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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    Quote Originally Posted by someonenoone11 View Post
    I don't understand what is the point you are trying to make. Making a 83hd adamantine golem from scratch costs exactly the same as a 54hd adamantine golem that has been upgraded to 83hd.
    I pointed a problem: upgrading a Golem required great amount of rare and expensive material; thus either your pricing doesnt work for Golems, or you somehow getting free adamantine in bulk
    When you make it from scratch, Golem's body is made from iron and transmuted into adamantine
    If you would be able to produce almost 22,5 millions of gp with a single cast of spell, then you will win the D&D

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Hit Dice are not "new magical abilities."
    Quote Originally Posted by someonenoone11 View Post
    Note: The market price of an advanced golem (a golem with more Hit Dice than the typical golem described in each entry) is increased by 5,000 gp for each additional Hit Die, and increased by an additional 50,000 gp if the golemís size increases. The XP cost for creating an advanced golem is equal to 1/25 the advanced golemís market price minus the cost of the special materials required.
    The rules state what advancing hit dice costs. So it doesn't matter if they aren't "new magical abilities".
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    I'm imagining what would happen if I tried to add an HD to my Circlet of Persuasion... hey! I know, add an HD to a Sizing weapon, activate it, and have it immediately appreciate 50,000gp in value! Seems totally legit.

  4. - Top - End - #34

    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    I'm imagining what would happen if I tried to add an HD to my Circlet of Persuasion... hey! I know, add an HD to a Sizing weapon, activate it, and have it immediately appreciate 50,000gp in value! Seems totally legit.
    That's like saying you can add vorpal to your circlet of persuasion.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    This thread is absolutely bizarre.

    How is buying a 30hd golem different from buying a 15hd golem and upgrading it to 30hd later? Both cost exactly the same yet some people here think it's absolutely broken and shouldn't be allowed.

    We have someone saying improving magical items is not giving it new magical abilities so it's illegal and since none of the non-creature magic items have any hd, hd is not a unique magical trait of constructs.

    I MEAN SERIOUSLY, IF HD IS NOT A MAGICAL TRAIT THEN HOW THE HELL ARE WE ABLE TO CREATE A CONSTRUCT IN THE FIRST PLACE? If everything we added to a mundane longsword is magical, then everything we add to a lump of clay so that it comes alive is magical and is a magical ability, hd included.

    Then we have someone saying an upgraded adamantine golem is cheaper than buying an adamantine golem of the same hd and saying it's an exploit which is why constructs should not be upgraded, and then we have someone making sarcastic remarks completely ignoring magic item classification just to belittle the OP's point.

    Yes, the rules don't spell it out, and yes a DM hell bent against this is gonna stop it, but I think that the OP proved that without any doubt that any DM who plays strictly by RAW should allow this because it's completely permittable within the written rules, it doesn't do anything to break the game (in fact it enables new playstyles), and the naysayers of this thread doesn't even read the quotes the OP quoted before saying anything.

    I mean seriously, we have people saying because a magical trait is not listed in the magical weapons trait table it's not a magical ability. Then how do wondrous items exist? And again, how can constructs exist in the first place and be considered a magical item if hd isn't a magical property? If you can't improve hd, then you can't add hd, and if you can't add hd then you can't make a construct. Clay golem - lump of clay = magical properties/qualities/traits of that magic item called the clay golem, all of which can be improved.

    I think this discussion is finished.
    Last edited by magicalmagicman; 2017-11-02 at 08:28 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36

    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    I think that's a good observation.

    +2 Longsword - Masterwork Longsword = +2 magic enhancement which can be improved.
    Clay Golem - Lump of Clay and enchantment oils = magical stuff which can be improved like HD since every stat on the creature is tied to their hd.

    When you're upgrading a +1 longsword to a +2 longsword, you're just actually stacking two +1 enchantments, so there is no reason you can't add 1 more hd to the creature. This all fits perfectly in magic item creation rules. So it's not even "improving" its adding new magic.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    Quote Originally Posted by EldritchWeaver View Post
    The rules state what advancing hit dice costs. So it doesn't matter if they aren't "new magical abilities".
    It states that for golems, yes. The thread is about constructs in general, is it not?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  8. - Top - End - #38

    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    It states that for golems, yes. The thread is about constructs in general, is it not?
    Hah! So you at least concede that Golems are upgrade-able yes?

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    Quote Originally Posted by someonenoone11 View Post
    That's like saying you can add vorpal to your circlet of persuasion.
    Why can't it? It's a magical improvement, right?

  10. - Top - End - #40

    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Why can't it? It's a magical improvement, right?
    Alright. You're intentionally being ******ed. I had a good deal of respect for you but I guess that's out the window now. I'm all for using sarcasm to make a point but this way too ******ed.

