High AC & damage??

[Tyger]

Looking for class combinations that would result in (at level 8ish) a reasonably high AC and a good damage output. The high dex barbarian in mithril chain sort of combinations... I've only been into D&D 3.5 for about a year now, and have played casters up till now, so I am at a bit of a loss for a good thug.

Books allowed are pretty much anything (we are almost obsessive in our collections!) and race is open to discussion with the DM. The WBL guidelines are out the window in this game (on the low side that is) and we have a couple houserules that factor in.

1) If you take a PrC, you must complete that PrC prior to taking another. I.e. no one level dips into PrCs for special abilities.

2) Shields give x2 their normal AC bonus. Yes, that means that a tower shield gives +8 AC. And the lowly buckler gives +2.

So... any suggestions?

I am purposely not putting this in the build suggestions thread, as I am looking more for starting points than end results. I am starting to get a decent idea for feat and skill synergies, so I think I can likley build on any suggestions made... or at least know where to look to find idea!

[Abstruse]

Well, my first question would be whether the doubled-AC benefit applies to the shield spell as well.

That aside, you could always consider the possibility of some fighter class (fighter, crusader, whatever, as long as it has a 1/1 BaB). Take, say, 3 levels of that (to put you at +3 BaB). Then multiclass to take 4 levels of an arcane spellcasting class. I recommend wizard, for the flexibility, but any will do. Finally, for your 8th level take the first level of the Abjurant Champion PrC (from Complete Mage). With shield and greater mage armor (from the SpC) and even a halfway decent DEX bonus (say, +2), you'll have the start of an extremely impressive AC.

10 (base)
4 (shield)
6 (greater mage armor)
2 (DEX)
+1 (PrC bonus to spell shield bonus)
+1 (PrC bonus to spell armor bonus)

24, at least, and the prestige class AC bonus scales with the level -- at Abjurant Champion 3 you'll have +3 to each of the shield and armor bonuses, as well as some very useful metamagic abilities. And that's without any gear or feats whatsoever -- no ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, defending weapon, dodge, combat expertise, or anything similar.

ETA: If the bonus from shield is doubled, that's at least +4 more AC -- and if your DM lets you add on the prestige class bonus (doubtful), it could scale up to +9 more.

[Soepvork]

+1 (PrC bonus to spell armor bonus)

Unless I missed an erratum or something, "Abjurant armor" only lets you add you AbjCh level to abjuration spells that grant a shield or armor bonus to AC. Since (Greater) mage armor is a conjuration spell, you won't get a bonus there.

[Townopolis]

Half-Orc Warblade with a heavy shield and Punishing Stance?

AC= 19 (10 +5 breastplate +4 Shield +2 Dex -2 Stance)

Longsword: +14 attack (+8 BaB +4 STR +1 Masterwork +1 Focus) 1d8+1d6+6 damage (1d8 sword +1d6 stance +4 STR +2 Specialization) 19+/x2 critical, etc...

Power Attack (1)
Weapon Focus (3)
Improved Initiative (5)
Weapon Specialization (6)

With power attack you can boost your damage pretty well. This build isn't as high on the AC list, but sometimes the best AC is a pile of dead bodies. Also, this probably isn't the best possible built, simply because I'm not really trying that hard.

[Edit] This assumes a Dex of 14 and a STR of 18 (14 +2 racial +1 4th level +1 8th level) Also, if you have at leas 10500 gp to spend on some swag, you can pick up a suit of mithril full plate, for a +8 armor bonus, bringing your AC up to 22.

[Abstruse]

Unless I missed an erratum or something, "Abjurant armor" only lets you add you AbjCh level to abjuration spells that grant a shield or armor bonus to AC. Since (Greater) mage armor is a conjuration spell, you won't get a bonus there.

Yes, but as the description of the ability specifically mentions mage armor, most reasonable DMs will allow it to be affected as well. And since greater mage armor is just an extension on that, it makes sense logically. Particularly since I can't think of ANY abjuration spells that actually add an armor bonus off the top of my head. If the only spell which the ability worked with was shield, it'd be a pretty useless ability.

[Tyger]

Good ideas all, but I guess I forgot to mention the "no arcane caster" part.

