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  1. - Top - End - #571
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    Lord Tataraus's Avatar

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Disclaimer to X: While I agree Katara picked up the ability very fast, I think Hama would be much more capable of a bloodbender by spending so many years in practice. Thus, we don't know if Katara could control more than 1 creature at a time or do so as easily as Hama did. Also, I'd focus more on self buffs for the bloodbender. It did seem that Hama used bloodbending to buff herself up a bit in the scene where she first brings Katara into the woods. While Hama didn't use her ability, I would say that a bloodbender can increase strength and constitution by bending her own blood anytime. To bend another's blood requires the full moon.

    Now onto my promised analysis:
    Disclaimer to Ceiling - I'm not too great at PrCs, my specialty lies more in races, settings and base classes, but I give it a shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceiling009 View Post
    Requirements
    Skills: Waterbending 12 Ranks, Heal 9
    Other: Must Know Puppet Seed and can Waterbend
    The part about "must be able to Waterbend" is redundant with knowing the puppet seed. 12 ranks requires this to be taken at level 10 or higher, I'd actually drop it to be taken at level 8 or higher, so Waterbending 9 ranks (same as Heal). Also, if you use my feats, I'd suggest using Water From Life as a prerequisite.

    Puppet Mastery
    With a deeper dedication and understanding to the principles of Bloodbending, the Bloodbender may add a +2 competence bonus per level of Bloodbender to the use of the Puppet Seed.
    Sounds good.

    Deep Manipulation
    Water can be found almost anywhere, not always in handy lakes, ponds, ice, or puddles; a Bloodbender understands this fact, and can use the manipulate seed to pull water out of the air, and by adding a +15 to the manipulate check to pull water out of plants, instantly desiccating and killing them.
    I think the feats are better since this ability should not be limited to Bloodbenders. However, if you add my suggestion of the feat Water From Life prerequisite, this could make it easier to use.

    Pulling Strings
    Once a Bloodbender has someone(s) under their control with the puppet seed, they may make a concentration check equal to half the Bending check to impart either a Dexterity bonus of +4 or a Strength bonus of +4 equal to a number of rounds of levels of Bloodbender.
    I would agree with self buffs, but not buffing others. You can have very fine control of yourself, but not others. Also, this bloodbending is an "evil" ability in most cases, so someone taking this class is probably evil and wouldn't care about boosting others' abilities.

    Greater Puppet Mastery
    A Bloodbender is no longer restricted to one target when using the puppet seed, they may affect multiple targets simultaneously. The number of targets affected now is totaled by Hit Die, the maximum of which is the Bloodbender’s Hit Die +4, so a level 12 Waterbender/Bloodbender can affect a number of creatures equaling to 16 Hit Die with their Puppet Seed.
    I definitely agree with this.

    Where there is Life, there is Water
    Subjects under the puppet seed maybe moved around as with Telekinesis, the bloodbender must make an appropriate concentration check to move her puppets as projectiles; treating each medium sized creature as a 5 foot cube of water. The concentration check is treated as a manipulation check.
    Lol! Most definitely a great ability for the Bloodbender.

    True Puppet Mastery
    At this stage, a Bloodbender is becoming a true master of puppets, now able to affect a total of number of creature Hit Dice of twice their Hit Die +4.
    Very nice.

    Onto the seeds:
    Dessication
    DC 30
    The Bloodbender is already a master of finding and pulling water from any source, thus they may pull water out of living creatures. They may pull blood out of their opponents, dealing 1 point of ability damage to any ability they choose as a full round action. The target must make a Fortitude Save which is 10 + half levels of waterbender and bloodbender + Wisdom mod, or suffer the ability damage; on a successful save, they negate the ability damage. For every 5 points that you make the DC by, the save DC goes up +1.
    Emphasis mine. Do they actually get water from this? I would agree with ability damage, but not actual pulling the blood out of the body, just pulling it away from a vital area.

    Body of Water
    *snip*
    Sounds good.

    Mind of Mist
    *snip*
    Funny name, seed's good.

    Shutdown
    *snip*
    Sounds good.


    So, synopsis: I'd like to see a little more self buff and use feats maybe boosted by a class feature to draw water out of the air and life to use. Otherwise, I like it.

