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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

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    Jul 2007
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    Default Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    Welcome to Junkyard Stadium! It is in this hallowed pile of miscellaneous parts that we will hold a competition of Practical Optimization with three components. The catch? Competitors may not use the third item in their builds!

    Goal: Create a build that showcases the selected ingredients while steering clear of the Forbidden Ingredient.


    This competition has two Necessary Components and one Forbidden Component. This round's components are...


    • Necessary: From Dungeonscape... the Trapsmith prestige class!
    • Necessary: From Complete Scoundrel... the Combat Trapsmith prestige class!
    • Forbidden: From PHB... the Rogue base class!


    This round has all the trappings! *groan*

    Round-Specific FAQ

    Contestants:

    The rules are as follows:
    • Creation: 32 point-buy is the presumed creation method. You may assume that you will have enough exp to reach ECL 20, and that the occasional bit of crafting, use of spells with exp components, or the like won't prevent you from doing so. However, LA buyoff is an alternate rule which is not in play.
    • Workshop: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. If you use web material, please link it. Dragon Magazine Compendium is allowed, as are Oriental Adventures and the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt and fractional saves are not allowed, as they create a different playing field.
    • Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until after the reveal in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
    • Disputes: Any scoring disputes should be sent to the Chair via PM. Valid disputes include RAW misreadings, arithmetic errors, things missed that are present in the entry, and inconsistently applied criteria. Invalid disputes include disagreements on matters of opinion, a judge not catching something not explicitly presented in the entry, and the like. Invalid disputes will be responded to via PM by the Chair, but valid disputes will be posted in-thread for the judge to review. When disputing, please indicate the judge the dispute is intended for and provide a quote of the disputed comment or comments. Note: the Chair may edit or paraphrase any disputes in presenting them to the judges.
    • Leadership is banned: We're creating one thing, not all of the things. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.
    • Presentation: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability throughout its life. Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries. Also for this reason, PLEASE do not include any material that may or may not offend any potential viewers/judges/competitors OR break forum rules. Any builds which violate forum rules WILL be withheld from posting.

    Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, please use the following table for their entry.
    Spoiler
    Show
    NAME OF ENTRY
    Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
    1st New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    2nd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    3rd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    4th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    5th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    6th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    7th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    8th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    9th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    10th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    11th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    12th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    13th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    14th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    15th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    16th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    17th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    18th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    19th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    20th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities

    Code immediately below (spoiler).
    Spoiler
    Show
    [table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]
    For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Level 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st - - - - - - - - - -
    2nd - - - - - - - - - -
    3rd - - - - - - - - - -
    4th - - - - - - - - - -
    5th - - - - - - - - - -
    6th - - - - - - - - - -
    7th - - - - - - - - - -
    8th - - - - - - - - - -
    9th - - - - - - - - - -
    10th - - - - - - - - - -
    11th - - - - - - - - - -
    12th - - - - - - - - - -
    13th - - - - - - - - - -
    14th - - - - - - - - - -
    15th - - - - - - - - - -
    16th - - - - - - - - - -
    17th - - - - - - - - - -
    18th - - - - - - - - - -
    19th - - - - - - - - - -
    20th - - - - - - - - - -
    Code immediately below (spoiler)
    Spoiler
    Show
    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
    [th][B]1st[/B][/th]
    [th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]4th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]5th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]6th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]7th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]8th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]9th[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]
    For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.

    Judges:

    • Scoring: Each judge is required to provide the criteria by which they are judging the builds. By "criteria," we mean a simple explanation of what the judge is looking for in each of the below categories and what kind of scoring we can expect. If a judge deems a build to be illegal, they may provide a 0 in Elegance but may not refuse to judge any build presented by the Chairman.
    • The Categories: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Components.

