Water, Earth, Fire and Air [Bending system & Base Classes]

[FlyMolo]

I had almost forgotten about that. Yes, definitely.

Give me a few days to bring my waterbender up 5 levels, I'm a little busy ATM.

Standard playtesting rules, including one prep round? full or half or 3/4 hitpoints per HD? Then name a time and place.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Standard rules, .5 hd +1 HP per level, and I like the idea of a prep round. Send me a PM when you're ready and we'll set it up on the arena thread.

[Xiagu]

I'm sorry that you're leaving the project, Eighth_Seraph. We who remain will work extra hard to compensate for your absence.

It's as true now as it is in my first post on this thread; when in doubt, set something on fire the system you've created here is absolutely awesome. Farewell.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Farwell, Eight Seraph.
I thank you for this system that haunted me for so long.(Can't sleep, Waterbenders watchin' me! )

Thank you.

[Thantos]

Farewell, This project has given me much lurking time so See Ya in a year and a half.

[ErrantX]

Well, it's been a pleasure Eighth Seraph, but we're not done with you yet :) Let's get this fining tuning done and get your martial arts variant out so we can make sure you leave feeling real good about your project and have no unfinished business with it. And besides, you can always stop in from time to time to check on us ;)

-X

[Darkbane]

We'll be sad to see you go, Eighth Seraph. It's a great system you've worked out.

On a completely different note, does anybody know where Lakoda is?

[Attilargh]

He said he was going on vacation until the 23rd, but that was last month. Maybe he meant December 23rd?

[Copacetic]

Hum de hum hum, Here is my Half-baked attempts at some of the Study Feats.


Water Study Feat
Earth:By studying The rolling motion of the waves you have learned how to apply it to your bending.
Benefit: You may combine The Create Rubble seed to any waterbendng seed and use it. For Example: You can combine the creat rubble seed with Waterwhip to make a whip of rubble.
Air: You have learned the ever swirling motion of the Ocean and how to use it to your bending.
Benefit: You may change the direction of your airblasts by 20 degrees per level. For Example: you could apply this to airblast around corners or use it to bring items to you.
Fire: You have learned to keep an open mind and study the Waterbenders.
Benefit:See Riderect Lightning


Earth Study Feat
Air: You have managed to make sense of the aggresive and unmoving philospohy of the Earthbenders
Benefit:You may apply your Airbending bonus to any attempts to resist bullrushes.
Water: You have mastered the ways of the Earth and may appply it to your bending
Benefit:-
Fire:You have studied the strong-headed Earthbenders and learned their technigue.
Benefit:-

Air Study Feat
Water: You have been tutored n the ways of the arbender and understand ther way of living.
Benefit: You gain a benefit equal to your waterbending bonus to all attempts at baking cream filled pies You may use airbending seeds with water instead of air( Not so sure about this one..)
Earth: You comprehend the elusive airbender's style.
Beneft: You may add your Dex score divided by 4 rounded down to all attepts to deflect bending.
Fire: As the Circle Walking feat, though the Dc is decreased by 10.


Well, there you go. The blank ones I obviously haven't thought of yet. Oh and P.E.A.C.H.

[Eighth_Seraph]

These are great! Exactly what I had in mind; now let's see if we can't get this done. I'm a bit dubious about earthbenders getting ANY waterbending seed so long as there's small chunks of earth floating around; there needs to be some sort of limit on that. Earthbending Learning could apply some defensive bonus to firebenders (they're short on those, and with good reason), such as offsetting their penalty to Deflect Bending; though that's hardly feat-worthy. Airbending Learning could give firebenders a movement speed bonus like the airbender's Burst of Speed.

These are off the top of my head. Anyone else have ideas?

[Copacetic]

These are great! Exactly what I had in mind; now let's see if we can't get this done. I'm a bit dubious about earthbenders getting ANY waterbending seed so long as there's small chunks of earth floating around; there needs to be some sort of limit on that. Earthbending Learning could apply some defensive bonus to firebenders (they're short on those, and with good reason), such as offsetting their penalty to Deflect Bending; though that's hardly feat-worthy. Airbending Learning could give firebenders a movement speed bonus like the airbender's Burst of Speed.