  2. - Top - End - #572
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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph View Post
    Very true. Then again, when have we ever seen a bender from the show wearing a shield? When have we seen anyone from the show wearing a shield?
    Not to be devil's advocate, but when have we ever seen cyborgs that shoot mind bullets of fire using a third eye before season 3?

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dairun Cates View Post
    Not to be devil's advocate, but when have we ever seen cyborgs that shoot mind bullets of fire using a third eye before season 3?

    Inspiring quote indeed. However, there have been shields at least once in the show. (See Appa's Lost Days.)

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    A note on the enhanced items, based off the lightweight battle #2 (despite a little bit of a set back) we definitely need to limit DR base off the base DR of the armor. So, I'll put that in.

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Now that I've finally found a place where I can watch all of the aired episodes while keeping my conscience clear (and the subsequent watching of the first half of book 3), I can speak from experience in this regard. Judging from Hama's description of her skill, it seems to me more of a seed than a prestige class. I really hate to basically void all the work you put in on that class, but I don't think it fits in with the way it's represented in the show. A couple of things that I did learn: the Puppet seed's DC needs to be upped to around 50 (Katara, who we've debated as being an epic level bender, needs the full moon to use it), and it needs a clause for multiple targets. I'm debating whether the water from life thing should be a sub-use or a feat (I'm leaning towards the latter: it seems synergistic with, but independent of Hama's bloodbending). If we do decide to make it a feat, I'd say that it we would have to define how much water can be drawn out of a particular size of plant or area of turf.

    The problem I'm seeing is that it's definitely a bit too good to be a standard seed, but there's not enough canon material for a prestige class. I still hold to keeping it a seed; but one with insanely high checks. What does the project as a whole have to say?
    Last edited by Eighth_Seraph; 2007-11-09 at 09:01 PM.
    Water, Earth, Fire, and Air: Benders of the Avatar world
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    Quote Originally Posted by KKL View Post
    Edition Wars and Nerd Rage destroyed Rome. Ceasar died because he was a crappy DM.
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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Well, I figured I'd post this again (third times the charm):

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tataraus View Post
    Water From Air
    Prerequisites: Waterbending 10 ranks
    Benefit: A Waterbender can bend the water out of the moisture in the air by taking a move action to get one pint of water. Additionally, A Waterbender can increase the DC of any form by +15 to draw out the water in the air to use in the form.
    Normal: A Waterbender must have some water nearby to preform her bending.

    Water From Life
    Prerequisites: Waterbending 10 ranks, Water From Air
    Benefit: A Waterbender can bend the water out of any living thing such as animals or plants by taking a move action to get one pint of water. Drawing water out in this fashion instantly kills any animal of tiny size or smaller and any plant of huge size or smaller. Larger plants and animals take 2d6 constitution drain. An animal may make a fortitude save DC 10 + class level + wisdom modifier to resist the damage and cause the drawing of water to fail. This effects one tiny-sized creature (or two diminutive or four fine creatures) or one medium-sized plant (or two small, four tiny, eight diminutive, or sixteen fine plants) for each pint of water drawn out. Additionally, A Waterbender can increase the DC of any form by +8 to draw out the water in the air to use in the form.
    Normal: A Waterbender must have some water nearby to preform her bending.
    Notice I do state how much water is gained, is it too much or too little?
    Notice that it doesn't outright kill creatures, just plants.

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Water From Air
    Prerequisites:
    Waterbending 10 ranks
    Benefit: A Waterbender can bend the water out of the moisture in the air by taking a move action to get one pint of water. Additionally, A Waterbender can increase the DC of any form by +15 to draw out the water in the air to use in the form.
    Normal: A Waterbender must have some water nearby to preform her bending.
    Looks good. Maybe put in a clause for deserts or other exceptionally dry climates, making it immensely more difficult or downright impossible. Also, don't think making it easier with Water From Life is a particularly good idea, for the particular reason of deserts, etc.

