OOTS #1103 - The Discussion Thread

[PontificatusRex]

That was Sunfire, which is not a core spell:


I remember it from Baldur’s Gate (Tales of the Sword Coast extension, D&D 2); the bad guy at Durlag’s Tower cast that spell, immediately followed by teleporting out until the next meeting.

Yeah, Sunfire had the problem of blasting your whole party unless your mage was all by themselves - usually not a great option. Definitely no good here.

On the other hand, we do know that V has the perfect spell for this situation in his spellbook because she's used it - Wall of Fire.

One side of the wall, selected by you, sends forth waves of heat, dealing 2d4 points of fire damage to creatures within 10 feet and 1d4 points of fire damage to those past 10 feet but within 20 feet. The wall deals this damage when it appears and on your turn each round to all creatures in the area. In addition, the wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage +1 point of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20) to any creature passing through it. The wall deals double damage to undead creatures.

That's an average of 48 damage to any vamp trying to get through - probably enough to toast the majority of them. Cast Wall, lower Forcecage, and commence the Slaying.

[Jasdoif]

The Elven Gods didn't start caucusing with the Western Gods as soon as they ascended - I believe there was a comment made somewhere about folks not knowing why they vote with them and not on their own.

The Elven gods are elf-specific associates of certain Western Gods; the Elven gods are still part of the Western Gods....While the Dark One is still not part of the Northern/Western/Southern pantheons.

And given the late arrival of Hel's priest

Which didn't even happen. You may notice HPoH was in the main chamber before the Godsmoot started.

I'm not saying it's going to happen this way, just that it could, and I think it would be a nifty twist.

...no, using frayed excuses to obviate the Order's contributions for the entire book is not a "nifty twist".

[a1chemi]

Yeah, Sunfire had the problem of blasting your whole party unless your mage was all by themselves - usually not a great option. Definitely no good here.

On the other hand, we do know that V has the perfect spell for this situation in his spellbook because she's used it - Wall of Fire.

One side of the wall, selected by you, sends forth waves of heat, dealing 2d4 points of fire damage to creatures within 10 feet and 1d4 points of fire damage to those past 10 feet but within 20 feet. The wall deals this damage when it appears and on your turn each round to all creatures in the area. In addition, the wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage +1 point of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20) to any creature passing through it. The wall deals double damage to undead creatures.

That's an average of 48 damage to any vamp trying to get through - probably enough to toast the majority of them. Cast Wall, lower Forcecage, and commence the Slaying.

In response to everyone proposing sunburst, wall of fire, etc:

If V could solve this with a single spell, she would have done so already. (maybe even without casting the forcecage)

Also not a lot of room in that cage for a wall of fire that doesn't roast them too.

[zimmerwald1915]

If V could solve this with a single spell, she would have done so already. (maybe even without casting the forcecage)

Not necessarily. Panic is a thing, and once the forcecage was cast, they were stuck with it.

Also not a lot of room in that cage for a wall of fire that doesn't roast them too.

This is a better argument. While it's true that only one side of a wall of fire radiates heat (for some reason), the forcecage is small enough and enclosed enough that it would retain that heat and turn it back on the Order. Dismissing the forcecage and then casting quickened wall of fire would be a better option, but Vaarsuvius almost certainly doesn't have the latter prepared [anymore, if she had it in the first place]. They could also just tank the damage for a round, but I have my doubts that's where this is going.

[Kish]

(for some reason)

The difference between the often-useful spell they want it to be and a highly situational spell, I would guess.

[alwaysbebatman]

While it's true that only one side of a wall of fire radiates heat (for some reason), the forcecage is small enough and enclosed enough that it would retain that heat and turn it back on the Order.

Where do you get the idea that a Wall of Fire would ever heat or do damage to the other side of the wall? Nothing in the spell description hints at this....