These are off the top of my head. Anyone else have ideas?

Well, thankee kindly. Yeah, some of them were just random ideas. (See also "Half-Baked)

About the whole Waterstudy feat thing, they still have to combine it with Create ruble which is... *checks thread* DC15, 19 if you count having the +4 for combing, AND the seed itself, though there should a an arbitraury bonus to the DC, your right.
Yeah, those are pretty good ideas, though I crave more imput.

[FlyMolo]

Water Study(Earth) should allow Earthbenders to pick one Waterbending seed on getting it. That should keep it balanced, I think. Also, no cold damage and up the damage dealt by one step.

Edit: Why no firestudy feat? I'll write up a proto-type, if nobody else minds.

Fire study- You have trained with firebenders, and understand the aggressive nature of combat.
Water- You may deal fire(heat?) damage through your waterbending seeds instead of cold, at your option.
Earth- You do not provoke AoO for using ranged weapons in an opponent's threatened range. You still provoke AoO for bending, if you do not bend defensively.
Air-Your Air Blasts deal damage as if they were fire blasts, at your option

Earth Study
Water- You don't pay the +4 for combining Freeze with other seeds, and the save DC for all ice-related effects increases by 2.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Fire study- You have trained with firebenders, and understand the aggressive nature of combat.
Water- You may deal fire(heat?) damage through your waterbending seeds instead of cold, at your option.
Earth- You do not provoke AoO for using ranged weapons in an opponent's threatened range. You still provoke AoO for bending, if you do not bend defensively.
Air-Your Air Blasts deal damage as if they were fire blasts, at your option

Water: I'd like to see an instance in which a waterbender did heat damage before I allow this.
Earth: How's this work? Firebenders still take AoOs for ranged weapons; just not their blasts since they can be used, essentially, as melee weapons.
Air: Again, how does this work? Not even getting into the balance of it, but I don't see how an airbender could deal fire damage or really any damage with his air blasts, falling and bludgeoning damage from flying objects aside.

I understand that this is basically saying "No" straight-out, but I don't see how any of these are possible in the Avatar world. If there's some thematic way of expressing them, please let me know and maybe we can use these after all.

[Copacetic]

I think the waterstudy feat should still allow earthbendes to use any seed, not just one 'cause other wise its useless. I mean the should be able to pick a tank with their wave of pebbles and smash it or make rubble tenacles or whatever, not just one of those.

[Eighth_Seraph]

The problem is that you can become a better waterbender by being an earthbender with this seed than by actually, y'know, being a waterbender. Allow earthbenders to take the feat multiple times if they want to learn more waterbending seeds and I think we're set.

Also, I think it's time that we stop avoiding the issue of Strength checks. I got owned one turn away from leaving Fly Molo's waterbender in bit-sized chunks by a single Wave/Freeze combo that sent me 35 feet back and froze me to the ground. I had taken 24 damage (Level 20 fighter; so that's almost negligible) and the Strength DC to break loose was, what, 31? I lost from that one attack. And that's going to happen to BBEG's and unfortunate PCs the world over if we don't fix this.

My idea goes something like this, and this could also apply to the earthbender's notorious Immobilize seed: Any Strength checks to break loose from a freezing effect due to being covered in water and then frozen is equal to 10 + Wisdom modifier. For situations when the target is immersed in large amounts of ice (such as the Wave seed) increase the DC by 4.

Still very difficult to break out of (DC 20 checks easily by level 20), but it's a step up from the impossible. The thing is that such difficulty in breaking out seems appropriate, as Katara trapped Zuko in ice overnight with her Wave/Freeze combo at the North Pole. Thematic brokenness: what to do?

[ErrantX]

Well, with the Water Study feat, I might want to reiterate an Extra Seed feat one more time. As it seems that if the Water Study feat is passing QC, then Extra Seed isn't too out of whack.