    Water From Life
    Prerequisites:
    Waterbending 10 ranks, Water From Air
    Benefit: A Waterbender can bend the water out of any living thing such as animals or plants by taking a move action to get one pint of water. Drawing water out in this fashion instantly kills any animal of tiny size or smaller and any plant of huge size or smaller. Larger plants and animals take 2d6 constitution drain. An animal may make a fortitude save DC 10 + class level + wisdom modifier to resist the damage and cause the drawing of water to fail. This effects one tiny-sized creature (or two diminutive or four fine creatures) or one medium-sized plant (or two small, four tiny, eight diminutive, or sixteen fine plants) for each pint of water drawn out. Additionally, A Waterbender can increase the DC of any form by +8 to draw out the water in the air to use in the form.
    Normal: A Waterbender must have some water nearby to preform her bending.
    (emphasis mine)
    ...2d6 Constitution drain?! Please recall the one way we have to heal Con drain: a full month of daily healings from a mid-level waterbender that has dedicated at least two levels out of her blast and seed progression to become a specialized healer. I don't think Hama ever drew water from animals on screen, but she did suggest that it's possible ("I saw even the rats as nothing but cells full of water," or something along those lines), so I would make a mechanic to go along with it. However, I don't think constitution drain is the solution. Con damage maybe, but we'd have to make it a difficult form to execute, and not in terms of DC. Plants can't resist being drained, but I would use bloodbending, as Ceiling so adequately put it, as the Disciple of Healing Waters' evil twin. Focus on the target for a round, then rip the water from his body? Good initial strike, torture device, or other evil application. What do you guys think?
    Last edited by Eighth_Seraph; 2007-11-09 at 09:39 PM.
    Water, Earth, Fire, and Air: Benders of the Avatar world
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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    I'm still of the opinion that it's about the same thing with Disciple of Healing Waters, but that's okay.

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Hm...I think I need to update these due to me recently re-watching the episode.

    Water From Air
    Prerequisites: Waterbending 10 ranks
    Benefit: A Waterbender can bend the water out of the moisture in the air by taking a move action to get one pint of water. Additionally, A Waterbender can increase the DC of any form by +15 to draw out the water in the air to use in the form.
    Normal: A Waterbender must have some water nearby to preform her bending.
    Special: When in dry are such as a desert, the Waterbender must make a DC 30 Waterbending check to collect water from the air. Additionally drawing out water in such an area while executing any form increases the DC by +35.
    In an area of high moisture such as a swamp or seacoast, drawing out water in such an area while executing any form increases the DC by +5.

    Water From Life
    Prerequisites: Waterbending 10 ranks, Water From Air
    Benefit: A Waterbender can bend the water out of any living thing such as animals or plants by taking a move action to get one pint of water. Drawing water out in this fashion instantly kills any animal of tiny size or smaller and any plant of large size or smaller. Larger plants and animals take 1d6 constitution damage. An animal may make a fortitude save DC 10 + class level + wisdom modifier to resist the damage and cause the drawing of water to fail. This effects one tiny-sized creature (or two diminutive or four fine creatures) or one medium-sized plant (or two small, four tiny, eight diminutive, or sixteen fine plants) for each pint of water drawn out. Additionally, A Waterbender can increase the DC of any form by +8 to draw out the water in the creatures or plants to use in the form.
    Normal: A Waterbender must have some water nearby to preform her bending.

    By the way, Eighth Seraph, that clause about Water from Life decreasing the difficulty of drawing out water from the air was a copy-paste error, I've fixed that.

  10. - Top - End - #580
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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Yay! More feats for the directory! Updates coming immediately at this post's completion.
    Water, Earth, Fire, and Air: Benders of the Avatar world
    Monks and Rangers for a non-magical world
    Quote Originally Posted by KKL View Post
    Edition Wars and Nerd Rage destroyed Rome. Ceasar died because he was a crappy DM.
    Avatar By the amazing Mephibosheth

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph View Post
    Yay! More feats for the directory! Updates coming immediately at this post's completion.
    You lied, I checked immediately after reading your post and no link

    Also, will my Enhanced Items post get a link?

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Sure, I'll get right on that. I feel like there's alot of material that should be on the directory that isn't. Does anyone know of something offhand that I've missed?
    Water, Earth, Fire, and Air: Benders of the Avatar world
    Monks and Rangers for a non-magical world
    Quote Originally Posted by KKL View Post
    Edition Wars and Nerd Rage destroyed Rome. Ceasar died because he was a crappy DM.
    Avatar By the amazing Mephibosheth

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Just reposting my version of the "draw the water from the air" feat. I'm not sure whether two feats is really necessary when we could fold it into one.

    Deep Manipulation:
    Prerequisites: Waterbending 12 ranks, Manipulate
    Benefit: With a successful DC 20 Waterbending check, you can use the Manipulate ability as a move action to draw water from the air. Enough water can be drawn from the air to use the Water Blast, Water Whip, Ice Shards, Healing Water or Steady Stance seeds. By increasing the DC by 10, you can draw enough water to perform any seed except Wave, Propel, Puppet and Blizzard.