[Jasdoif]

This is a better argument. While it's true that only one side of a wall of fire radiates heat (for some reason), the forcecage is small enough and enclosed enough that it would retain that heat and turn it back on the Order. Dismissing the forcecage and then casting quickened wall of fire would be a better option, but Vaarsuvius almost certainly doesn't have the latter prepared [anymore, if she had it in the first place]. They could also just tank the damage for a round, but I have my doubts that's where this is going.

I think the big question with the wall of fire route, is how much does it accomplish? Placing it over the vampires huddled against the forcecage would do an admirable job incinerating them, but the forcecage itself blocks spells so it'd have to be dismissed first to do that.

Putting it just inside the forcecage set to radiate outward so it burns vampires when the forcecage is dismissed...is pretty close to the same situation they're in now; except the vampires need to be twenty feet farther back, or get some fire resistance, or deal 20 points of cold damage, or....Wall of fire creates an opaque sheet of flame, which (assuming it doesn't block line of effect outright) is going to make any sort of targeting hit or miss at best. I suppose charging forward through their own wall, soaking the fire damage to make some sort of surprise attack, is an option; but between not seeing what's there in advance and the same risk of getting swarmed that led to the forcecage response in the first place, it seems like another step backwards.

Now, since it is an opaque sheet, it would block line of sight; so using it to block gaze attacks while leaving the forcecage up should work, and maybe give them some extra time between dismissing the forcecage and enacting whatever plan to deal with the vampires. But they'd still need to come with that plan, they could just do it with their eyes open...with only themselves and a sheet of flame to look at.

[a1chemi]

Putting it just inside the forcecage set to radiate outward so it burns vampires when the forcecage is dismissed...is pretty close to the same situation they're in now; except the vampires need to be twenty feet farther back, or get some fire resistance, or deal 20 points of cold damage, or....Wall of fire creates an opaque sheet of flame, which (assuming it doesn't block line of effect outright) is going to make any sort of targeting hit or miss at best. I suppose charging forward through their own wall, soaking the fire damage to make some sort of surprise attack, is an option; but between not seeing what's there in advance and the same risk of getting swarmed that led to the forcecage response in the first place, it seems like another step backwards.

Other problem is gaseous fom. Vampires have been trying to seep past things this whole arc. Couldn't they just seep past the wall of fire? It's not a cage of fire.

Now, since it is an opaque sheet, it would block line of sight; so using it to block gaze attacks while leaving the forcecage up should work, and maybe give them some extra time between dismissing the forcecage and enacting whatever plan to deal with the vampires. But they'd still need to come with that plan, they could just do it with their eyes open...with only themselves and a sheet of flame to look at.

I feel like thia could be accomplished by huddling together to block each others' line of sight. Or talking with their eyes closed.

[Jasdoif]

Other problem is gaseous fom. Vampires have been trying to seep past things this whole arc. Couldn't they just seep past the wall of fire? It's not a cage of fire.

Solid forcecage is 10 feet high, wall of fire is 20 feet high. If the section of tunnel is 20 feet tall or less, which appears likely, they'd still have to cross it and take the normal damage for doing so.

[PontificatusRex]

The Elven gods are elf-specific associates of certain Western Gods; the Elven gods are still part of the Western Gods....While the Dark One is still not part of the Northern/Western/Southern pantheons.

Which didn't even happen. You may notice HPoH was in the main chamber before the Godsmoot started.

Let's just say that I'm sure RB could explain in in a way that would narratively logical without a problem if that is the way he wanted to take it.

...no, using frayed excuses to obviate the Order's contributions for the entire book is not a "nifty twist".

Well, that's the way you would imagine it, evidently.

[Jasdoif]

Let's just say that I'm sure RB could explain in in a way that would narratively logical without a problem if that is the way he wanted to take it.

That "if" would be the big hurtle, yes.

Well, that's the way you would imagine it, evidently.

Perhaps if you could explain why it would be "nifty"?

Redcloak showing up and preventing the tie when the Godsmoot was in full swing and the Order was there, that could've been interesting (and probably result in an entirely different story than the one we're in now, but still interesting). Showing up there to undo the tie now, no matter how coherently presented, looks more like obviating everything's the Order's gone through to try to stop Hel. As an afterthought.