-X

[Eighth_Seraph]

I figured that would come up. I still am staunchly against it, but that won't matter in the immediate future. By the way, somebody is going to have to step up and be the new OP for the next bending thread. Benefits include:
-Final say on what is and is not accepted in the area of bending and the bending classes
-Ability to arbitrarily edit any material going into the setting within the bounds of bending
-Executive powers to decide what the thread is focused on making, what gets put on the back burner, and who is assigned to do what

Responsibilities include
-Must be a primary contributor of new material into project
-Must ensure that everything going into the project from the thread is both thematically appropriate and balanced, with input from the rest of the project to ascertain this
-Must be able to delegate assignments to people without them actually knowing that you're the reason that they feel the need to do them
-Must be willing and able to put actual time and effort into the setting
-Must be be able to give and take no for an answer, giving up on pet projects when the majority says that they're not thematically appropriate and balanced

Any takers?

EDIT: There was a large edit on my most recent post before this one, in case y'all missed it.

[Copacetic]

Hmm, That is a fairly good point. So, One seed it is then.

[Archangel Yuki]

[Unlurks]

I was watching Book 3, Episode 6, when Aang was watching the flashback with Roku. I noticed the fire lord syphoning what appears to be pure heat off of the magma in a volcano, cooling it down to a point to where it solidifed. Most magma, when in a liquid state, burns from 700 °C to 1,200 °C (1,300 °F to 2,200 °F). An erupting Volcano typically burns, at minimun, 1,000 °C.
That's alot of heat to by syphoning off.

It inspired the idea: can a firebender draw the heat out of the air, literally freezing the air?
Now apply that to people.

Just an idea.

[/Unlurks]

[Xiagu]

^ Ooo! Oo! I wrote something about that on this thread... ...somewhere...

Also, I think it's time that we stop avoiding the issue of Strength checks. I got owned one turn away from leaving Fly Molo's waterbender in bit-sized chunks by a single Wave/Freeze combo that sent me 35 feet back and froze me to the ground. I had taken 24 damage (Level 20 fighter; so that's almost negligible) and the Strength DC to break loose was, what, 31? I lost from that one attack. And that's going to happen to BBEG's and unfortunate PCs the world over if we don't fix this.

My idea goes something like this, and this could also apply to the earthbender's notorious Immobilize seed: Any Strength checks to break loose from a freezing effect due to being covered in water and then frozen is equal to 10 + Wisdom modifier. For situations when the target is immersed in large amounts of ice (such as the Wave seed) increase the DC by 4.

Still very difficult to break out of (DC 20 checks easily by level 20), but it's a step up from the impossible. The thing is that such difficulty in breaking out seems appropriate, as Katara trapped Zuko in ice overnight with her Wave/Freeze combo at the North Pole. Thematic brokenness: what to do?

Actually, I thought that Zuko was only trapped for a minute or two, because Katara had just started walking back towards Aang when Zuko escaped and knocked her out. Whatever.

Here's my post about this in the analysis thread:

About the issue with extremely high immobilization DCs:
Frostburn pegs the Strength DC to break out of ice as 23, as long as you're within 5 feet of the surface of the ice you're trapped in. (from the Entombed's ability Immure.) And that's when you're completely covered in a thick layer of ice.

Don't know where to find the DC for stone, though...

I think that earthquake (the spell) has some stuff about being buried, although it's for being buried under rubble. But close enough, right?

[Lord Tataraus]

Actually, I thought that Zuko was only trapped for a minute or two, because Katara had just started walking back towards Aang when Zuko escaped and knocked her out. Whatever.

He used his firebending to melt the ice in a matter of seconds.

[ErrantX]

Alright, I've been quiet long enough, so I guess I'll step in and say my critiques and such.