    In addition to drawing water from the air, you can draw it from nearby plant material (but not plant creatures) as well. Doing so requires a DC 20 Waterbending check, and instantly dessicates and kills the plants (though they remain where they are and continue to affect movement and terrain as normal). This ability functions like drawing water from the air, and has the same limitations and options.

    We never determined exactly how much water is required for bending seeds, which is why I outlined what seeds this water can be used for instead of giving a quantity.

    Also, since we're on the topic, in the same post (about a page back) where I analyzed the Bloodbender PrC and posted the above feat, I also posted a feat that enhances the Puppet seed to allow multiple people. This way we have something to represent more focused Bloodbenders that doesn't go quite as far as a PrC. Hama doesn't really seem like she's sacrificed a lot of her normal Waterbender levels to be able to Bloodbend, so maybe a feat tree is the best way to go. I have a few more ideas that I'll think over and perhaps post some more feats.

    Finally, I went through this thread and added all the feats I thought were ready and appropriate to my Avatar d20 site. I'm planning on spending some time in the next few days going through the old thread and this one for more content, so we have it all together in one place where we can easily make changes.

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Eigth Seraph, where are you watching the episodes? (I've missed the last two weeks, and I live in the US, so I'm getting kind of behind.)
    Last edited by Darkbane; 2007-11-09 at 11:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Turbonick's got them up pretty soon after they air- I managed to catch the bloodbender episode tonight.

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Let us all have a moment of silence to remember our unfortunate waterbender, Kahi, who was destroyed by a punishing spear to the chest followed by a firestorm from a ruthless firebender. May Kahi rest in peace.

    *extended silence*

    With that said, one of two things needs to happen, scale blast damage way back or increase hp by a lot. That was just too cruel. The firestorm alone would have killed the waterbender and I think I'd limit feats a lot so because no one could survive long after a battle jumping, leap attack.

    Comments?

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    ( I only hope that when I fight, I win initiative......)

    About Blast Damage/HP:
    Actually, looking at Frigs' damage rolls, they were all above average for 7d6 damage... *ka-calculate!* ...and four 7d6 fire blasts with average damage (24.5) is 98 damage.

    About Bloodbending:
    Bloodbending is an incredibly powerful art; you will probably never be held captive again. When you learn to draw water out of the bodies of small animals, let alone the air, no cell can hold you. Even in a dehumidified prison, life will persevere, it will find a way. No compound can be completely life-proof; rats and cockroaches will find a way in. They always do. And the only thing preventing a bloodbender from drawing water from them and using it to escape is having all their limbs tied down. (Of course, this would screw you over anyways, but it might be impractical 24/7.) Not even the extreme security measures evidenced in the Fire Nation prison where Hama was kept would prevent one from escaping, as you could bend water out of the native vermin and carve your way out of your cell and through the typically inept guards.

    (That paragraph in a nutshell: Bloodbending & those feats are, like, über.)

    [hr]

    Now, other comments/critiques/nitpicks:

    Nearly all of the Firebending seeds are worded so that overbending is impossible. They allow you to boost the power of your attack, but only if your bending check beats the DC by a certain amount, in contrast with the waterbenders and earthbenders.
    Last edited by Xiagu; 2007-11-10 at 09:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Speaking as the guy who fred Khai, I think it's only slghtly out of balance. Becuase If I hadn't gone first, he prolly would have froze both me and my partner in a giant freezing wave. So yeah....

    Besides, All firebenders can really do is shoot fire, with a little varation, while water,earth, and air benders get crazazy awesome stuff, like catapult and tornadoe.
    Not forgetting Yldenfrei and the wonderful avatar she made.

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Exactly. Firebenders have awesome combat prowess, but can't do much else except make a campfire while it's raining and heat their tea. Airbenders are the opposite; they can fly, they can jump 30 feet, they can run up walls... ...but in combat, they have very few ways to actually inflict damage.

    Speaking of those "mini freezing tsunamis of doom", any good waterbender should be able to make one of those by level 11 or 12. Getting smashed with one of those while flat-footed would stink, even though they don't do any damage.

