I'd prefer is the secondary alignment was removed entirely since it makes for slightly strange balancing issues when converting it to represent a neutral evil fiend. (Damage reduction 10/epic and good and lawful is strictly better than Damage reduction 10/epic and good for example.)
    Yes, that's it precisely. In any event Incarnation of Slaughter just boils down to being a unique special attack/quality, of which there are already many such examples (a choker's quickness, a ghaele's globe form, etc. etc.).

    No argument about the simplistic flavour! This is just meant to be an ur-evil to change up the usual balor/balrog flavour. If it's to be converted to the standard Outer Plane cosmology the DR & regen cold be replaced with epic & good & silver/cold iron/etc, depending on if it becomes a devil/demon/daemon etc.

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