A Couple Generic Classes (I think the term is PEACH?)

[Luccan]

Note: In future games, in the hope of bringing the Generics more in line with each other in terms of power and flexibility, I'm having Spellcasters use the Bard's spellcasting progression. The Psionicist was made with that in mind.

Edit: moved into post to encourage feedback

Edit 2: At the recommendation of those in the thread, I've changed the Psionicist's power progression slightly. I've also created ACFs/feats that I believe can replace the Martial Artist class, though I still stand by it as usable.

Psionicist (Generic Psionics Class)
HD: d4
Armor/Weapons: One simple weapon; no armor
Skills: 2+Int; choose four class skills, plus Craft, Knowledge (all), and Profession.
Psionic Ability Score: Int, Wis, or Cha
Powers Known: A Psionicist can potentially know any given power from any list, provided he can manifest powers of that level.

Level	BAB	Good Save	Poor Saves	Special	Power Points/Per day	Powers Known	Max Power Level Known
1st	+0	+2	+0	Bonus Feat	1*	2	1st
2nd	+1	+3	+0	--	4	3	1st
3rd	+1	+3	+1	--	7	4	1st
4th	+2	+4	+1	--	11	5	2nd
5th	+2	+4	+1	Bonus Feat	16	6	2nd
6th	+3	+5	+2	--	23	7	2nd
7th	+3	+5	+2	--	30	8	3rd
8th	+4	+6	+2	--	38	9	3rd
9th	+4	+6	+3	--	48	10	3rd
10th	+5	+7	+3	Bonus Feat	58	11	4th
11th	+5	+7	+3	--	70	12	4th
12th	+6/+1	+8	+4	--	84	13	4th
13th	+6/+1	+8	+4	--	98	14	5th
14th	+7/+2	+9	+4	--	113	15	5th
15th	+7/+2	+9	+5	Bonus Feat	130	16	5th
16th	+8/+3	+10	+5	--	147	17	6th
17th	+8/+3	+10	+5	--	166	18	6th
18th	+9/+4	+11	+6	--	186	19	6th
19th	+9/+4	+11	+6	--	207	20	6th
20th	+10/+5	+12	+6	Bonus Feat	228	21	6th

Martial Artist (Generic Monk/Battle Dancer)
HD: d8
Armor/Weapons: All simple weapons, three “monk” weapons; no armor
Skills: 4+int; 6 class skills, plus Craft, Perform, and Profession
AC Bonus: A Martial Artist adds either their Charisma or Wisdom Bonus to their AC when unarmored. This choice is made a 1st level and cannot be changed.

Level	BAB	Good Saves	Poor Save	Special	Unarmed Damage*	AC Bonus	Unarmored Speed Bonus
1st	+1	+2	+0	Bonus Feat	1d6	+0	+0 ft.
2nd	+2	+3	+0	--	1d6	+0	+0 ft.
3rd	+3	+3	+1	Bonus Feat	1d6	+0	+10 ft.
4th	+4	+4	+1	--	1d8	+0	+10 ft.
5th	+5	+4	+1	--	1d8	+1	+10 ft.
6th	+6/+1	+5	+2	Bonus Feat	1d8	+1	+20 ft.
7th	+7/+2	+5	+2	--	1d8	+1	+20 ft.
8th	+8/+3	+6	+2	--	1d10	+1	+20 ft.
9th	+9/+4	+6	+3	Bonus Feat	1d10	+1	+30 ft.
10th	+10/+5	+7	+3	--	1d10	+2	+30 ft.
11th	+11/+6/+1	+7	+3	--	1d10	+2	+30 ft.
12th	+12/+7/+2	+8	+4	Bonus Feat	2d6	+2	+40 ft.
13th	+13/+8/+3	+8	+4	--	2d6	+2	+40 ft.
14th	+14/+9/+4	+9	+4	--	2d6	+2	+40 ft.
15th	+15/+10/+5	+9	+5	Bonus Feat	2d6	+3	+50 ft.
16th	+16/+11/+6/+1	+10	+5	--	2d8	+3	+50 ft.
17th	+17/+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	--	2d8	+3	+50 ft.
18th	+18/+13/+8/+3	+11	+6	Bonus Feat	2d8	+3	+60 ft.
19th	+19/+14/+9/+4	+11	+6	--	2d8	+3	+60 ft.
20th	+20/+15/+10/+5	+12	+6	Bonus Feat	2d10	+4	+60 ft.