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    I will admit I was taken aback when my Waterbender died so quickly. But after looking at the match again, the situation wasn't nearly as dire as I thought, and it was really the Leap Attack/Battle Jump cheese that killed me. Khai's AC was high enough to avoid a few of Frigs' Fire Blasts and his armor's fire resistance would have prevented him from dying outright from the Fire Blasts. I agree with Frigs on this one. There might be some Firebending seeds that need to be toned down, but overall the damage isn't overwhelming. And Frigs is right. Had my Waterbender survived, he could just as easily have ended the combat in a single turn as well.

    That said, I wouldn't oppose reducing the damage-dealing ability of all the benders a little bit. In my mind, apart from accurately representing the show, one of our goals should be to reduce or eliminate the sort of combats we see in high-level D&D games wherein the character who wins initiative can end the encounter in one turn. I'm working on modifications of the Deflect Attack ability to make it more useful, even if you're caught flat-footed.

    And I agree with Lord Tataraus that Leap Attack and Battle Jump are just ridiculous.

    Edit: What do you think of the following re-write of Deflect Attack. I'm not sure whether it's balanced or not, but it does allow space for a bender to deflect even when surprised.

    Deflect Attack – Early in their training, benders learn to block or deflect attacks directed at them and their companions. Once per round, a bender can attempt to negate a ranged attack (either conventional or bending) targeted within 10 feet +5 ft/3 class levels. Negating this attack requires the bender succeed in an opposed attack roll. If the bender’s attack roll is less than her opponent’s, the attack is unaffected by the deflection attempt and is resolved as normal. Using this initial Deflect Bending attempt counts as an immediate action.

    Additionally, a bender has the option of reserving iterative attacks in order to gain more Deflect Attack attempts. Whenever she makes a full-round attack, a bender may choose to forgo a number of iterative attacks, gaining a number of additional Deflect Attack attempts equal to the number of attacks the bender reserved. Regardless of how many attacks a bender forgoes, she cannot use more Deflect Attack attempts than she has iterative attacks due to high Base Attack Bonus. These subsequent Deflect Bending attempts do not count as actions, and can be used any time during the round, even when it is not the bender's turn.

    If a bender is caught flat-footed, she can make a Reflex Save (DC 10 + ½ the attacker’s BAB + the attacker’s Dexterity modifier) to still make a Deflect Attack attempt. A flat-footed bender can never make more than a single Deflect Attack attempt.

    For example, a 15th level Firebender’s Base Attack Bonus allows her to make 3 iterative attacks. If she decides to make a full-round attack, she can reserve as many as 2 of these attacks in order to gain 2 additional Deflect Attack attempts (bringing her total to 3 for that round). If the Firebender chooses to use her Firestorm ability, she gains an additional iterative attack but still cannot make more than 3 Deflect Bending attempts in a single round.


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    Last edited by Mephibosheth; 2007-11-10 at 02:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiagu View Post
    Exactly. Firebenders have awesome combat prowess, but can't do much else except make a campfire while it's raining and heat their tea. Airbenders are the opposite; they can fly, they can jump 30 feet, they can run up walls... ...but in combat, they have very few ways to actually inflict damage.

    Speaking of those "mini freezing tsunamis of doom", any good waterbender should be able to make one of those by level 11 or 12. Getting smashed with one of those while flat-footed would stink, even though they don't do any damage.
    (Emphesis mine)

    Even though It wouldn't do any damage, I'd be stuck(helpless) unless I make a strength check or get Coup'de graced by the martial artist so...............
    Not forgetting Yldenfrei and the wonderful avatar she made.

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Well, that's your problem if you haven't chosen Breath of the Dragon as one of your firebending seeds...
    Last edited by Xiagu; 2007-11-10 at 01:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth View Post
    Deflect Attack – Early in their training, benders learn to block or deflect attacks directed at them and their companions. Once per round, a bender can attempt to negate a ranged attack (either conventional or bending) targeted within 10 feet +5 ft/3 class levels. Negating this attack requires the bender succeed in an opposed attack roll. If the bender’s attack roll is less than her opponent’s, the attack is unaffected by the deflection attempt and is resolved as normal. Using this ability does not count as an action.

    Additionally, a bender has the option of reserving iterative attacks in order to gain more Deflect Attack attempts. Whenever she makes a full-round attack, a bender may choose to forgo a number of iterative attacks, gaining a number of additional Deflect Attack attempts equal to the number of attacks the bender reserved. Regardless of how many attacks a bender forgoes, she cannot use more Deflect Attack attempts than she has iterative attacks due to high Base Attack Bonus.

