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Thread: The Sigil

  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Oct 2017

    Default The Sigil

    Hello all,

    This is a class I worked on for a while now, it had the volunteer help of a load of people to get it to the point its at and I hope if anyone uses it that you enjoy it.

    There are changes that will happen to the PDF, mostly those changes will be for typos, art, lore and very minimal mechanical changes.

    Any mechanical changes will be a result of pre-launch changes to get the class where it needs to be either by clarifying what something does for ease or reading or simplifying things for ease of playing.

    But in the end there wont be drastic changes to much as the class is already complete.

    Update:: I'll be updating the class every Thursday or Friday if there is an update, right now there is one but I'm going over things to make sure they work as intended. Most of them again are like art related or typographical but a few are changes to abilities in the aims of simplifying them.

    What is this PDF?
    The PDF is about a class called Sigil, I'll be going into the Lore mainly from this point on so you will see changes in some of the flavor text and in the DM section "Thanks and everything under the sun".

    What is this Class?
    It's an intelligence controller type class that works mainly as an offensive counter mage full caster unlike abjuration wizard which works more defensive. It uses a proprietary casting system called chaos points which limits its spell casting. To fit with the theme of chaos it has a recovery mechanic similar to recharge rolls on dragon breaths. Successes on those grant things back, in most cases its chaos points but it can apply to other specific things as well.

    When will it all be done?
    This is a project of love so I come back to it once in a while, I'm done with the mechanics part of it as it looks like what I want it to look like. However the lore part will take more research on my end and could take maybe till next year February before that part is done.

    There is a weapon at the bottom?
    Right so I was asked to make a class specific weapon or armor, I figured I would go with a weapon. The weapon is called the Undaunted Blade more generally but I chose to make it a Scythe in the example. It is designed to compensate for the weaknesses of the class rather than building on the strengths.

    Where is the link?
    http://www.dmsguild.com/product/225121/The-Sigil


    Are you looking for advice or suggestions?
    Sure, I can't guarantee that what you suggest or advise will be considered and I would first say that before you offer any criticisms that you be very specific about what the criticism is about. I can't address things if you rant or speak in general terms.

    Likewise exploding any chat with a laundry list will probably just prompt me to ignore the post, take the criticisms slowly and rationalize them with what the class is for all its nuance before coming up with 101 reasons why...

    Anyway enjoy.
    Last edited by Arte; 2017-10-31 at 08:12 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Oct 2017

    Default Re: The Sigil

    Note that these updates will be on the version coming tomorrow.

    Update Changes::

    Sigil Update 1 is live. Changes are listed in the updates section for those who already had the module loaded. 11/2/2017
    Last edited by Arte; 2017-11-02 at 04:59 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Sigil

    HP, it's a d8 class. Nothing special.

    Proficiencies... It gets Longsword, Whip, and Glaive, so it's got good weapon options. I'm a touch leery of this, since it seems to be a casting class (so far), but that's honestly 1-2 DPR, so probably not a big deal.

    Decent set of skills, nothing unusual.

    Equipment seems fine, but I'd upgrade Padded armor to Leather.

    I am INCREDIBLY leery of the Recovery mechanic. It seems too random to balance a limited-use mechanic.

    Chaos Trigger is worded poorly. You need to clean it up a little-but from what I understand... It seems okay? Hex-like, but consumes a BA every turn.

    Arcane Expertise, okay, nothing special.

    Eldritch Ward is interesting, but doesn't seem OP.

    Oath And Chaos seems absolutely insane. Recovery die EVERY TIME YOU HIT A MAGICAL CREATURE? That's... That's absolutely ridiculous.

    Gathering Entropy needs an action.

    Broken Echo is OP. It allows you to Counterspell basically at-will, and has a ton of bonus effect options (all of which are quite potent) for no cost.

    Second Trigger references an Extra Attack you do not have.

    Chaotic Reveler feels too good, with the rebound mechanic.

    Natural Redesign... I don't like it, but it doesn't seem broken.

    Silent Respite seems okay... Sorta. Needs more details on where they're sent.

    I won't go over the subclasses yet.

    OVERALL THOUGHTS AND WHAT REALLY NEEDS WORK



    Broken Echo needs to be toned down.

    Recovery is utterly borked. Like, totally and utterly borked. A 50/50 chance of regaining a spell point (where spell cost=spell level, not a real spell point) from level 13+ every time you hit is crazy, and at that point, most everything is magical.

    I think you've put a lot of work into this, which is cool! But as it stands... I wouldn't allow this at my table.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    May 2014

    Default Re: The Sigil

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    I am INCREDIBLY leery of the Recovery mechanic. It seems too random to balance a limited-use mechanic.
    I have to agree with this. I mean, a 1st level Sigil stands something like a (crude estimate) 50/50 chance of being able to cast only a single first level spell in an adventuring day containing three short rests, while a 2nd level Sigil can cast a theoretically limitless number depending on the campaign.