To the Bending Style Study feats:

I love the concept, but I think the execution for the completed portions of it aren't what they should be. For example: Water Study gives an Earthbender a waterbending seed. This is not okay. As the idea of an Extra Seed feat was shot down, this is essentially the same thing but it requires you to combo said extra seed with a specific other seed (see the above feat for an example), but the worst is that it allows you to learn another element, one feat at a time. This removes some of the fluff for the Avatar, and thus is no good to me. I would say that it would give you a certain quality or one set capability, in an aspect where their elements might overlap. Water Study, for example, would work as, say:

Water Study
By studying the arts of the waterbender, a bender may use those principles in bending their own element.
Benefit: Depending on one's bending class, this feat grants the following:
Earth- the Earthbender can do a variation of the Swim class feature but in rock and earth.
Air- Airbenders can use the principles of the waterbender's waterblast to cause their Air Scythe to do lethal damage.
Fire- Firebenders can redirect lightning (which is a variation on the Circular Attack class feature.)

Just an idea. I can try my hand at making more of these later.

Next up, Strength checks versus the Freeze/Wave or Immobilize abilities:

My idea goes something like this, and this could also apply to the earthbender's notorious Immobilize seed: Any Strength checks to break loose from a freezing effect due to being covered in water and then frozen is equal to 10 + Wisdom modifier. For situations when the target is immersed in large amounts of ice (such as the Wave seed) increase the DC by 4.

I would increase that to 10 + half bender level + Wisdom modifier, and the +4 is good and reasonable. I just feel that a 20th level earth or waterbender should be able to inspire a little difficulty in people with an immense 24-26 (average) DC check. That's how I'd roll it.

As for being custodian of the threads, I'll throw my name into the hat for who gets to be the moderator of our project. If I don't measure up for one reason or another to run it, I'd back Meph on running the show. He started the original thread and has been a major contributor.

2 cents deposited,
-X

[Lord Tataraus]

I've been silent on this subject just as X has and I must say I agree with him. I do not like the idea of a bender using the seeds of another element. I just don't know how you'd get that. I can see X's Water Study feat however, I remember Toph swimming in earth at some point and everyone knows about the redirect lightning thing.

[Mr. Moogle]

Ask, and it shall be added unto you...

Behold!






Apologies for the melodrama. It seemed like a good idea at the time.

I can understand that you dont want to overpower this seed, but if your frozen up to your neck, your gonna be pretty d**n helpless. Wouldnt you agree?

[Mr. Moogle]

Sorry about the double post but i waas just struck by a realization, what would two benders (lets say fire and water) do if they were to synchronize their attacks (possibly like the synchronize ability of the Timethiefhttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62071 as presented in this class with a dc: 2X bending check). And mayhap comine the Firebender's a fireblast with the Waterbender's water blast to create a line of steam that deals both their damages and also gives the victim 20% miss chancefor the next 1d4 rounds after being blinded by steam? I personally think that combining seeds to create a combo effect would be a cool thing to do

[Guyr Adamantine]

I figured that would come up. I still am staunchly against it, but that won't matter in the immediate future. By the way, somebody is going to have to step up and be the new OP for the next bending thread. Benefits include:
-Final say on what is and is not accepted in the area of bending and the bending classes
-Ability to arbitrarily edit any material going into the setting within the bounds of bending
-Executive powers to decide what the thread is focused on making, what gets put on the back burner, and who is assigned to do what

Responsibilities include
-Must be a primary contributor of new material into project
-Must ensure that everything going into the project from the thread is both thematically appropriate and balanced, with input from the rest of the project to ascertain this
-Must be able to delegate assignments to people without them actually knowing that you're the reason that they feel the need to do them
-Must be willing and able to put actual time and effort into the setting
-Must be be able to give and take no for an answer, giving up on pet projects when the majority says that they're not thematically appropriate and balanced

Well, I'd be glad to take the job, but some people more experienced might be chosen. I love this project, so no mather who rules it, I will cherish it.

[Lord Tataraus]

Well, I'd be glad to take the job, but some people more experienced might be chosen. I love this project, so no mather who rules it, I will cherish it.

In that light, may I draw your attention to the Leader Voting Thread. Nominations have begun and voting will commence in 3 days. It is important that everyone votes!!!