    If a bender is caught flat-footed, she can make a Reflex Save (DC 10 + ½ the attacker’s BAB + the attacker’s Dexterity modifier) to still make a Deflect Attack attempt. A flat-footed bender can never make more than a single Deflect Attack attempt.

    For example, a 15th level Firebender’s Base Attack Bonus allows her to make 3 iterative attacks. If she decides to make a full-round attack, she can reserve as many as 2 of these attacks in order to gain 2 additional Deflect Attack attempts (bringing her total to 3 for that round). If the Firebender chooses to use her Firestorm ability, she gains an additional iterative attack but still cannot make more than 3 Deflect Bending attempts in a single round.
    I like this a lot. A bender should always be able to deflect at least once a round, though I do suggest that the free deflect is limited a bit by making it an immediate action.

    Also a note on the bender's damage, it just scales too high too quickly. To accurately represent the show, anyone of a decent level should be able to take many hits from bending. Therefore I propose to cut the scaling of damage roughly in half so that it increases by one die at every fifth level. So, damage would be 1dX at 1st then scale up at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level to a max of 5dX. Remember that a bender uses the blast as a normal ranged weapon and it has a large range. Normally ranged weapons max out at 2d8+strength, right now, a 5th level fire or earthbender goes over that and a waterbender gets over that damage at 7th level. This is way too early.

    In addition to the above proposal, I would like to remove the wound/vitality system. Like it says in the first line talking about it:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Characters using this system should be more wary in combat, which can turn deadly in the space of a few lucky rolls. But they can also bounce back from a fight much more quickly. For that reason, this variant is an ideal system for low-magic campaigns or games where healing is otherwise rare.
    Emphasis mine. Of course it does allow for faster natural healing, but if that's what we want, I suggest just writing into the HP rules a faster natural healing mechanic. The deadliness is not what we want since this show is most easily represented by the hit point system.

    My suggestion of the alteration of the hit point system is that we extend natural healing to be a function of both constitution and level. Such that you regain constitution score number of hit points per hour (like vitality) and level number of points per day.

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    I like your deflect bending fix Meph, but as Tataraus said, change it to an immediate action.

    Originally Posted by SRD
    Characters using this system should be more wary in combat, which can turn deadly in the space of a few lucky rolls. But they can also bounce back from a fight much more quickly. For that reason, this variant is an ideal system for low-magic campaigns or games where healing is otherwise rare.
    Emphasis mine.

    As not every campaign is going to include a Waterbender as the designated healstick, the vitality/wounds system is best. Combat is deadly, at the end of the day. Have feats like Toughness and Improved Toughness (CW) apply to Wound Points instead of hit points and that may help with the situation a little. Another thing to keep in mind, is that when you reach 0 WP (remember, you cannot go below 0 WP), you make a DC 15 Fort save to be disabled instead of dead. Not a terribly hard save, actually. Another thing that should be restated is that critical hits do not do double damage in such a system, doing normal damage. Higher critical multipliers enlarge the critical hit threat range. Vitality and Wound Points is actually a bit less lethal overall (harder to actually die), just has the potential of dropping a character to unconsciousness a little easier. I definitely say keep vitality/wounds and a hearty no to hit point system.

    -X
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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tataraus View Post
    Of course it does allow for faster natural healing, but if that's what we want, I suggest just writing into the HP rules a faster natural healing mechanic. The deadliness is not what we want since this show is most easily represented by the hit point system.

    My suggestion of the alteration of the hit point system is that we extend natural healing to be a function of both constitution and level. Such that you regain constitution score number of hit points per hour (like vitality) and level number of points per day.
    Emphasis mine.
    Did you read the rest, X? I addressed that statement, though not in a straightforward manner.

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    I don't know how I feel about reducing the ability of benders to deal damage with their blasts. On the one hand, that welterweight battle ended really quickly, and I really want this system to eliminate (or at least limit) battles where the outcome boils down to who wins initiative. And there are instances in the show where characters take hits and get up again.