Alternately, you can use the following for unarmored characters and martial artists:

Unarmored Defense ACF:
Prereq: 1st level Expert or Warrior
Benefit: Lose all armor proficiencies. Gain an AC bonus = to 1/4 character level. Additionally, you may add your Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma bonus to your AC. Which bonus you add is determined when you take this ACF and may not be changed. You lose these bonuses when wearing armor.

Martial Arts Feat ACF:
Prereq: Proficiency in all simple weapons and at least one martial weapon. First level. Cannot take with first level of Martial Artist.
Benefit: You lose proficiency with your martial weapon(s) and all but three simple weapons. You gain a monk's unarmed strike and flurry of blows abilities, as well as proficiency with unarmed strikes. You also gain proficiency with a single monk weapon. The weapons you gain and retain may all be used with flurry of blows and you use your unarmed strike damage with your weapons if your unarmed strike damage is higher (your damage with unarmed strikes scales as a monk of your class level). At 4th level, your unarmed strikes count as magical for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 10th, they count as weapons aligned with one half of your alignment for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction (so if you are Chaotic Good, they are either Good or Chaotic. A True Neutral character may choose either Lawful or Chaotic). At 16th, they count as adamantine for the same purpose.
Special:For the purposes of this feat ACF, racial Weapon Proficiencies (such as Elves' proficiency with bows, longswords and rapiers) are not affected nor do they meet the requirements.

Note: Martial Artists benefit from the Flurry of Blows and Unarmed Strike damage for weapons section of the Martial Arts ACF, even though they can not take the ACF. Their unarmed strikes also gain the properties mentioned in the ACF at levels 4, 10, and 16.

Edit: Another viewing of the feat leads me to the conclusion that it should probably also be presented as an ACF, taken at 1st level. With the way I wrote it as a feat, you could lose proficiency with weapons later in your character's career, which doesn't really make sense.

First time submitting homebrew, but please let me know what I can improve. I'm looking for general feedback, but I have two large concerns I'd definitely like addressed:

1. I'm not as familiar with psionics as I'd like. I based the Psionicist's manifesting progression on a Psychic Warrior, as it seemed to my untrained eye to be similar to the Bard's spell progression (which I have decided the Spellcaster class will now use in games I run with Generics). Is it accurate to say the Psionicist should be relatively equal to the Spellcaster, or have I made an error that needs to be corrected?

2. I have no idea if I've overestimated or underestimated the Martial Artist's unique abilities. I want to believe I did a good job, but better safe than sorry. Is it mostly fine or have I in some way handicapped it or given it too many perks (like more skills than a Generic Warrior)? I'm considering offering the Warrior more skills as well, but really, I just need to know if there's anything major that needs to be adjusted with the Martial Artist so it's either worth picking or less of an obvious choice.

Beyond that, let me know if there's anything else you think I should do. Thank you in advance for your feedback.

[rferries]

Note: In future games, in the hope of bringing the Generics more in line with each other in terms of power and flexibility, I'm having Spellcasters use the Bard's spellcasting progression. The Psionicist was made with that in mind.

So, here they are

First time submitting homebrew, but please let me know what I can improve. I'm looking for general feedback, but I have two large concerns I'd definitely like addressed:

1. I'm not as familiar with psionics as I'd like. I based the Psionicist's manifesting progression on a Psychic Warrior, as it seemed to my untrained eye to be similar to the Bard's spell progression (which I have decided the Spellcaster class will now use in games I run with Generics). Is it accurate to say the Psionicist should be relatively equal to the Spellcaster, or have I made an error that needs to be corrected?

2. I have no idea if I've overestimated or underestimated the Martial Artist's unique abilities. I want to believe I did a good job, but better safe than sorry. Is it mostly fine or have I in some way handicapped it or given it too many perks (like more skills than a Generic Warrior)? I'm considering offering the Warrior more skills as well, but really, I just need to know if there's anything major that needs to be adjusted with the Martial Artist so it's either worth picking or less of an obvious choice.

Beyond that, let me know if there's anything else you think I should do. Thank you in advance for your feedback.

I'd post them directly in this thread, to encourage feedback.

The "any X class skills plus Y, Z, etc" is a fantastic idea.

"Martial Artist" is an infinitely better term than monk, IMHO. Kudos!