[ErrantX]

Big thanks to LT for starting a voting thread. Less clutter here is good.

Anyways, on to business. Bending Study feats. Here are my interpretations of them.

Waterbending Study
By studying the arts of the ebb and flow of the tides like a waterbender, a bender may use those principles in bending their own element.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Bending) 6 ranks.
Benefit: Depending on one's bending class, this feat grants the following:
Earth- The earth beneath an earthbender's feet can be no more solid than water to a waterbender, and when this is realized, the earthbender breaks down one of his limitations. The earthbender may now earth-swim at his base speed plus 5 for every five bender levels he possesses.
Air- By studying the effects of pressure on water, an airbender may learn to better focus his energies with pressurized air. The airbender may now make an air blast attack as if he were a waterbender of equal level. The damage from this attack is non-lethal. If the airbender possesses the Air Scythe seed, he may now do lethal damage with that attack, regardless of whether or not he has a staff.
Fire- The ebb and flow of the tides can be as the ebb and flow of breath and chi, the realm of the firebender. The firebender may now use the redirect lightning power of the Lightning seed.

Airbending Study
The flows of the wind may influence all elements, and an astute bender may learn power by understanding this.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Bending) 6 ranks.
Benefit: Depending on one's bending class, this feat grants the following:
Earth- Air flows around all obstacles, and the earthbender who learns this understands a new way to mold his stubborn element. By breaking down his earth blast into dozens of pebbles, he may negate a foe's cover. Reduce a foe's cover bonus by one step (full to partial, partial to none), but reduce the earth blast by 1d6 due to the loss of solid mass.
Water- Air currents mass and swell around an airbender, aiding their movements. The insightful waterbender learns that while air exists around the body, water exists inside of it. With this understanding, the waterbender may use his water to aid his equilibrium, gaining his Wisdom modifier as a circumstance bonus to Balance and Tumble checks.
Fire- With similiarly insubstantial elements, the firebender learns ways to manipulate his flame to increase it's defensive capabilities, as befits an airbender. By learning to channel his flame's currents through the air around him, he makes a better defense for himself. The firebender's penalty to Deflect Bending is reduced by -2.

Firebending Study
The breath of the dragon is the power of the firebender, and by learning this principle a bender may find that the breath can bring strength to his own element.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Bending) 6 ranks.
Benefit: Depending on one's bending class, this feat grants the following:
Air- Breath is the airbender's territory, for it is the element itself that they bend. By manipulating air currents, the bender may reduce some of the sting of a firebender's breath. So long as the airbender is aware of the incoming fire and he is making at least a partial defensive action, he gains a Fire Resistance equal to his Wisdom modifier.
Water- The natural antithesis of fire, the waterbender learns that strength of fire lies in its intensity. With this knowledge, the waterbender may increase the force of his water blast by adding his Wisdom modifier to the damage.
Earth- For the earthbender, the ways of fire may teach a lesson of haste and passion. The earthbender may increase the speed of his earth blasts by reducing the size and power of the blast. When making a full attack action, the earthbender receives an extra attack at his highest attack bonus. The damage of the blasts are reduced by 1d6 and all attacks receive a -2 penalty.

Earthbending Study
Hard and unyielding, the earthbender's element is as resiliant as he is. A truly perceptive bender glean an epiphany with his own element by understanding this.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Bending) 6 ranks.
Benefit: Depending on one's bending class, this feat grants the following:
Air- The resolute and unyielding earth defies the changing winds, and the airbender that learns this, learns that his element too may be unyielding it's strength. The airbender may now oppose bullrush attempts by utilizing his airbending, using an airbending skill check instead of the normal bull rush resistance roll.
Water- Water may carve canyons into the earth, but the hardest earth directs where this water flows. By learning how to form harder ice, the waterbender learns to be unyielding. The waterbender may add his Wisdom modifier to the hardness of his ice and twice his Wisdom modifier to the ice's hit points, and he may increase the break DC on immobilizing ice constructs by +2.
Fire- To a student of fire who studies and masters the ways of earth, no wall is too high. By burning and melting handholds into surfaces, a firebender may climb swiftly. The firebender gains a climb speed of 10 plus five for every five firebender levels he possesses. The surface that the firebender is climbing must be of a substance he can either combust (such as wood) or melt (such as metal or stone).