    On the other hand, there are also instances where characters are taken out with one shot (Iroh in The Chase anyone?) or severely disabled by a single hit. Additionally, reducing the scaling of bending damage presents a unique problem to the Firebender, who doesn't really have anything going except dealing direct damage. If we were to reduce bending damage, we'd also have to nerf most of the seeds for other benders. Earthbenders and Waterbenders can both render opponents helpless in a single move, and Airbenders (contrary to what I've heard others saying) have the potential to deal lots of damage by flinging objects or throwing opponents skyward. If we just leave these abilities alone, Firebenders are going to be outclassed every time.

    That said, I don't necessarily oppose these nerfs. I'd rather benders be slightly underpowered than overpowered. We just need to be careful how we balance the system.

    With this in mind, I propose that, if we do reduce damage, we also severely limit immobilization forms. I propose that forms like the Wave/Freeze combo and the Earthbender's immobilization forms render opponents immobilized but not helpless by default. Only by increasing the bending DC substantially (+20 maybe) should a bender be able to render an opponent helpless.

    Edit: I changed Deflect Attack to reflect your comments. I hope that fixes it.

    My thoughts.

    Mephibosheth
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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth View Post
    I don't know how I feel about reducing the ability of benders to deal damage with their blasts. On the one hand, that welterweight battle ended really quickly, and I really want this system to eliminate (or at least limit) battles where the outcome boils down to who wins initiative. And there are instances in the show where characters take hits and get up again.

    On the other hand, there are also instances where characters are taken out with one shot (Iroh in The Chase anyone?) or severely disabled by a single hit. Additionally, reducing the scaling of bending damage presents a unique problem to the Firebender, who doesn't really have anything going except dealing direct damage. If we were to reduce bending damage, we'd also have to nerf most of the seeds for other benders. Earthbenders and Waterbenders can both render opponents helpless in a single move, and Airbenders (contrary to what I've heard others saying) have the potential to deal lots of damage by flinging objects or throwing opponents skyward. If we just leave these abilities alone, Firebenders are going to be outclassed every time.

    That said, I don't necessarily oppose these nerfs. I'd rather benders be slightly underpowered than overpowered. We just need to be careful how we balance the system.

    With this in mind, I propose that, if we do reduce damage, we also severely limit immobilization forms. I propose that forms like the Wave/Freeze combo and the Earthbender's immobilization forms render opponents immobilized but not helpless by default. Only by increasing the bending DC substantially (+20 maybe) should a bender be able to render an opponent helpless.

    Edit: I changed Deflect Attack to reflect your comments. I hope that fixes it.

    My thoughts.

    Mephibosheth
    Well, there are crits and instances of plot damage, that would explain easy take outs. I agree with your feelings about the firebenders getting left in the dust, however, I think the problem is the earthbender. The earthbender gets the same damage progression as the firebender, has higher HD, and gets battlefield control. I think the main problem is that the earthbenders are too powerful in comparision to the others and thus (pun warning) steal the firebenders flame. I also agree wholeheartedly with the immobilization nerf. Reflex saves and less of a penalty are definitely needed. As for Earthbender nerfs...I haven't got anything right now...

    Edit: Oh, and earthbenders get medium armor proficiency as well as mobility (climb) and negates their only poor save at 7th level.

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tataraus View Post
    Emphasis mine.
    Did you read the rest, X? I addressed that statement, though not in a straightforward manner.
    No, I did read it, I just didn't respond to it because my argument is simply that we don't need to fix what isn't broken. Vitality and Wounds works for the reasons I stated. Messing around with the hit point system's recovery rate isn't the answer, in my opinion. I simply think Vitality/Wounds works best.

    As far as nerfing Earthbender... I'd be behind that to an extent. Being burned overall sucks more than being hit by a rock. Maybe scale it down to less dice or reduce the damage die. Waterbender damage I think is fine, but the tough Earthbenders are perhaps a little too strong. Firebenders definitely have damage output though... I think instead of balancing them against each other precisely, we should look to the core rule book classes as examples for balanced overall, not balanced against each other.

    Each bender has a specific role to fulfill, and while the firebender may be best at damage output, the airbender is best at defending himself. Waterbenders can heal, which is a gift no one has, and Earthbenders are masters of controlling the battlefield. They need to be balanced overall, not balanced against each other in a fight.

    2 cents,
    -X
    Chris Bennett
    Author and Lead Developer of Path of War
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    Path of War and Path of War Expanded: An OGL Tome of Battle for the Pathfinder game system, for Dreamscarred Press.
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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    This is kind of unrelated, but....