[Luccan]

I'd post them directly in this thread, to encourage feedback.

The "any X class skills plus Y, Z, etc" is a fantastic idea.

"Martial Artist" is an infinitely better term than monk, IMHO. Kudos!

I was mostly just following the example of the official generic classes, but thank you. And I took your advice and moved them into the post.

[Nifft]

Psionicist looked awful, until I saw that you were limiting all Spellcsters to Bard progression. With that Bard limitation in play, it's more likely that Psionicist is broken -- since you can Augment up to your manifester level, you can get e.g. psi dominate as a level 4 power (within the Bard limit) but Augment it up to dominate monster (a 9th level spell that exceeds Bard capability).

That said, a Bard-limited Generic Spellcaster still has access to planar binding, which also breaks the game... so maybe it's okay.


Martial Artist is very specifically a Monk, instead of giving bonus Feats and allowing you to build a Monk. It's not really what I'd think of as a Generic class -- it's more like a Beefy Martial Monk.

[Luccan]

Psionicist looked awful, until I saw that you were limiting all Spellcsters to Bard progression. With that Bard limitation in play, it's more likely that Psionicist is broken -- since you can Augment up to your manifester level, you can get e.g. psi dominate as a level 4 power (within the Bard limit) but Augment it up to dominate monster (a 9th level spell that exceeds Bard capability).

That said, a Bard-limited Generic Spellcaster still has access to planar binding, which also breaks the game... so maybe it's okay.


Martial Artist is very specifically a Monk, instead of giving bonus Feats and allowing you to build a Monk. It's not really what I'd think of as a Generic class -- it's more like a Beefy Martial Monk.

Hmm. Ok, how would you suggest I fix these problems? I could drop some of the extra features on the Martial Artist, I suppose. Make it just a warrior with better skills and saves, but worse HD, weapons, and armor (limit them to light?), with a special unarmed strike feature. Not sure what I can do about the Psionicist, obviously giving it and Spellcasters specific lists would be ideal, but then they aren't really generic. I suppose I could just ban certain spells/manifestations when using them. Although I'm not as concerned with potential brokenness at higher level play as I am at lower levels (thus the limiting of their progressions). Though if Psionicist really breaks at 10th, that's a concern.

[Nifft]

Hmm. Ok, how would you suggest I fix these problems? I could drop some of the extra features on the Martial Artist, I suppose. Make it just a warrior with better skills and saves, but worse HD, weapons, and armor (limit them to light?), with a special unarmed strike feature. Not sure what I can do about the Psionicist, obviously giving it and Spellcasters specific lists would be ideal, but then they aren't really generic. I suppose I could just ban certain spells/manifestations when using them. Although I'm not as concerned with potential brokenness at higher level play as I am at lower levels (thus the limiting of their progressions). Though if Psionicist really breaks at 10th, that's a concern.

Throw away the idea of having a special Monk class.

Work with Generic class ideas.

For example, as a feat:

Martial Artist [Generic]
Prereq: Armor proficiency, and proficiency with Simple weapons plus at least one Martial weapon
Benefit: You lose all Armor and Weapon proficiencies provided by your class(es). In their place, you gain a bonus to AC equal to (X + 1/4 character level), where X is your Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma bonus. Additionally, you gain the benefits of Improved Unarmed Strike, except your unarmed damage increases as follows (Monk damage table).

Now it works with Generic Expert and Generic Warrior, so you can create a sneaky skilled Monk or a battle-oriented Monk or some combination.


For Psionics, I dunno... I think you changed Generic Spellcaster for a reason, but I'm not sure specifically what your reason is. Do you have a handle on what (Lesser) Planar Binding and Summon Monster VI can do? Do you have a good grasp on what level 6 Psionic powers can do?

There might be no problem, or there might be a problem.

Level 6 spells can break a game, too.

[Luccan]

Throw away the idea of having a special Monk class.

Work with Generic class ideas.

For example, as a feat:

Martial Artist [Generic]
Prereq: Armor proficiency, and proficiency with Simple weapons plus at least one Martial weapon
Benefit: You lose all Armor and Weapon proficiencies provided by your class(es). In their place, you gain a bonus to AC equal to (X + 1/4 character level), where X is your Wisdom, Intelligence, or Charisma bonus. Additionally, you gain the benefits of Improved Unarmed Strike, except your unarmed damage increases as follows (Monk damage table).