[PontificatusRex]

I think the big question with the wall of fire route, is how much does it accomplish? Placing it over the vampires huddled against the forcecage would do an admirable job incinerating them, but the forcecage itself blocks spells so it'd have to be dismissed first to do that.

...

Now, since it is an opaque sheet, it would block line of sight; so using it to block gaze attacks while leaving the forcecage up should work, and maybe give them some extra time between dismissing the forcecage and enacting whatever plan to deal with the vampires. But they'd still need to come with that plan, they could just do it with their eyes open...with only themselves and a sheet of flame to look at.

There's a ton of ways it would be different if one bothers to stop and think about them. wall of Fire would damage all vampires that are close, so they would have to back up past 20' - far better than having a dozen vamps within arm's reach as soon as the spell end. The vamps are a crowd in a tunnel, so even without seeing them there's a good chance Haley's arrows (Strip 860) and V's spells would hit them - especially spells like Prismatic Spray. Heck, Roy, could even take a random swipe with that long bladed weapon and hit someone right on the other side of the fire and still be out of its effects.

[PontificatusRex]

That "if" would be the big hurtle, yes.

Perhaps if you could explain why it would be "nifty"?

Redcloak showing up and preventing the tie when the Godsmoot was in full swing and the Order was there, that could've been interesting (and probably result in an entirely different story than the one we're in now, but still interesting). Showing up there to undo the tie now, no matter how coherently presented, looks more like obviating everything's the Order's gone through to try to stop Hel. As an afterthought.

It would be nifty because I like Redcloak. And there are plenty of ways it could happen without making the last story arc an irrelevant sidequest. Maybe it's the Order themselves that figure out Redcloak could break the tie in their favor and contact them via O-Chul contacting the MItD. Maybe Redcloak finally breaks with Xykon and takes the cleric spot in the OotS while Durkula teams with Xykon.

There are tons of interesting ways the story could go. Not sure why some folks need to spend a bunch of time trying to make other folks believe that story ideas they don't like couldn't happen.

[Peelee]

stuff

more stuff

The button to the right of the "Reply with quote" button is a Multiquote button. It lets you quote multiple posts simultaneously, allowing you to respond to them all in one post. Conversely, you can edit your first reply to include other stuff that was posted while you were writing.

[PontificatusRex]

The button to the right of the "Reply with quote" button is a Multiquote button. It lets you quote multiple posts simultaneously, allowing you to respond to them all in one post. Conversely, you can edit your first reply to include other stuff that was posted while you were writing.

Two different topics, two different posts.

[Keltest]

Two different topics, two different posts.

Since you seem to be new to posting here, I highly recommend that you take a gander over at the forum rules linked here for your convenience. Among other topics, they speak about the practice of double posting, specifically that it is preferred that we not do it.

[luna the cat]

I for one greatly appreciate that rape jokes are a thing of the past with this comic. Thankfully there are many ways to be funny that don't involve rape jokes. I refresh the Order of the Stick every day, sometimes two or three times a day, and if Rich defended rape jokes I would not read the comic at all. It is not about being arbitrarily offended as some people try to say.

[Eric 541]

Well, well. Durkula has identified V as the most dangerous enemy. Which, by OotS logic, means that V will not be the most dangerous enemy.

It is time for Elan to rise.

Also, brother Sandstone is a nasty piece of work now that he's a vampire.

I was thinking Elan could cast an illusion of the Forcecage before V Dismisses the real Forcecage. As long as the vamps aren't touching the cage, they may not notice, then the Order might be able to surprise them.

Not sure how Roy could communicate this to the group without the vamps hearing though...Do vamps have super-hearing in OOTS?

[zoofroot]

Putting it just inside the forcecage set to radiate outward so it burns vampires when the forcecage is dismissed...is pretty close to the same situation they're in now...

One difference is that a wall of fire will only last a couple minutes, giving V a chance to ready an offensive spell for the moment it ends.

