Wild Cohort + Beastmaster

[Benejeseret]

Greetings,

I am hoping to approach my DM with the following tweak for consideration. I am hoping first to get some feedback to ensure this idea is balanced appropriately.

**My question: Upon gaining a second animal companion via Beastmaster PrC, could I, or what would need to happen in order to, combine my Wild Cohort as my second Companion?

Wild Cohort (Feat): grants an animal cohort that levels with you (based on total character level, weaker leveling than a druid)

ie. Classes: Ranger6/Beastmaster1
Has an animal companion with +4 HD +4NA +2Str/Dex +3 tricks Ev/Dev/Link/Share
And a cohort via feat of +3HD +3NA +1Str/Dex +2 tricks Evasion

Upon Class lvl Ranger6/BM4
Has first animal companion of +6HD +6NA +3Str/Dex +4 Tricks +Multiattack
Has second companion of +2HD +2NA +1Str/Dex +2 Tricks Link/Share/Ev
And a cohort of +5HD +5NA +2Str/Dex +3 Tricks Evasion

Would it be reasonable to have the Cohort become the second animal companion?

Option 1) Upon Class lvl Ranger6/BM4
Has first animal companion of +6HD +6NA +3Str/Dex +4 Tricks +Multiattack
Has second companion of +7HD +7NA +3Str/Dex +5 Tricks Link/Share/Ev

Or would you advise adding a penalty (as if the 'animal companion' addition was a template of sorts). What penalty would be appropriate to balance this? -1HD, decrease one of the two leveling tables? Simply adding the two level progressions makes a animal more powerful than your original which seems wrong to me. Basically the cohort to companion switch adds Link/Sharespells, +2 to handle (cohort already +2), and the handling goes from move action to free action. In exchange you loose the second normal companion (which was a normal companion -3 level).

Option 1) Upon Class lvl Ranger6/BM4 ((-1HD modified penalty))
Has first animal companion of +6HD +6NA +3Str/Dex +4 Tricks +Multiattack
Has second companion of +6HD +6NA +3Str/Dex +4 Tricks Link/Share/Ev

This would make the two animals equal in power, which I like in flavour as they are the pack to the beastmaster. Is it within reason regarding balance and gameplay?

Thanks for the feedback

Bene

[Person_Man]

You cannot combine a Cohort with your Animal Companion. The rules are pretty clear about this. Nor do I think you should be able to houserule it, as you'd end up with an animal more powerful then most PC's.

Also, for ECL 6 through 15, the Beast Heart Adept is superior to the Beastmaster. Your animals tend to be a bit more powerful, and you gain some wildly useful abilities, such as Monster Empathy (Diplomacy for Magical Beasts and low Int animals and abberations), and tons of free AoO when fighting with your companions.

[Benejeseret]

Thanks personman. You have suggested Beast Heart Adept once before to me on a similar thread...I just do not quite like its flavour just yet (you may still convince me one day though).

In regards to the cohort/companion. I fully (FULLY) agree that the cohort and companion could not be combined as the primary companion as the total HD would be staggering and much more powerful than PC's

But in the way I am looking at it as the secondary animal companion for a Beastmaster it will never be more powerful than your primary animal assuming a penalty of some sort is constructed beyond just loosing one animal (2+cohort to just 2). Even without a penalty we are talking about 3 level progressions for my PC to gain the cohort (requiring a oh so limited feat slot) for a +2HD and companion status, at the loss of druid or ranger feat/ability/spell progression.

Also, I am NOT proposing that it continues to level on both tables. Rather it levels as a cohort until it becomes a companion...and then it levels only as a companion from there on out.

Does having it SWITCH from one advancement table to another help?
Basically I want to avoid the accumulation of weak companions as a beastmaster in favour of more powerful ones with the loss of a feat.

[Benejeseret]

To bring this arguement further. I am very dissapointed with Natural Bond in comparison to Wild Cohort. Lets compare the two assuming you take them by, or level up to, lvl 18 (way beyond my character but important in the end and for sake of the arguement)

Natural Bond
(+3 druid levels to only one companion) So effectivley at any level it is +2HD, +2NA and +1Str/Dex with a new trick and possibly feat addition to ONE animal.

Wild Cohort
(gain an animal cohort) Adds another animal with at final levels adds +11HD +11NA +5Str/Dex +6tricks with Improved Evasion and Devotion. Given the fact that it adds another animal, thus more actions and the animal starts with HD.
- In turn it allows the animal to pick 3-4 feats of its own

With animal handling maxing out at DC 12 (autopass at even low-mid levels) this feat basically gives you 5 feats for the PC slot of one and another 12-14HD 'adventurer'.

Though on par with the Leadership feat normally, I believe I am in fact making the feat weaker by half by combining it with the beastmasters second animal companion.

((assuming level tables switch - not dual progression)) It adds +5HD +5Na +3Str/Dex +4tricks to the companion.

