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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kioran's Avatar

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    Default What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Honestly!

    In the 4th Ed trailer, in the wish list, practically everywhere, people complain about grappling or the Grapple rules being overly complicated. Same with the other combat special maneuvers (not the ToB usage of the word, I mean Bull Rush etc.) rules. Honestly, I don´t think they´re quite that complicated.

    I´ve used them all, more or less, and it´s just a small something to remember. Of course, Grappling is all kinds of unbalanced right now, with PCs almost incapable of going toe-to-toe with any large Monster, not even the real Hugmonsters, but there´s nothing wrong with the rule as such as far as I am concerned, just with the balance of it all.

    Why do many of you think Grappling is so bad? And what should one do about it? Retool the mechanics? Scrap it entirely?
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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    I think the problem isn't that the grapple mechanic is complicated, it's that it's cumbersome. It's grapple check after grapple check after grapple check, for whatever you want to do. So no matter what you want to do, unless you're specifically ready for a grapple (with the stats for it or a verbal-only spell), you're screwed.

    I also think that section of the book is written quite poorly. I think bulletpoints on such a thing would help a lot, and cut down on the need for interpretation.

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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Grapple check, Grapple check, Grapple check, Grapple check, Grapple check

    Wait I'm bigger than you

    Fail, Release, Squish, Maim, Breath Weapon

    Using you are big, focus heavily on it, or don't use your hands; grappling is annoying, cumbersome, and leads to bludgeoning-based heartbreak.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    IMHO, Grappling mechanics are so maligned because they somehow manage to be abusable AND weak at the same time. In addition to being cumbersome.

    If you want to be a focused grappler, you will completely destroy non-grappling focused opposition without even giving them a chance to fight back. Unless they are big. Or have Freedom of Movement. In which case you die.

    If you are NOT focused on grappling, it's so weak as to be useless. You have to make so many checks to do stuff, odds are you're going to roll badly eventually.

    And as Orzel said earlier, they're just so many checks you need to make that it also slows down gameplay and makes people annoyed.

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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    That really is the heart of the problem - grappling is powerful enough that it unbalances combat. Normally a high-level wizard is a very dangerous fight - not if you have a grappler! Unless the wizard can stay out of reach, the instant the grappler gets a hold, combat is effectively over, but there's still a lot of rolling to do.

    I will say that even non-specialists (like a human rogue with 12 strength) can make grappling useful in the right circumstances. When fighting a small, nimble, annoying creature (in this case an imp) grappling can pin the target down and allow the rest of the party to commence gangbeating.

    As someone who actually has grappling training IRL, I'd say the mechanics as they stand are a reasonable representation of RL grappling, except for the Reaping Mauler's "Sleeper Hold" ability. At least with what I've been taught, knocking someone out without killing them is a tricky challenge in a grapple. I only know of one hold that would actually lead to a KO, and there's only a few seconds difference between conscious, unconscious, and dead.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leicontis View Post
    That really is the heart of the problem - grappling is powerful enough that it unbalances combat. Normally a high-level wizard is a very dangerous fight - not if you have a grappler! Unless the wizard can stay out of reach, the instant the grappler gets a hold, combat is effectively over, but there's still a lot of rolling to do.

    I will say that even non-specialists (like a human rogue with 12 strength) can make grappling useful in the right circumstances. When fighting a small, nimble, annoying creature (in this case an imp) grappling can pin the target down and allow the rest of the party to commence gangbeating.

    As someone who actually has grappling training IRL, I'd say the mechanics as they stand are a reasonable representation of RL grappling, except for the Reaping Mauler's "Sleeper Hold" ability. At least with what I've been taught, knocking someone out without killing them is a tricky challenge in a grapple. I only know of one hold that would actually lead to a KO, and there's only a few seconds difference between conscious, unconscious, and dead.
    Actually, my main problem with grappling, ironically, is that spellcasters and everyone else can avoid it all together with a ring of Freedom of Movement, which by RAW makes you immune to being grappled. Pretty dumb to write so many grapple rules and then make it so easy to avoid. The only thing that's really confusing about grapple is how to make attacks in it.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    I don't find Grapple or the other special attacks confusing at all. They all follow a general format :