    I mean for the entire thread I've been saying each class of magic items has there own unique properties and you have to make your own list for each of them because none is given except for armor and weapons, and here you are ignoring all that just to be sarcastic and ******ed.

    I disagree with Psyren but he gave his reasons and I understand them and I respect them despite disagreeing with them but... w.e
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2017-11-02 at 10:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    Quote Originally Posted by someonenoone11 View Post
    Hah! So you at least concede that Golems are upgrade-able yes?
    I never said they weren't?

    I said there are guidelines to follow when doing so, not that it was impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    There is precedent.
    In neverwinter nights, there's a golem in one of the premium modules who recieves upgrades from a gnomish inventer. There is also raw ways to improve golems via equipment.
    Also, if you can build or repair a construct, I see no reason you have to stick with repair and can't improve. Increasing AC, adding layers to increase hp or adding new materials to increase dr...
    Also, there is templates to consider. You could, for example, try to create an advanced golem. You could simply increase its size category. There's no reason you can't build a draconic flesh golem.
    It requires some work and gm approval, but with gm approval you can also create a half dragon, half celestial, half fiend, half golem iron golem ghost... so eh?

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    Cost and game balance wise, it seems fine - and in keeping with the 3.x mindset - to upgrade for the price difference if there is an established cost. And, if there is not a cost, that's a bug - how are you supposed to build one of there is no cost?

    However, from a fluff perspective, what if the original elemental spirit is not powerful enough, and you need to summon a whole new spirit to animate the new, larger body?

    So, while I am personally fine with it in general, I may reject it on certain custom worlds where I know that the underlying magical principles won't support such a simple transition.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    I pointed a problem: upgrading a Golem required great amount of rare and expensive material; thus either your pricing doesnt work for Golems, or you somehow getting free adamantine in bulk
    When you make it from scratch, Golem's body is made from iron and transmuted into adamantine
    If you would be able to produce almost 22,5 millions of gp with a single cast of spell, then you will win the D&D
    Keep in mind that you can create the golem while cloth for that price, no upgrading required.

    Also, keep in mind that different "grades" of adamantium have different values - look at the cost of ship-grade adamantium plating, for example. Why, you could get rich just buying adamantium armor for your ship, and selling it back! Yeah, no.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    What some people seem to be forgetting, is that the OP wants to improve a Construct as their Player Character levels. They are seeking a RAW way to do it, not a way that could be reasonablly allowed.

    The OP wants to improve their Construct by increasing Hit Dice and treating it like improving a magical item.
    I know of no RAW way to do this.

    The way they are trying to justify it is by, repeatively, claiming that 'nothing says they can't'. The OP has yet to find a source that supports them adding HD to a Construct using magic item improvement rules/guidelines.

    The closest they have found, however, concerns Golems only.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Creating a golem is essentially similar to creating any sort of magic item.
    The OP is using this as their new basis to justify their actions.
    Look at the bolded part. "Similar" to creating magic items. Not the same as creating magic items.

    It's certainly reasonable to allow HD improvements. Doing so in this manner is not RAW for a PC.
    Best case scenario, they are limited to Golems, which the OP at least admits to. But how do you improve its HD by RAW?

    Spoiler: Personal opinion
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    It seems to me that the OP is purposefully ignoring and deflecting everything that doesn't support their position. Attacking other posters, ignoring valid points and questions, claiming they mean things that were never said... I believe they just want validation when they know it doesn't really work.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Also, keep in mind that different "grades" of adamantium have different values - look at the cost of ship-grade adamantium plating, for example.
    Where's it?

  16. - Top - End - #46

    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    Quote Originally Posted by PrismCat21 View Post
    The OP is using this as their new basis to justify their actions.
    Look at the bolded part. "Similar" to creating magic items. Not the same as creating magic items.

    It's certainly reasonable to allow HD improvements. Doing so in this manner is not RAW for a PC.
    Best case scenario, they are limited to Golems, which the OP at least admits to. But how do you improve its HD by RAW?

    Spoiler: Personal opinion
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    It seems to me that the OP is purposefully ignoring and deflecting everything that doesn't support their position. Attacking other posters, ignoring valid points and questions, claiming they mean things that were never said... I believe they just want validation when they know it doesn't really work.
    You are incorrect. I don't understand why people won't read the bolded parts of my quotes. Seriously how hard is it to read the bolded parts of a quote? This is like the tenth time I am repeating myself, and my last.

    Quote Originally Posted by d20srd
    The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item (caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, market price, cost to create) are given in summary form at the end of each golemís description.
    Golems are not "similar" to magic items. They are magic items, it's right there, underlined, again, and Psyren changed his arguments afterwards regarding this issue after I quoted this yet you are quoting his outdated argument. So my theory is you just skimmed over Psyren's posts, just the first few and ignored the rest of the thread for reasons unknown.