Now it works with Generic Expert and Generic Warrior, so you can create a sneaky skilled Monk or a battle-oriented Monk or some combination.


For Psionics, I dunno... I think you changed Generic Spellcaster for a reason, but I'm not sure specifically what your reason is. Do you have a handle on what (Lesser) Planar Binding and Summon Monster VI can do? Do you have a good grasp on what level 6 Psionic powers can do?

There might be no problem, or there might be a problem.

Level 6 spells can break a game, too.

Interesting idea and Generics do encourage turning class features into feats. I wonder, should they still be allowed some simple weapon? A ranged one, specifically, so as to avoid that they have to be in melee combat at all times. And what about racial proficiencies, do you think those should be lost as well?

The idea was to still allow powerful spellcasting, but delaying it somewhat. I suppose I'd mostly want to know what I should look out for with the Psionicist's manifesting power, then. I know enough about spell casting that I'm aware even a few select 4th level spells can be game breaking (and I am considering ways to limit spell casting to 3rd level in other games), but for the purposes of building Generic classes that still fill a classic role, I'll probably stick to this for now. I may decide the Psionicist just won't work out and can it, but for now, I want to see if I can make a Generic Psionics class work without it completely overshadowing the others.

[aimlessPolymath]

Agreement on changing Martial Artist to a feat, except that I would break it up into a feat and a synergistic ACF:

Unarmored Defense (General)
Benefit: While wearing no armor, carrying no more than a medium load, and wielding no shied, you gain a defensive benefit. Choose one:
-An insight or dodge bonus to AC equal to your Intelligence bonus.
-A dodge, profane or sacred bonus to AC equal to your Wisdom bonus.
-A luck or deflection bonus to AC equal to your Charisma bonus.

And an ACF that trades away your armor and weapon proficiencies for Improved Unarmed Strike and monk strike progression/ki strike.

That way, you can still play an unarmored swashbuckler.


Psionicists are difficult, because they mix normal caster-level improvement (dice of damage per caster level) and higher level spells in one system (augmentation). Personally, I'd apply a special limit to how much you can spend on a power (basically as much as is needed for your highest level powers) and call it a day, leaving blaster-types to be sad?

Hm.
Empower Spell (or its equivalent) as a base, cheapened feat would roughly make up the damage differential...?

[Nifft]

Interesting idea and Generics do encourage turning class features into feats. I wonder, should they still be allowed some simple weapon? A ranged one, specifically, so as to avoid that they have to be in melee combat at all times. And what about racial proficiencies, do you think those should be lost as well?

Nah I'd leave racial proficiencies, so an Elf not-Monk would have some advantages. Also maybe allow one Simple weapon instead of losing all weapons... I dunno. It's a start at least :)

The idea was to still allow powerful spellcasting, but delaying it somewhat. I suppose I'd mostly want to know what I should look out for with the Psionicist's manifesting power, then. I know enough about spell casting that I'm aware even a few select 4th level spells can be game breaking (and I am considering ways to limit spell casting to 3rd level in other games), but for the purposes of building Generic classes that still fill a classic role, I'll probably stick to this for now. I may decide the Psionicist just won't work out and can it, but for now, I want to see if I can make a Generic Psionics class work without it completely overshadowing the others.

Well, how high do you plan for your game to go?

If they're never getting level 5 or 6 spells, then they're below 13th level, and all that stuff I said about hitting 9th level Psionic effects is moot.

If they are going to hit level 17, then you're going to need to deal with blatant game-breakers like (lesser) planar binding, so the potential Psionics Augmentations are maybe okay.

My suggestion would be:
- Read through the Psionics power lists, especially focusing on the Specialist powers: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowerList.htm
- Look for powers under level 6 with Augmentation; see if the Augmentations that will apply at your campaign's class levels will be problematic.
- Give more power points. Right now, you've got the Psychic Warrior power point allocation, which is viable for a long-term self-buffer (like the Psychic Warrior). It's not viable for a blaster. You could take the Psion table and give 2/3 of the power points for a progression like:

Spoiler: PP Progression

Show

1
4
7
11
16
23
30
38
48
58
70
84
98
113
130
147
166
186
207
228

I'd also suggest giving 2 powers known at level 1, and then 1 power each level after.

[Luccan]

Well, how high do you plan for your game to go?