What's everyone's thought on the Swordsage class from ToB? My DM has changed it to standard Fighter BAB, so its comparable that way. The Wisdom to AC in light armor could add up to a decent AC, if the stats are there anyway.

[Fax Celestis]

You could try the Scout with the Riposte variant, grabbing Combat Expertise and Improved Combat Expertise.

[Abstruse]

Hmmm, no arcane caster levels... OK.

Well, possibly a wood elf swordsage? High STR and DEX, and though the CON hit might be somewhat painful the lowered INT shouldn't have a substantial effect on that class. Combining the DEX bonus to AC with the WIS bonus, along with light armor (mithril would be a plus). The lack of shield proficiency would be a negative, though. Short of a substantial amount of magic, I can't see you breaking AC 25.

Another option would be scout/barbarian. High movement, decent protection in light armor with skirmish damage, and you can (with a bit of planning) go right into the Dervish PrC. For that, human, half-elf, half-orc, or goliath (from Races of Stone) would work.

[Person_Man]

Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash. High AC, healed by cold damage, high unarmed damage (6d8ish+), and Pounce.

Also, the psionic power Inertial Armor scales excellently, its a force effect, and it works particularly well for Psychic Warriors builds, which also have high damage outputs.

[Soepvork]

Yes, but as the description of the ability specifically mentions mage armor, most reasonable DMs will allow it to be affected as well. And since greater mage armor is just an extension on that, it makes sense logically. Particularly since I can't think of ANY abjuration spells that actually add an armor bonus off the top of my head. If the only spell which the ability worked with was shield, it'd be a pretty useless ability.

I agree with the stupidity of the way is was written, just wanted to prevent possible confusion.

As a matter of fact, I do think that, strictly speaken, the only spell that ability works with is shield

[Blue Paladin]

What's everyone's thought on the Swordsage class from ToB? My DM has changed it to standard Fighter BAB, so its comparable that way. The Wisdom to AC in light armor could add up to a decent AC, if the stats are there anyway.

Full BAB? Thereby negating the second greatest "weakness" of the class? And Adaptive Style to negate the actual greatest weakness of the class?

Take this before your DM becomes once again sane.

[Darrin]

What's everyone's thought on the Swordsage class from ToB? My DM has changed it to standard Fighter BAB, so its comparable that way. The Wisdom to AC in light armor could add up to a decent AC, if the stats are there anyway.

Excellent choice, even without the improved BAB. A high Dex build with Shadow Blade gets to apply his Dex bonus to both AC and damage. A TWF build at level 8 can eliminate all TWF penalties:

1 SwordSage 1 - Feat: TWF, Weapon Focus: Dagger, Stance: Island of Blades
2 SwordSage 2 - Wis bonus to AC in light armor
3 SwordSage 3 - Feat: Shadow Blade
4 SwordSage 4
5 SwordSage 5 - Stance: Assassin's Stance
6 SwordSage 6 - Feat: Adaptive Style
7 Bloodclaw Master 1
8 Bloodclaw Master 2 - No TWF penalties w/ dagger
9 Bloodclaw Master 3 - Feat: Improved TWF (or for you, Improved Critical)

AC 25 = 10 + 3 (Dex 15 + two stat increases) + 2 (Wis 14) +5 (Mithril Breastplate, 4200 GP) + 1 (Amulet of Natural Armor, 2000 GP) + 1 (Ring of Protection, 2000 GP) + 1 (Gloves of Dexterity, 4000 GP) + 2 (Ring of Force Shield, 8500 GP) (20,700 GP total)

BAB (normal SwordSage): +6/+6/+1/+1 (+8/+8/+3/+3 w/ Ftr BAB)
Average damage per hit 14.5 = 2.5 + 1 (Str 13) + 4 (Dex 17 + Gloves) + 7 (Assassin's Stance). Add Burning Blade (1d6+9) and it goes up to 27 per hit.