    Attack of Opportunity
    Touch Attack
    Some opposed attack roll or strength check
    Result



    Now, I do think that the ones that require an attack-roll-esque thing could fold that into the touch attack; If your Grapple check doesn't beat their touch AC, it doesn't matter what they rolled, you simply failed to get hold of them, for instance. If your Disarm or Sunder attack roll doesn't hit their touch AC, you fail to strike their weapon. That leaves us with :

    AoO (Which you can remove with a feat)
    Opposed roll
    Result

    The part that adds complication is knowing the modifiers, but that's not tough either. If it's something that requires an attack roll (Sunder, Disarm), you modify your roll by 4 points depending on what weapon you're wielding, and by 4 points for each size category you are larger than your opponent. The other battlefield-modifying special attacks modify your roll by 4 for size difference only.

    Where's the complication?
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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    I don't find Grapple or the other special attacks confusing at all. They all follow a general format :

    Attack of Opportunity
    Touch Attack
    Some opposed attack roll or strength check
    Result



    Now, I do think that the ones that require an attack-roll-esque thing could fold that into the touch attack; If your Grapple check doesn't beat their touch AC, it doesn't matter what they rolled, you simply failed to get hold of them, for instance. If your Disarm or Sunder attack roll doesn't hit their touch AC, you fail to strike their weapon. That leaves us with :

    AoO (Which you can remove with a feat)
    Opposed roll
    Result

    The part that adds complication is knowing the modifiers, but that's not tough either. If it's something that requires an attack roll (Sunder, Disarm), you modify your roll by 4 points depending on what weapon you're wielding, and by 4 points for each size category you are larger than your opponent. The other battlefield-modifying special attacks modify your roll by 4 for size difference only.

    Where's the complication?
    As said above, the complication is the grapple roll after grapple roll made on both of the grapplers turns in order for them to do anything at all. It's tedious.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    It's very cumbersome. Not one gamer I know can explain it to you off the top of their heads. There's a large number of rolls involved. Once you're grappling, there's a whole new list of things you can do. Once you're pinned, there's another list. Also, there are special conditions - you move into your opponent's square, you're both lose your Dex bonus against other enemies but not against each other, etc.

    It should really just be one opposed roll. If you make it, your enemy is grappled, you deal damage, and you're both immobile. On your opponents turn he can he can make an opposed roll to deal damage or escape. That's it. End of story. While it might be logical in the real world sense that you could do lots of other things (pin, stop them from talking, etc) and that all sorts of special conditions might apply, in practice its a game, and the game needs to flow.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    My gaming group has one PC who is primarily a grappler. Every time that he grapples, he and the DM pull out a 4 page chart of things that he can do. It really slows down the game.

    The scene in the 4th Edition preview is *very* accurate.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    the size mods are fair i think, although i agree that the system bogs down quickly.
    if you do not think they are accurate YOU go and wrestle a tiger, see how likely you are to win!
    seriously though IRL a small difference in size (by dnd size standards) makes a lot of difference.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    The problem is that you either rock at it or you suck at it. With most characters, they will either dominate a grapple or be helpless against the first foe with Improved Grab. The disparity between Grapple bonuses, and the ease of getting a substantial one, combined with the fact that blinking while grappled requires a half-dozen opposed rolls, means that statistics rears its ugly head: whoever has the biggest bonus is, simply put, going to win. It's frustrating, unwieldy, and an all-around PITA.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Seriously have any of you ever grappled/wrestled. There is a reason for all the rolls, people resist what you are trying to do, and unless you are incredibly skilled and the other guy a dope it can take a bit of doing. Good example is most MMA fights that go to the ground, imagine the amount of rolls involved there. Now and then some one makes a mistake and gets choked out preety quick , thats the equivilant of the winner rolling a 20 and the loser a 1.