---
PEACH at your leisure.

-X

[Xiagu]

He used his firebending to melt the ice in a matter of seconds.

True, but the sun came up almost immediately after Katara froze him in ice. The sun allowed him to escape and knock her out. (not that it matters, I just like being right)

Immobilization DCs:

I would increase that to 10 + half bender level + Wisdom modifier, and the +4 is good and reasonable. I just feel that a 20th level earth or waterbender should be able to inspire a little difficulty in people with an immense 24-26 (average) DC check. That's how I'd roll it.

Hmm... ...table time!

Spoiler

Show

Strength DCs (partial coverage vs. full coverage)
{table=head]Level|Wisdom|Mod|X's DC partial|X's DC full|Eighth's DC partial|Eighth's DC full
1|18|+4|14|18|14|18
2|18|+4|15|19|14|18
3|18|+4|15|19|14|18
4|19|+4|16|20|14|18
5|19|+4|16|20|14|18
6|19|+4|17|21|14|18
7|19|+4|17|21|14|18
8|20|+5|19|23|15|19
9|20|+5|19|23|15|19
10|20|+5|20|24|15|19
11|20|+5|20|24|15|19
12|21|+5|21|25|15|19
13|21|+5|21|25|15|19
14|21|+5|22|26|15|19
15|21|+5|22|26|15|19
16|22|+6|24|28|16|20
17|22|+6|24|28|16|20
18|22|+6|25|29|16|20
19|22|+6|25|29|16|20
20|23|+6|26|30|16|20
[/table]

What if... we made the DC to escape complete coverage the bender's Wisdom score, and the DC to escape partial coverage the bender's Wisdom score - 4? Then the DC would start out at around 13-14, and increase to up to 18-19 for partial coverage, and would go from 17-18 to 22-23 for complete immobilization.

Bending Study feats:

Anyways, on to business. Bending Study feats. Here are my interpretations of them.

*snip*

Those look great, X. Comments below:

Waterbending/Air:Doesn't Air Scythe already deal lethal damage? Or is trying to say that if the airbender has the Air Scythe seed, he deals lethal damage with this new attack?

Firebending/Earth: At his lowest base attack bonus? That attack almost never hits anything...

Earthbending/Fire: I'd say that the climb speed is too fast. Melting stuff probably takes longer than earthbending it.

[Uthug]

I would have to agree with X's version of the immobilization strength check DC's. Firstly, it would not make much sense if the bender's ability to keep someone immobilized did not increase as he gained more experience. Secondly, going with Eighth's DC, it would become more or less opposed checks, which I'm not saying is a bad thing but I feel that the bender should get a bonus on this based on his level.

Spoiler

Show

Actually, why would it make sense for the difficulty to break out of something be based on anything concerned with the bender at all? Wouldn't breaking out of a chunk of ice made by a level 10 bender be about as hard to break out of as one made by a level 5 one?

Another question I have been thinking about concerning opposed bending. How would opposed bending work as for most seeds and forms, the bender does not necessarily focus on maintaining control of his element? For example, when Toph encased Azula in stone during the invasion where the gang was looking for the Fire Lord, her Dai Lee agents were easily able to cause it to crumble to bits. Note that Toph is supposed to be the best Earthbender in the world. Something concerning maintaining control of the element: If a Waterbender were to make use of a certain seed, say Tentacle, how long does the tentacle(s) remain there? If it has a duration longer than the bender's round, wouldn't she have to use some sort of relavant action on her turn in order to maintain the water in that form or control it, preventing it from dropping to the ground? I don't suppose that the water can move on its own accord, attacking and making attacks of opportunities without using up any of the wielder's actions. Maybe this seed could have roughly the same limitations as the golem seed, except that the wielder only needs to use a standard action to control it.