This more powerful than Natural Bond (by roughly half) but still half as powerful as having the extra cohort animal.

Or...am I completely missing some suble math or functional game mechanic?

[Stephen_E]

You're missing that Natural Bond increases the strength of your animal companion beyond the normal maximum strength.
i.e. The 10th lev Druid takes Natural Bond and can now take a companion with a -3 penalty and still have full advancement.

Wild Cohort just gives you a weak animal companion.

It's the old, a 10th lev Fighter is better than two 7th level fighters.

Stephen

[Benejeseret]

Have to dissagree on the natural bond usage. To me it is similar to practiced spell caster.

It gives +3 to druid level in regards to animal companion BUT it cannot increase this above your level.

An animal with a -3 adjustment does not lower YOUR druid level, it decreases its effects of your druid level.

A pure druid should not benefit from natural bond.

A multiclassed druid does as it brings his overall 'druidy' level back up to par in regards to an animal.

Bene

**P.S. Also, according to the wild cohort table the animal is only 1 HD lower than a normal druid animal. Is it weaker...yes...but hardly weak.

[Overlard]

Which book is Wild Cohort in?

[Stephen_E]

Have to dissagree on the natural bond usage. To me it is similar to practiced spell caster.

It gives +3 to druid level in regards to animal companion BUT it cannot increase this above your level.

An animal with a -3 adjustment does not lower YOUR druid level, it decreases its effects of your druid level.

A pure druid should not benefit from natural bond.

A multiclassed druid does as it brings his overall 'druidy' level back up to par in regards to an animal.

Bene

**P.S. Also, according to the wild cohort table the animal is only 1 HD lower than a normal druid animal. Is it weaker...yes...but hardly weak.

The penalty for alternative animal companions reduces your Druid level for advancement purposes - From SRD
----------------
Alternative Animal Companions

A druid of sufficiently high level can select her animal companion from one of the following lists, applying the indicated adjustment to the druid’s level (in parentheses) for purposes of determining the companion’s characteristics and special abilities.
-----------------

Natural Bond increase your effective Druid level for the purposes of AC advancement, but not beyond your total HD.

So a 10th lev Druid who takes an Ape is reduced to effective lev 7, and then Natural Bond increase it back up to lev 10.

I'd note that, while it's indicative rather than definitive, WizCustSer agrees with this.

But regardless this is RAW how Natural Bond works.

Re: Wild Cohort. - While it only 1 HD down on the standard stuff, it misses some of the special abilities, and if you want to take a Wild Cohort from the alternative Animal Companion list you take an additional -3 lev penalty. So that Ape will be a -6 lev penalty as a Wild Cohort. If you're just after a souped up horse that's no problem, but all the other companions that are useful at higher levels tend to be from the alternative list.

Overlard Wild Cohort is from the Wizards site. An online article whose name temporaily escapes me.

Stephen

[Arbitrarity]

Fool! CustServ supports it, proving it is false!

[Bauglir]

One need first determine the order in which the effects take place. I choose to assume that the level increase takes place before the level decrease, and since the increase can't go above your max HD, you gain no benefit. Less broken and all that.

[Stephen_E]

One need first determine the order in which the effects take place. I choose to assume that the level increase takes place before the level decrease, and since the increase can't go above your max HD, you gain no benefit. Less broken and all that.

1) Actually there's be stuff on it indicating it keeps checking.
So if you do it 1st it looks and say "no, he's already at his HD level". You then take the lev penalty and it looks again "hey, he's got space for 3 more levels".

2) What's broken about it? Really!

Stephen

[AtomicKitKat]

Whenever that countdown finishes, this is the link.

[Benejeseret]

In the end it hardly matters unless the universe folds and we end up in the same game...then we roll d20's to the death!! :)

I have found a way to make my Beastmaster low level companions kindof useful in combat...Aid Another so I can pump up power attack. So I do not feel so bad about having them around. I will still go with Wild Cohort though and keep her around to take the tactical feats my main cannot handlle.

My vision for a perfect combat round once around lvl 15ish:

Cohort riding dog charges into combat (ideally setting up a flank) and sunders the enemies shield...and due to the plethora of feats (power attack, improved sunder and combat brute) also hits the villian for damage which allows a trip attempt which knocks the now shieldless mob on his arse.
My lowly beasts follow me up to the villian and Aid Another on my PC (roundly +4 to hit).
My PC/Main companion flying team now swoop in for a diving, spirited charge empowered by a LARGE power attack boost (the mob is shieldless, prone, and +4 Aid Another)
That is one hard hitting Lance attack and as for the main Dire Bat...I have not descided whether to boost damage output (ie. improved natural weapon) or go down another combat/ability tree for some other tactical edge....maybe a improved bull rush to move the enemy far away from my squishy little companions and so the whole scenario is setup to repeat this whole charge process over again.

Hmmm....Can you Bull Rush a prone opponent?

Bene