    Unless your fighting Will Ferrell and his bottle of oil.
    Last edited by crabpuff; 2007-08-17 at 12:38 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by crabpuff View Post
    Seriously have any of you ever grappled/wrestled. There is a reason for all the rolls, people resist what you are trying to do, and unless you are incredibly skilled and the other guy a dope it can take a bit of doing.
    The same can be said about fencing - or indeed any other competition - as well. In a game of "I grab some bat poo and cast the spell, how much do I roll for damage?", the amount of rolling inherent in grappling is baffling at best.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by crabpuff View Post
    Seriously have any of you ever grappled/wrestled. There is a reason for all the rolls, people resist what you are trying to do, and unless you are incredibly skilled and the other guy a dope it can take a bit of doing. Good example is most MMA fights that go to the ground, imagine the amount of rolls involved there. Now and then some one makes a mistake and gets choked out preety quick , thats the equivilant of the winner rolling a 20 and the loser a 1.

    Unless your fighting Will Ferrell and his bottle of oil.
    You are of course right, but it not any argument. Look at the amount of moves involved in swordfight. Punching. Shooting bow/sling reloading crossbow. They're all represented by single roll. So, two solutions - everything is little more complex or grapple is less complex.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by mudbunny View Post
    My gaming group has one PC who is primarily a grappler. Every time that he grapples, he and the DM pull out a 4 page chart of things that he can do. It really slows down the game.

    The scene in the 4th Edition preview is *very* accurate.
    Then they both need to sit down and read - and memorize - the grappling rules. The people I play with aren't experts on the grapple rules, but we make sure we all know A) What we're allowed to do, in a grapple and B) How to calculate their grapple modifier. If it's more complicated than "Make an opposed grapple. You win, great!", then they refer to me, because I have a couple of characters who make extensive use of the rules, so I sat down and committed them all to memory. If anyone ever wants to work out a grapple in the group, I tell them what to roll (even if I'm not the DM, it's a groupwide agreement that I'm the Grapple Man), and it takes very little extra time. Yes, the old "I slash him with my sword. *Roll*" is faster - it's six words and a slight hand motion. However, that gets BORING. I don't see anyone complaining about the ToB's maneuver system, and how easy it is to get lost in the litany of "I use my Girallion Windmill Flesh Rip boost along with my Dancing Mongoose of Doom Cleaver strike, while in my Stance of Unending Blows." *Rolls 700 dice, starts working out the results, and five minutes later...* "I do 7605 damage, from 896 hits."
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    HalflingRogueGirl

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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Given D&D3's armor class, hit points and gnome hooked hammer, "realistic" is not an excuse for "cumbersome"; realism is already out the window. If you want complicated, realistic combat, there's GURPS.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Watching people argue that something isn't confusing to someone who is or has been confused is hilarious. It's like raising you're voice when you're talking to a deaf person.
    Last edited by Counterspin; 2007-08-17 at 01:19 PM.

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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiryt View Post
    You are of course right, but it not any argument. Look at the amount of moves involved in swordfight. Punching. Shooting bow/sling reloading crossbow. They're all represented by single roll. So, two solutions - everything is little more complex or grapple is less complex.
    It doesn't have to do with the amount of moves, but what is involved in it. Striking isn't easier or harder just different and probably quicker. That's why crowds stand up and go nuts for slug fests, versus long drawn out grappling.

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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    i think some people overdo it a bit when it comes to the complexity of the grapple rules, we have used them a bit as well, and really all it should take is to sit down, read the rules carefully and then use them a bit.
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Grappling and other special attacks get confusing when performed by monsters who possess different modes of attack/appendages.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by see View Post
    Given D&D3's armor class, hit points and gnome hooked hammer, "realistic" is not an excuse for "cumbersome"; realism is already out the window. If you want complicated, realistic combat, there's Rolemaster.
    Fixed that for you. ;)
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyPanda View Post
    Grappling and other special attacks get confusing when performed by monsters who possess different modes of attack/appendages.
    Especially constrict attacks. Didn't it take even Fax and Silvanos a little time to figure out how that giant crab thing worked?

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Really it just comes down to the fact that actual grappling isn't inherently more complicated than any other form of single combat, but the rules for it require far more rolling and special conditions. It's clunky and didn't need to be so.