    Secondly

    Quote Originally Posted by d20srd
    Adding New Abilities

    A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword.

    If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a characterís body the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
    So this quote clearly shows that you can improve existing magic items, and since golems are magic items you can improve them.

    Now what Psyren and I are disagreeing is whether HD is a "new magical ability" for constructs and whether it is improvable. I gave the argument saying that each class of magic item has their own lists and you create the lists based on existing magic items for that class and for constructs hd is on that list, but as EldritchWeaver said

    Quote Originally Posted by EldritchWeaver View Post
    The rules state what advancing hit dice costs. So it doesn't matter if they aren't "new magical abilities".
    meaning I don't even need to argue whether hd is a "new magical ability" for golems as they were my main goal. I have less interest in other constructs.

    As I said before this is only a sure thing for golems and not all constructs and I misunderstood Psyren's language and thought he was talking about golems, not non-golem constructs. If you bothered to read the thread you'd notice I stopped arguing with him when it no longer concerned golems and after he stopped disputing whether golems' hd can be advanced or not (or when I finally understood he stopped talking about golems). I'm repeating to be clear, I have little interest in whether other constructs can advance in hd or not by RAW so I stopped arguing whether hd is a magical ability or not for the class of magical items known as golems when Psyren said he wasn't talking about golems but other mindless constructs because Psyren was the only one who claimed it wasn't and wasn't making incorrect sarcastic quips that clearly showed he did not read more than 1/3 of the thread.

    How am I "ignoring and deflecting everything" when the biggest naysayer agreed with EldritchWeaver that you can upgrade a golem's hd? Which is literally the only thing I've been arguing this entire thread. How am I "ignoring and deflecting everything" when the naysayer agreed with me? In fact I don't think Psyren was even a naysayer seeing how he was talking about nongolems the whole time.

    The only person I "attacked" (if you can even call it that) in this thread is mr.sarcastic who hasn't bothered to read the thread or the TWO points I've been repeating ten times, just like you. I guess you're gonna call this me attacking you too for pointing this out? I've been saying each class of magic item has its own list of magical abilities, so how is sarcastically cross classing vorpal to a circlet of persuasion even remotely relevant to the argument at hand? It shows he doesn't even know what we are debating about and engages in troll like behavior acting condescendingly and contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion, but I guess someone who didn't read the thread would think his quips are actually relevant and good because he/she also has absolutely no idea what we are debating about and anyone who gets angry at that is "ignoring and deflecting everything" >.>

    Whatever I'm done with this thread. Only a few people here read the thread and made actual contributions to the discussion and I got what I wanted from the naysayers too. I mean seriously, how hard is it to read the bolded underlined parts of quotes that have been re-quoted again and again through out this 2 page thread? I've been repeating these TWO quotes over and over as my basis, and you claim that my basis is only one? And on an outdated quote? Which is actually right above the real quote I was using in the same section meaning you haven't even bothered to read anything other than Psyren's quotes?

    This came out a little more hostile than i intended so I apologize for that. Writing is not one of my best skills, but my point is valid. If you don't take the effort to read even a 1/3 of the thread you really shouldn't be commenting because otherwise what you post is incorrect and confuses or hinders other people's ability to add to the discussion.

    Also i have not once made the claim "It doesn't say I can't so I can". Not once. Those who claim i did vastly misunderstood my arguments, just like you have, and I have been lacking in motivation to correct them seeing how my previous attempts to clarify resulted in no success. This is a good example of how it happens, the claimer did not read any of my posts I have been repeating over and over, did not read the same bolded and underlined quotes that have been repeated throughout this thread over and over again, and spouts an opinion. Seeing how these people don't read I highly doubt further repetitions will help them understand my point of view.

    edit: Rules say I can improve magic items, and they also say golems are magic items, but they do NOT say how you can improve golems. So being creatures I believed golems can improve in hd. How the **** is this argument "It doesn't say I can't so I can?" No the argument is "It says I can improve but it doesn't say what I can improve so I think we need to use logic to figure out what I can improve"

    Anyways I am done with this thread. i will not be responding to it unless someone points out something huge that either destroys my arguments or proves my arguments. My time is too precious to spend on repeating the same thing over and over again to people who don't read.
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2017-11-03 at 08:16 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    Quote Originally Posted by someonenoone11 View Post
    You are incorrect. I don't understand why people won't read the bolded parts of my quotes. Seriously how hard is it to read the bolded parts of a quote? This is like the tenth time I am repeating myself, and my last.
    You exaggerate. You only posted your quote 3 times including your last post, and one of them wasn't even bolded.