[Manty5]

I was thinking Elan could cast an illusion of the Forcecage before V Dismisses the real Forcecage. As long as the vamps aren't touching the cage, they may not notice, then the Order might be able to surprise them.

Not sure how Roy could communicate this to the group without the vamps hearing though...Do vamps have super-hearing in OOTS?

If you recall the escape from Azure city, V helped Elan with the Celestial Lion illusion. If Elan was capable of figuring out coded phrases like "Elan, make the lion advance slowly into the forcecage", that might work.

[Toper]

The Order does have some experience taking advantage of monsters with preset targeting orders. I like the idea of V sacrificing themself to become a target, with whatever defenses they can muster. Fiendish intervention is certainly possible but I doubt V would count on it. Haste plus Overland Flight would let V fly 70 feet in a move after dismissing the spell, if I have the rules right, which is well outside dwarven charging range (40 ft) but still leaves V open to attacks of opportunity.

[Gwynfrid]

The Order does have some experience taking advantage of monsters with preset targeting orders. I like the idea of V sacrificing themself to become a target, with whatever defenses they can muster. Fiendish intervention is certainly possible but I doubt V would count on it. Haste plus Overland Flight would let V fly 70 feet in a move after dismissing the spell, if I have the rules right, which is well outside dwarven charging range (40 ft) but still leaves V open to attacks of opportunity.

You may be on to something there. I don't see V sacrificing herself, since doing so would severely reduce the Order's chances of beating Durkon* ,then Xykon at a later point. Her sacrifice wouldn't save the world. But, quite possibly, she could exploit the vampires' stated orders. Maybe an illusion made to look like her to serve as decoy (something like Mislead comes to mind).

In any case, V has been shown on several occasions as a pretty shrewd tactical combatant (when not drunk on Soul Splice power). Roy is a smart guy too, and Haley's no slouch. I'm pretty sure they'll come up with a solution that's more interesting than V just pulling one or the other spell out of her hat.

[The MunchKING]

I was thinking Elan could cast an illusion of the Forcecage before V Dismisses the real Forcecage. As long as the vamps aren't touching the cage, they may not notice, then the Order might be able to surprise them.

Maybe an illusion made to look like her to serve as decoy (something like Mislead comes to mind).

Aren't most illusions Mind-Affecting though? Undead are Immune to Mind-Affecting Spells.

[Jasdoif]

Aren't most illusions Mind-Affecting though?

While there are a few mind-affecting Illusion spells, most illusions create actual images/sounds/etc. as their effect. Creatures perceive those because the effect does actually exist to see/hear/etc.

[Gwynfrid]

Aren't most illusions Mind-Affecting though? Undead are Immune to Mind-Affecting Spells.

Many, not most. We're getting technical here, but here goes, from the SRD:

"An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
[...] Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)."

As it's neither a phantasm or a pattern, Mislead isn't mind-affecting. This is the same reason why V could use Invisibility to hide from Xykon, and why Malack needed True Seeing to see through Elan's Silent Image.

[zimmerwald1915]

This is the same reason why V could use Invisibility to hide from Xykon

Odd, I was under the impression that Vaarsuvius couldn't use invisibility to hide from Xykon.

[Hamste]

Odd, I was under the impression that Vaarsuvius couldn't use invisibility to hide from Xykon.

Well they could have but it turns out some creatures can actually hear. He doesn't even have ears, who would have guessed that he actually got listen checks.

[Peelee]

Odd, I was under the impression that Vaarsuvius couldn't use invisibility to hide from Xykon.

Well, depends on his Move Silently check, I'd wager.

[factotum]

Odd, I was under the impression that Vaarsuvius couldn't use invisibility to hide from Xykon.

Xykon found him because he heard him moving, not because he was able to see through the invisibility due to being undead.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well they could have but it turns out some creatures can actually hear. He doesn't even have ears, who would have guessed that he actually got listen checks.

Well, depends on his Move Silently check, I'd wager.

Xykon found him because he heard him moving, not because he was able to see through the invisibility due to being undead.

*The Joke*















*y'all*