      • Originality: Is the build unique? Does it deviate from the obvious? Does it forge its own path, or does it fall back on common, established optimization tricks? Some judges score entries for the quality of their concept & backstory as well, though not all do. Providing at least some backstory is heavily encouraged, as it helps the judges figure out who the entry is. Note that the purpose of this category is not to penalize entries that independently came up with the same idea as another entry, but rather to reward entries that explore underutilized and non-obvious areas of optimization, so, judges, try not to base your judging in this category too heavily on what other builds are doing. Multiple entries using the same element may certainly be evidence that the element is unoriginal, but you shouldn't impose anything like a "-1 for each other build using the same class" penalty.
      • Power: Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
      • Elegance: This category was formerly titled "Build Stability." Here, we're essentially measuring how skillfully you put your build together and how you balanced flavor with power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing (meaning any multiclassing that results in an xp penalty), and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, may lose you points. Rule adherence and legality of sources is scored under this category; additionally, reliance on a questionable, controversial, or ambiguous ruling can and should result in a deduction. Neither the number of sources nor their relative obscurity should be penalized--contestants should feel free to use any books they like. Dipping should not be penalized unless it results in a multiclass xp penalty; if the system won't penalize it, neither should judges.
      • Use of Components: Was the Forbidden Component avoided? Were the Necessary Components showcased, or simply used because they were necessary?
    • Disputes: Any scoring disputes will be posted by the Chairman in-thread after reviewing them privately. Valid disputes include RAW misreadings, arithmetic errors, things missed that are present in the entry, and inconsistently applied criteria. Invalid disputes include disagreements on matters of opinion, a judge not catching something not explicitly presented in the entry, and the like. Invalid disputes will be responded to via PM by the Chair, but valid disputes should be responded to by each individual judge. Judges are obligated to respond to disputes to ensure that everyone gets a fair shake. A judge's scores will only be recognized if they have recognized all disputes. In the absence of any other judges, the entries will be judged by the chairman.


    Completion Time:
    • Contestants will have until 23:59 PM GMT Sunday December 10th to create their builds and PM them to the chairman.
    • Builds will then be posted simultaneously to avoid copying.
    • Judges will have until 23:59 PM GMT Sunday December 31st to judge the builds and submit their scores. Judging deadline is subject to extension as required.
    • As the precedent has been set from Episode 2, should all prospective judges have posted their rulings in a neat, timely fashion and all disputes have been settled satisfactorily (to either judges, contestants, or the Chairperson), the judging period may end prematurely to give way to a new episode. No reason to keep working on a finished building and avoid moving onto the next one.


    So who wants to sign up as a contestant and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing! We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build that doesn't gain a medal. Contestants are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM. Everyone else can vote in-thread. Ready? Steady? Get to the junkyard and start building!

    Previous Competitions:
    1. Junkyard Wars in the Playground I: Shadowdancer + Sneak Attack - Rogue
    2. Junkyard Wars in the Playground II: Healing Spells + Ruby Knight Vindicator - Cleric
    3. Junkyard Wars in the Playground III: Dragons + Theurges - Kobolds
    4. Junkyard Wars in the Playground IV: BoED + Undead Type - Completes
    5. Junkyard Wars in the Playground V: Dread Witch + Reaping Mauler - Fighter
    6. Junkyard Wars in the Playground VI: Wonderworker + Profession Skill - Factotum
    7. Junkyard Wars in the Playground VII: Metamagic Feats + LA - Metamagic Reducers!
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    -reserved-




    If I've made any errors in the OP, please let me know (politely or via PM would be nice), and I'll correct as required.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    hmmm. maybe :)
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    I'm intrigued, but I prefer making build skeletons (with feat allocations) to fully fleshed out builds.

    I might participate, I might not. It depends on how much free time I'll have.
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    Question: Does the Combat Trapsmith's ability to make traps provoke an AoO before, during, or after the trap is completed. It's important to know for my build.
    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Tiefling View Post
    Is this a good OJEBUWIP WHAT IN THE NINE ABYSSES, or a bad OJFBUEWIP WHAT IN THE NINE ABYSSES?
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    "No" means "yes".
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    Question: Does the Combat Trapsmith's ability to make traps provoke an AoO before, during, or after the trap is completed. It's important to know for my build.
    AFB at the moment, I should have an answer for you in the next 4 hours or so...

    In the meantime, maybe this quote from the SRD helps?