If they're never getting level 5 or 6 spells, then they're below 13th level, and all that stuff I said about hitting 9th level Psionic effects is moot.

If they are going to hit level 17, then you're going to need to deal with blatant game-breakers like (lesser) planar binding, so the potential Psionics Augmentations are maybe okay.

My suggestion would be:
- Read through the Psionics power lists, especially focusing on the Specialist powers: http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowerList.htm
- Look for powers under level 6 with Augmentation; see if the Augmentations that will apply at your campaign's class levels will be problematic.
- Give more power points. Right now, you've got the Psychic Warrior power point allocation, which is viable for a long-term self-buffer (like the Psychic Warrior). It's not viable for a blaster. You could take the Psion table and give 2/3 of the power points for a progression like:

Spoiler: PP Progression

Show

1
4
7
11
16
23
30
38
48
58
70
84
98
113
130
147
166
186
207
228

I'd also suggest giving 2 powers known at level 1, and then 1 power each level after.

So just... Give them one extra power? Thank you for the advice on power points, I wasn't sure it would work out, so that's a needed piece of advice.

I'll definitely be taking a look through the Augmentations and Powers.

[Nifft]

So just... Give them one extra power?

At the very least, yeah. That puts them on par with the Ardent's power progression.

I'll definitely be taking a look through the Augmentations and Powers.

For reference, check out what Summon Monster VI can do in terms of expanding your spell repertoire: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9094

... then read up on the horrors that (Lesser) Planar Binding can unleash.

[Luccan]

At the very least, yeah. That puts them on par with the Ardent's power progression.

For reference, check out what Summon Monster VI can do in terms of expanding your spell repertoire: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=9094

... then read up on the horrors that (Lesser) Planar Binding can unleash.

Do you think I should just match the powers known to the Bard's total spells known at each level? They do come out slightly ahead.

Yeah, there are definite issues with Summon Monster and (Lesser) Planar Binding. Other spells too, of course, but those are fairly egregious examples, really being multiple spells in one and all.

[Nifft]

Do you think I should just match the powers known to the Bard's total spells known at each level? They do come out slightly ahead.

I dunno. Powers are usually more flexible than spells. For example a Psion needs only one energy missile to target Fire, Cold, Sonic, and Electricity damage. A generic Spellcaster would need to spend at least 2 spells to target the most common vulnerabilities (Fire & Cold), and even then the spell might not scale above 10d6 -- the optimal blaster would need one at least spell per spell level dedicated to blasting, while a Psion would be fine having two total (energy missile and energy ball, for example).

Similarly, a Spellcaster might want charm person and also charm monster, which is only one power for a Psion.

Spellcasters do have some amazingly flexible spells -- alter self and summon monster IV spring to mind, as do major image and shadow conjuration -- but overall a Psion can just as much with fewer powers.

Yeah, there are definite issues with Summon Monster and (Lesser) Planar Binding. Other spells too, of course, but those are fairly egregious examples, really being multiple spells in one and all.

Well, they're not necessarily problems, but they do tend to raise the power curve significantly.

Maybe it's okay that a Psion can psi dominate a Dragon, and a Spellcaster can planar bind a platoon of Devils.

Maybe that's what high level means in your world.

[Luccan]

I dunno. Powers are usually more flexible than spells. For example a Psion needs only one energy missile to target Fire, Cold, Sonic, and Electricity damage. A generic Spellcaster would need to spend at least 2 spells to target the most common vulnerabilities (Fire & Cold), and even then the spell might not scale above 10d6 -- the optimal blaster would need one at least spell per spell level dedicated to blasting, while a Psion would be fine having two total (energy missile and energy ball, for example).

Similarly, a Spellcaster might want charm person and also charm monster, which is only one power for a Psion.

Spellcasters do have some amazingly flexible spells -- alter self and summon monster IV spring to mind, as do major image and shadow conjuration -- but overall a Psion can just as much with fewer powers.

Well, they're not necessarily problems, but they do tend to raise the power curve significantly.

Maybe it's okay that a Psion can psi dominate a Dragon, and a Spellcaster can planar bind a platoon of Devils.

Maybe that's what high level means in your world.

That's a good point about powers. Maybe a few fewer is fine.

I'd be comfortable with that being the upper end of power in my setting. I like starting in the 1-3 range for most games anyway.