    I've made this handy-dandy little table for quick referencing about what a bender can accomplish at each level, depending their wisdom score at level 1:

    {table=head]Level|MBM1, 14 Wis|Roll, 14 Wis||MBM, 16 Wis|Roll, 16 Wis||MBM, 18 Wis|Roll, 18 Wis
    1|+9 (4+SF+Wis)|19||+10|20||+11|21
    2|+12 (Synergy)|22||+13|23||+14|24
    3|+13|23||+14|24||+15|25
    4|+14|24||+15|25||+16|26
    5|+15|25||+16|26||+17|27
    6|+16|26||+17|27||+18|28
    7|+17|27||+18|28||+19|29
    8|+19 (16 Wis)|29||+20|30||+21|31
    9|+20|30||+21|31||+22|32
    10|+21|31||+22|32||+23|33
    11|+22|32||+23|33||+24|34
    12|+23|33||+24|34||+25|35
    13|+24|34||+25|35||+26|36
    14|+25|35||+26|36||+27|37
    15|+26|36||+27|37||+28|38
    16|+28 (18 Wis)|38||+29|39||+30|40
    17|+29|39||+30|40||+31|41
    18|+30|40||+31|41||+32|42
    19|+31|41||+32|42||+33|43
    20|+32|42||+33|43||+34|44
    [/table]
    1 - Maximum Bending Modifier

    You're assumed to put max ranks in your Bending skill every level, take skill focus, and get the Knowledge(Bending) synergy bonus.

    Now, I point out some ways to immobilize someone with waterbending, in order of time spent doing it:

    Standard Action:
    Wave + Freeze = DC 34
    Minimum Level = 12

    Standard Action + Swift Action:
    Wave = DC 15
    Freeze (swift action) = DC 30
    Minimum Level = 8

    Standard Action + Move Action:
    Wave = DC 15
    Freeze (move action) = DC 20
    Minimum Level = 1

    [sarcasm]Does anybody else see a problem with this?[/sarcasm] The slower ones would probably be easier to avoid, but still...
    Last edited by Xiagu; 2007-11-10 at 09:59 PM. Reason: updating table

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    Default Re: Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    No, I did read it, I just didn't respond to it because my argument is simply that we don't need to fix what isn't broken. Vitality and Wounds works for the reasons I stated. Messing around with the hit point system's recovery rate isn't the answer, in my opinion. I simply think Vitality/Wounds works best.
    I am not saying the vitality/wound system is broken, just that after a few playtests, it does not fit. I am very uncomfortable with Avatar D20 using a system that allows a lucky die roll to kill a perfectly healthy 20th level character in one hit...by a 1st level character. That can and will happen with the vitality/wound system. If you want a realistic and gritty game it works perfectly, but Avatar is not realistic or gritty in that sense. People are always getting thrown into walls and buildings and getting back up and into the fight. The wound/vitality system does not support that. However, do to the lack of healers, I thought we might want a faster natural healing, though my suggestion might to be too much. Maybe we should stick with normal level hit points per day or possibly speed it up to 2 or 3 times that.

    As far as nerfing Earthbender... I'd be behind that to an extent. Being burned overall sucks more than being hit by a rock. Maybe scale it down to less dice or reduce the damage die. Waterbender damage I think is fine, but the tough Earthbenders are perhaps a little too strong. Firebenders definitely have damage output though... I think instead of balancing them against each other precisely, we should look to the core rule book classes as examples for balanced overall, not balanced against each other.
    Actually, I think its best to balance them against themselves and anything they might face. So that includes Rogues, Barbarians (?), and the Martial Artists. The Martial Artists I can speak for confidently. Each style has progressive base damage that maxes at 2d6 for most, 3d6 for one. Many styles have extra damage that scales as well, the Mountain Protector scales the highest (though I'm considering dropping it down) to +10d4. Many of the styles only activate their additional damage under limiting circumstances. Whereas the fire and earthbenders have a very high consistent damage output.

    Each bender has a specific role to fulfill, and while the firebender may be best at damage output, the airbender is best at defending himself. Waterbenders can heal, which is a gift no one has, and Earthbenders are masters of controlling the battlefield. They need to be balanced overall, not balanced against each other in a fight.
    I do agree that they need to be balanced overall, and the playtests are not 1 vs 1's for that reason and I am planning on expanding into a party vs enemies later on.

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