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD: Actions In Combat
    Use Skill
    Most skill uses are standard actions, but some might be move actions, full-round actions, free actions, or something else entirely.

    The individual skill descriptions tell you what sorts of actions are required to perform skills.
    The SRD says that skills that require one action or one round "usually" provoke an AoO.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD: Attacks Of Opportunity
    Performing a Distracting Act
    Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

    Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule.

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    Exclamation Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    OK, assuming I'm understanding the query correctly, and looking at the sourcebooks, it says this:

    Quote Originally Posted by CS p.34
    Crafting a combat trap requires a full-round action (which provokes attacks of opportunity) and a Craft (trapmaking) check.
    Quote Originally Posted by CS p.35
    Expert Trapsetter (Ex): At 5th level, you can set a combat trap as a standard action without provoking attacks of opportunity.
    Rules Compendium says this:

    Quote Originally Posted by RC p.19
    An attack of opportunity interrupts the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is taken, immediately resolve that attack of opportunity, then continue with whatever was happening when the attack of opportunity was provoked.
    ...my reading is that crafting a Combat Trap provokes an AoO at the start of your full round action. You no longer provoke AoO by crafting combat traps at 5th level of Combat Trapsmith.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    Tentatively in... (mainly a question of allocating time since I've recently got a new job)

    Question time

    Combat Trapsmith explicitly says that it's Trap Sense doesn't stack
    Trapsmith explicitly says that it stacks with any type of Trap Sense

    how to handle?

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    I'd like to think I might get credit for suggesting this particular combo, but I suspect I am not the first to suggest it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    I'm intrigued, but I prefer making build skeletons (with feat allocations) to fully fleshed out builds.
    The chairperson may need to weigh in on this, but using the table format provided I believe is just a *suggestion* rather than an actual rule. The earlier Iron Chefs had a much looser idea of "format" (which led to the tables). We have had entries submitted recently that do not use the tables provided. How exactly this affects your score is largely up to the judges. Some judges may assess an Elegance penalty if your formatting confuses or frustrates them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    Combat Trapsmith explicitly says that it's Trap Sense doesn't stack
    Trapsmith explicitly says that it stacks with any type of Trap Sense
    Huh. I'm tempted to say it depends on which one you get first. To me it reads... if you take Combat Trapsmith first, and then take Trapsmith, the Trapsmith's Trap Sense stacks with Combat Trapsmith's because Trapsmith says it stacks. If you took Combat Trapsmith second, it wouldn't stack because you already had Trap Sense.

    However... you might have Trap Sense from three sources, such as a base class before entry, and then Combat Trapsmith's Trap Sense might exceed the base class. In which case, if you did base first, Combat Trapsmith 5 next, and then Trapsmith 5, the Trapsmith Trap Sense could stack with either the base class or Combat Trapsmith's Trap Sense, whichever is higher. So... I'm not sure I see any way to get higher than a Trap Sense +3 on a base class, so it looks like the highest Trap Sense you can have is +6: Combat Trapsmith 5/Trapsmith 5, in that order (more or less).

    At any rate... I'm utterly befuddled why the designer thought that stacking Trap Sense would be so problematic that they'd put that restriction into the Combat Trapsmith ability.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    I think I'm in to build this round. I didn't have the time or resources for the last IC or VC. I should be able to make this one.
    The beatings will continue until morale improves!

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    OK, assuming I'm understanding the query correctly, and looking at the sourcebooks, it says this:




    Rules Compendium says this:



    ...my reading is that crafting a Combat Trap provokes an AoO at the start of your full round action. You no longer provoke AoO by crafting combat traps at 5th level of Combat Trapsmith.
    Aw, no stacking of AaO feats to make a trap, provoke an AoO, step back (using that one feat that lets you take a 5' step as part of an AoO), and throw my opponent into the trap for me.