    One of the clearest problems I can see is that "Magical creature" isn't a defined term in 5e. Are zombies magical creatures? Dire or giant animals? Mephits? Gnolls? Kobolds? Yuan-ti? Modrons? Elves? There are not-totally-unreasonable arguments for basically all of those, and all could be regular antagonists in a campaign at 2nd level.
    Last edited by Flashy; 2017-10-31 at 11:35 PM.
    My homebrew: A list of 5e homebrew magitech augments found here, a homebrew race of devil-toads here, and the Professional, an all mundane support class. Criticism is much appreciated!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Oct 2017

    Default Re: The Sigil

    Hey thanks for your interest in the class.

    So Broken Echo is actually fine it's comes down to 3 parts.

    First off it has a 30-foot range which is 1/2 the range of counter spell.

    Secondly the creature gets a save unlike counter spell which instantly happens.

    Third you are limited on your use of techniques based on your int modifier and it recovers on a long rest.

    Considering that most wizards tend to be behind a group and this is a d8 class and a caster at that with no plate or shield I believe the risk is there.

    Another stipulation of BE is that your echo can be destroyed, what's more you can only ever have 2 Echo Techniques.


    Heh, yes I really enjoy that reaction heh.

    Okay so as far as spell caster average goes the Keeper has the highest which takes it to within 80% of the sorcerer average.

    It does have nova potential but that's a 10% chance.


    Considering the class does not have extra attack relying on an attack roll you get a 50% chance to regain a chaos point is not broken at all.

    -----

    So some math the number of chaos points at 20th level for this class to equal the spell casting ability of any other full caster (not counting Warlock) would be 108 chaos points. (That's including arcane recovery/sorcery points)

    While this class is a full caster it is purposefully held back on its ability to push out that many points worth in spells.

    -----
    Extra Attack, during development people felt lots of ways about that, it used to be named something else but it was decided on that Extra Attack got the point across... however you can't please everyone.

    -----

    Recovery Die and in my view thematically captured the nature of this class being sort of risky, a series of bad rolls can really mess things up. But that's part of the class and D&D is a team game so when that happens you shouldn't be caught alone.

    -----


    In the end I'll say I think you really did take your time to understand this class a bit, there is already an update that will go live on Thursday if you want to see the changes, some to things like the wording of Chaos Trigger.

    A lot of Chaos Trigger is mistaken for fluff when really its mechanics and yes in ways it is like hex and in other ways it is not. But wait until after Thursday.

    It's sad that you feel that way about the class for me but that's life, I don't believe that Broken Echo will see a change but if you want to convince me then go ahead.

    I've gone over it with a lot of people who are far better at D&D, number crunching and rules lawyering than I am to get it to where it is. So if you raise a position that trumps their collective wisdom I'm all ears.
    Last edited by Arte; 2017-10-31 at 11:51 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Oct 2017

    Default Re: The Sigil

    Quote Originally Posted by Flashy View Post
    I have to agree with this. I mean, a 1st level Sigil stands something like a (crude estimate) 50/50 chance of being able to cast only a single first level spell in an adventuring day containing three short rests, while a 2nd level Sigil can cast a theoretically limitless number depending on the campaign.

    One of the clearest problems I can see is that "Magical creature" isn't a defined term in 5e. Are zombies magical creatures? Dire or giant animals? Mephits? Gnolls? Kobolds? Yuan-ti? Modrons? Elves? There are not-totally-unreasonable arguments for basically all of those, and all could be regular antagonists in a campaign at 2nd level.
    I see where you're coming from, I changed it to monstrosity, spell caster or enchanted creature.

    I'm assuming enchanted is more obvious? A creature that is the under haste or charm or some other spell effect.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Nov 2017

    Default Re: The Sigil

    It looks really fun. I think I may take it for a spin! :)

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Oct 2017

    Default Re: The Sigil

    Quote Originally Posted by cdax View Post
    It looks really fun. I think I may take it for a spin! :)
    Great to hear, the update is coming out tomorrow so hopefully less people will have an issue with it.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2017

    Default Re: The Sigil

    Okay the next update is in. The flavor was added in certain parts as well as some grammatical tweaks all around.

    The update information is available if you have it downloaded already, you can hover the mouse over the little i icon next to download and it shows the change list.

    If you haven't downloaded this class yet then no need to worry about that.

    I'm working on lore still, mostly putting it together in a nice way still.

    Okay enjoy.

    This update mainly addressed some synergies, bringing things into a consistent pattern in what they do and adding some lore.

    I realized that the update information doesn't matter for those who do not have the class already so I do not see a reason to post it here. If you would like it here as well just let me know.
    Check out a class I'm working on: Sigil

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