Or add a level of Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce and pick up Weapon Finesse with a level of Swashbuckler:

1 SwordSage 1 - Feat: TWF, Weapon Focus: Dagger, Stance: Island of Blades
2 Barbarian 1 - Pounce
3 Swashbuckler 1 - Feat: Weapon Finesse, Feat: Shadow Blade
4 SwordSage 2 - Wis bonus to AC in light armor
5 SwordSage 3
6 SwordSage 4 - Feat: Adaptive Style
7 SwordSage 5 - Stance: Assassin's Stance
8 Bloodclaw Master 1
9 Bloodclaw Master 2 - Feat: Improved TWF (or for you, Improved Critical), no TWF penalties

[yango]

Yes, but as the description of the ability specifically mentions mage armor, most reasonable DMs will allow it to be affected as well. And since greater mage armor is just an extension on that, it makes sense logically. Particularly since I can't think of ANY abjuration spells that actually add an armor bonus off the top of my head. If the only spell which the ability worked with was shield, it'd be a pretty useless ability.

IIRC someone on the WotC boards filed a CustServ question, and they responded saying that it was a typo. Mage Armor is a conjuration and is not affected. If you read the entry, it says that Abjurant Champions "use spells like mage armor and shield instead of armor" (worded like fluff text instead of actual rules). It doesn't say that mage armor gains the benefit of abjurant armor.

For the record, there are abjuration spells available to arcane casters that grant an armor bonus: Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor from BoED.

[Galdor Miriel]

Unless I missed an erratum or something, "Abjurant armor" only lets you add you AbjCh level to abjuration spells that grant a shield or armor bonus to AC. Since (Greater) mage armor is a conjuration spell, you won't get a bonus there.

I noticed that as well, but if you look at the example he has mage armor for +9 AC and in other parts of the test it mentions mage armor specifically. I am thinking of a similar combo to the above but I will check with my dm first to get the mage armor allowed.

Plus swift protection from evil for up to +7 to AC! The abjurant champion is cool.

If I do use him I plan on an interesting combo

Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Abjurer1/ Abjurant champion 5/ Daggerspell mage 8

With daring outlaw( cscoundrel) you only lose a few levels for sneak attack. You have a great BAB. You can cast spells while fighting with daggers. All your abjuration spells are extended. Lots of skills and ok spell casting.

[Draz74]

Swordsage with full BAB?

Full BAB? Thereby negating the second greatest "weakness" of the class? And Adaptive Style to negate the actual greatest weakness of the class?

Take this before your DM becomes once again sane.

QFT. Swordsage, with a few defensive maneuvers chosen, is an excellent choice even without the BAB boost. Excellent for what you're trying to do.

[yango]

I noticed that as well, but if you look at the example he has mage armor for +9 AC and in other parts of the test it mentions mage armor specifically. I am thinking of a similar combo to the above but I will check with my dm first to get the mage armor allowed.

There is no RAW that Mage Armor applies. Only an example stat block and the statement "abjurant champions use spells like Shield and Mage armor instead of armor." There is nowhere where it explicitly says that Mage Armor works. Additionally, CustServ has taken the stance that this is a typo on the part of the author, not knowing that Mage Armor is Conjuration.

That said, your DM is free to houserule (which he should do so, if he doesn't allow Luminous Armor from the Book of Exalted Deeds).

Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Abjurer1/ Abjurant champion 5/ Daggerspell mage 8

With daring outlaw( cscoundrel) you only lose a few levels for sneak attack. You have a great BAB. You can cast spells while fighting with daggers. All your abjuration spells are extended. Lots of skills and ok spell casting.

How great? Rogue, Swashbuckler, and Abjurer each lose you 1 point of BAB, and Daggerspell mage loses you at least 2 points of BAB (can't remember if its 3/4 BAB or 1/2), meaning you don't get the 4th attack. Also, Daggerspell Mage isn't the best way to get spell channeling, as there are othe classes that can do it without an undesirably low hit dice. Consider something like:
Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Unseen Seer 2/Swiftblade 3

+16 BAB, CL 17, Sneak Attack using Unseen Seer's 2nd level ability to learn Hunter's Eye, and Spell channeling through Spellsword, along with other goodies.

...or you could do straight Duskblade 20, which is still fantastic.

[Abstruse]

I noticed that as well, but if you look at the example he has mage armor for +9 AC and in other parts of the test it mentions mage armor specifically. I am thinking of a similar combo to the above but I will check with my dm first to get the mage armor allowed.

Plus swift protection from evil for up to +7 to AC! The abjurant champion is cool.

Sadly, the bonus from protection from evil is a deflection bonus rather than an armor or shield bonus. It gains no bonus from the Abjurant Champion ability.