    Does that count as speculation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by daremetoidareyo View Post
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    Exclamation Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    I'd like to think I might get credit for suggesting this particular combo, but I suspect I am not the first to suggest it.
    In this case, you can take the credit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    The chairperson may need to weigh in on this, but using the table format provided I believe is just a *suggestion* rather than an actual rule.
    Correct - so long as the presented entry is legible, the table is a suggestion rather than a hard and fast rule. Be aware that entries that are difficult to read may attract judging penalties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Huh. I'm tempted to say it depends on which one you get first. To me it reads... if you take Combat Trapsmith first, and then take Trapsmith, the Trapsmith's Trap Sense stacks with Combat Trapsmith's because Trapsmith says it stacks. If you took Combat Trapsmith second, it wouldn't stack because you already had Trap Sense.

    However... you might have Trap Sense from three sources, such as a base class before entry, and then Combat Trapsmith's Trap Sense might exceed the base class. In which case, if you did base first, Combat Trapsmith 5 next, and then Trapsmith 5, the Trapsmith Trap Sense could stack with either the base class or Combat Trapsmith's Trap Sense, whichever is higher. So... I'm not sure I see any way to get higher than a Trap Sense +3 on a base class, so it looks like the highest Trap Sense you can have is +6: Combat Trapsmith 5/Trapsmith 5, in that order (more or less).

    At any rate... I'm utterly befuddled why the designer thought that stacking Trap Sense would be so problematic that they'd put that restriction into the Combat Trapsmith ability.
    For the purposes of this comp, I'm happy for entrants to apply the limits/stacking in the order most advantageous for their entry.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATHATH View Post
    Aw, no stacking of AaO feats to make a trap, provoke an AoO, step back (using that one feat that lets you take a 5' step as part of an AoO), and throw my opponent into the trap for me.

    Does that count as speculation?
    Probably not, but maybe better to avoid it just in case.

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    Thumbs up Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    While awaiting the current Iron Chef and Villainous Competition rounds to be finalized (and new rounds to be posted), why not consider getting an entry in here?

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    While awaiting the current Iron Chef and Villainous Competition rounds to be finalized (and new rounds to be posted), why not consider getting an entry in here?
    I'm still fiddling around with a few ideas... there's a somewhat obvious "Vizzini Bait" build that I may throw together just to make sure *someone* submits it.

    There's also my Skill Focus: Procrastination, which of course couldn't possibly have an effect on my Flaw: Poor Time Management.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    I could aid another via my skill: Multi-tasking and the massive bonus i get from Flaw: Obsessive Compulsive Character Creation Disorder. that should be enough to tip you over the scales...
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    Exclamation Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    As per PM request, I'm extending the deadline.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    I'd really want to join, simply to support the variant, but I'm sadly doubtful if I have the time needed to finish off even in an extra week

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    I also want to be able to enter. Hopefully I can find the time.

    But I'm also very rusty at these . . .

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    I'll judge. I love both these classes

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    smile Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    are we there yet?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    I am still fiddling around with an entry, but I would need a couple more days.

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    Exclamation Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    I am still fiddling around with an entry, but I would need a couple more days.
    In the interests of the comp, I'm willing to extend the deadline. There have been a very small amount of entries, so an extra one would be good.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    Never got the time to actually cook, but will follow with interest and share my idea

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    Exclamation Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    Sorry for the delays: I know we're well past the deadline, but in the interests of being a viable competition, I'm awaiting an additional entry.

    Your patience is much appreciated.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    Wow, I completely missed this. No time to still scrap something together, but do ping me when you start the next one, will you?
    Last edited by weckar; 2017-11-30 at 03:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    I'll definitely join later rounds: in this one I simply lacked the time and inspiration.
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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Wow, I completely missed this. No time to still scrap something together, but do ping me when you start the next one, will you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    I'll definitely join later rounds: in this one I simply lacked the time and inspiration.
    I've definitely got an idea in mind for the next round.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    Ok, I managed to put something together and get it submitted. But I wouldn't be opposed to waiting a little longer, if there's another straggler out there.

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    got an idea that I'm certainly going to post, but it's so far away that I won't be able to make it in time, specially not since IC is more likely to eat my time if i have any, since I have a even more interesting idea there :S

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    Default Re: Junkyard Wars XVI: Trapsmith + Combat Trapsmith - Rogue

    Without any further delay, here is the reveal:

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