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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    after having played a grapple character, and now having DM'ed a game with a grappler in it i can speak from both sides of the 'to grapple/not to grapple' thing.
    grappling is powerfull. a character baised around it can efectivly elimanate one badguy from the fight, so the DM counters by putting in a bunch of IMP. grapple monsters in the game. thereby screwing the rest of the party who couldn't grapple.
    so when it came time to counter my player grappler it was an easy choice for me. Archers. plain, old fashioned archers. shoot 'em. thats how you handle grapplers. yes they're over complicated, and there are a lot of house rules for over coming that, but in the end it's the DM and the player who have to blance it out.
    Last edited by AjaxTorbin; 2007-08-17 at 05:22 PM.
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    I agree there are too many steps involved - what could be done?

    I'd say get rid of step three - the opposed grapple roll to hold the opponent - you hit with the grab action therefore you're grappling - and deal unarmed damage for that round. After that then an opposed grapple check for each round - the winner gets to do any of the possible actions, the loser, well, suffers.

    This would also lose the extra AoO on the maintain grapple check - seems harsh to provoke 2 AoOs for essentially the same action - once you've grabbed successfully you're within the target's space, end of.

    Simple and I'm sure I've overlooked some of the intricacies, but I've had wine, so excuse me.

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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Yes the grappling rules do require waaaaaaaaay too many rolls, it's still very effective. Sometimes. I've seen many wannabe grapplers go down thanks to ranged attackers.
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  28. - Top - End - #28
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Well, aside from ranged attacks, the other problems are size, strength, and flying issues. Grappling is fine when you're fighting roughly humanoid-sized, humanoid-strengthed opponents. It isn't so effective against Balors or Dragons... and later on, a significant percentage of the opponents players face are going to be either flying, dramatically bigger than them, or massively stronger than them str-wise.

    The bigger problem, though, is that grappling has all this excessive dice-rolling and extra rules and then, when you get down to it... what does it add to the game? Sure, if you can get next to a caster and they don't have FoM from somewhere, you can beat them. So what? Under those conditions (or similar ones), your raging barbarian with a massive enchanted greatsword could beat them just as easily. Under what conditions does grappling offer an improvement over just beating something to death? It could be justified as a flavor thing if it was simple, if you could cover the grappling rules in a short paragraph or two like with trip or disarm, and (at most) one roll total per grapple per round... but there's not enough payoff here to be worth more than that.

    I don't think there was enough thought put into how grappling would fit into the game... that's why FoM beats it so completely. Sure, they probably could turn it into something workable, but my gut feeling? Kill it. It always felt like it was badly-grafted onto the rules, and always seemed a little out of place... I think that way back when they just kept running into people during playtesting who kept wanting to grab opponents no matter how many times they were told that there were no rules for it, so they whipped up some quick-and-dirty rules without thinking about how it'd actually play or fit into the game, and it just survived through the editions from that.

    It just doesn't fit, though. The D&D rules, stats, everything is written to be an abstraction of blow-by-blow combat. Grappling breaks the flow... the entire maneuver is the kind of low-level combat action that has been abstracted out everywhere else.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Counterspin View Post
    Watching people argue that something isn't confusing to someone who is or has been confused is hilarious. It's like raising you're voice when you're talking to a deaf person.
    I'm not arguing, I'm explaining. People seem to think that grappling requires way too many rolls; If you START your grapple in a given turn, it requires one more attack than just making a full attack. One to touch, then a grapple check in place of an attack roll from there on out. I'm just trying to point out how it follows a very simple pattern of :

    Touch if needed/potential AoO
    Grapple check
    Result

    Which is VERY similar to :

    Attack roll
    Damage

    Could it be improved? Absolutely. Is it confusing as it is right now? Not really, it's just intimidating at first glance.
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    Default Re: What´s the Obsession with Grapple rules?

    You think they're bad now? Back in AD&D, it was mostly Strength checks, and you really only had the option of "overbearing your opponent into a pin.".

    As to what it accomplishes that the axe-wielding barbarian cannot, it sets them up. The barbarian may not necessarily be able to drop them in one.

    As written though, Grappling is more for tentacled/serpentine monsters(almost all Aberrations, Mariliths, Couatls, Lillends, and anyone who gets Constrict or other options in Grapples.
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