    Quote Originally Posted by someonenoone11 View Post
    If you don't take the effort to read even a 1/3 of the thread you really shouldn't be commenting because otherwise what you post is incorrect and confuses or hinders other people's ability to add to the discussion.
    Lets see...

    Quote Originally Posted by PrismCat21 View Post
    What some people seem to be forgetting, is that the OP wants to improve a Construct as their Player Character levels. They are seeking a RAW way to do it, not a way that could be reasonablly allowed.

    The OP wants to improve their Construct by increasing Hit Dice and treating it like improving a magical item.
    I know of no RAW way to do this.

    The way they are trying to justify it is by, repeatively, claiming that 'nothing says they can't'. The OP has yet to find a source that supports them adding HD to a Construct using magic item improvement rules/guidelines.

    The closest they have found, however, concerns Golems only.

    The OP is using this as their new basis to justify their actions.
    Look at the bolded part. "Similar" to creating magic items. Not the same as creating magic items.

    It's certainly reasonable to allow HD improvements. Doing so in this manner is not RAW for a PC.
    Best case scenario, they are limited to Golems, which the OP at least admits to. But how do you improve its HD by RAW?

    Spoiler: Personal opinion
    Show
    It seems to me that the OP is purposefully ignoring and deflecting everything that doesn't support their position. Attacking other posters, ignoring valid points and questions, claiming they mean things that were never said... I believe they just want validation when they know it doesn't really work.
    Ok so, you are post #44, which means there are 43 posts before yours.

    Post #13 is when the OP started using the quote where it directly says golems are magic items. Not similar.

    Post #17 is when Psyren started the argument that HD is not a magical ability, and that pretty much was the entire thread from then on, whether hd is a magical ability for constructs and therefore improvable or not.

    Seeing how PrismCat21's post didn't include the quote you guys were using from post #13-43, or the hd argument, he read... 12/43 = 27.9% of the thread, which is less than 1/3 so I guess you're right about him not reading even 1/3 of the thread. But arguably, seeing how it's post #7 where Psyren made the "similar is not identical" argument, one could argue he only read up to post #7 in which case he read 6/43 = 14% of the thread.

    But looking at post #23's "The rules don't say I can't" quote from Psyren, I guess he selectively read a few posts here and there.

    Quote Originally Posted by someonenoone11 View Post
    making incorrect sarcastic quips that clearly showed he did not read more than 1/3 of the thread.
    Post #24 is when you start talking about magical item class... so i guess Telonius read 23/43 = 53.5% of the thread before throwing "sarcastic quips" so you're wrong here.

    I don't know why I'm doing this. I'm a bit drunk right now.

    My 2 cents on the subject matter, I think the OP proved without a doubt that Golems can be improved after they are built by RAW, but not other constructs. Every construct is different so it is foolish to assume they are the same and golems. Whether or not hd is a "magical ability" does not matter since only Golems are magic items, not other constructs, and as EldritchWeaver pointed out a golem's hd advancement price is spelled out so they are improvable pure and simple. Other constructs on the other hand are creatures not magic items so this discussion is meaningless to them.

    As for the Adamantine Golem increasing in value way more than its +50,000gp size increase cost, note that golems aren't solid, they're usually hollow, at least the metal ones, so I think the math you did is wrong. And there aren't any rules for the difference between a hollow adamantine golem or a solid adamantine golem. I think WotC just hand waved all that away just like how they hand waved away all the magic item creation materials.

    My criticism for the someonenoone11 is to be a bit more clear that you were talking about golems and not constructs in general. I think that's what caused the confusion in this thread. Make the thread title about golems or something.

    My criticism for Telonius is to at least read all the arguments at hand before utilizing sarcasm because I do agree with the OP that your "sarcastic quips" were wrong. someonenoone11 was arguing just like how vorpal is weapon exclusive, hd is golem exclusive, and you saying adding hd or vorpal to a wondrous item... I don't even know what you were trying to say. Hd on a wondrous item is ludicrous? Yeah it is but that's not what they were discussing.

    My criticism for PrismCat21 is to read the thread before you start hurling insults at other people. I think in your selective reading you mixed up magicalmagicman's post as the someonenoone11, though I guess you did rouse someonenoone11 to be more clear, but saying the "outdated quote" as the OP's basis is just hilarious especially since 6 posts down was the quote that said golems were magic items, not similar to.

    Iunno why I'm giving out criticisms. I'm a bit drunk right now and this **** is hilarious. "validation when they know it doesn't really work" without knowing what they were talking about. Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Can mindless constructs advance in hd?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    My criticism for the someonenoone11 is to be a bit more clear that you were talking about golems and not constructs in general. I think that's what caused the confusion in this thread. Make the thread title about golems or something.
    This is probably my main point.

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    I think I'll sig this.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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