A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #751
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    I do have to ask: Are we going to be arguing about that one-panel shot of her poisoning her husband for every single page in which Hilgya's appears going forward?

    I stand by what I said earlier: It's early-installment weirdness from when the comic was heavily focused on one-off gags and didn't have as much thought put into it overall. Most of the main characters have similar bits that appear at least a little off back then ("Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion?"); the difference is that Hilgya hasn't appeared since then.

    My advice would be to ignore it and assume it didn't happen unless we get something in the future referencing it, just like you wouldn't treat V as someone who memorizes a spell called "Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion" and just how Haley's "Oops! My top! Tee-hee!" is better seen as an example of how the writing and characterization have improved since then. (Or how the whole reason Hilgya's plot arc happened was because they just sort of forgot Durkon.)
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2017-11-15 at 04:49 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #752
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Just posting pridefully that I called this development completely.

    Found my discord logs on the matter:

    Shashakiro - 08/30/2017
    Anyway, protection is never mentioned in any form, obviously, or I wouldn't have that theory
    Anon401 - 08/30/2017
    i'm sure it'll be done, if it's on the forums, the author is probably like 'hey good idea'
    Shashakiro - 08/30/2017
    I didn't read it on the forums, it's just obvious
    Like it's a very common sort of writing trope, that random fling you had that you totally forgot about coming back to haunt you in the form of a baby
    Hell Dragon Age has it too, with dwarves, even
    It would also probably surprise most people despite what I said
    Just because the encounter was so long ago and so forgettable
    I mean also she's been conspicuously absent given that she's a surviving original member of the linear guild
    The other people with that description have done a lot of things in between then and now
    Anon401 - 08/30/2017
    it is a common trope, yeah
    Shashakiro - 08/30/2017
    of the original 6, one (kobold) died in the dungeon, 2 of them (nale and zzdtri) featured heavily in and died in Tarquin's arc about 850 strips later, 1 (thog) had a climactic like 5 page long battle with Roy 700 strips later, and 1 (sabine) also did a lot of stuff in between
    And then you have the 1 who is still alive, never been heard from, and had sex with durkon
    (also never been mentioned)
    At least someone would have made a joke about it or something if the author wasn't explicitly trying to invoke the "surprise baby 1100 strips after the fling" trope
    Anyway

  3. - Top - End - #753
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a1chemi View Post
    You should totally pick up Start of Darkness. In addition to giving insight into Redcloak's motivations (and just being excellent...and supporting Rich) you get a look at the darker side of the Sapphire Guards history.

    They were pretty brutal, and I don't think non-violent goblins would have meant anything to them.
    Yeah, Grey Wolf already convinced me on another thread but I'm having technical difficulties : Gumroad say it cannot check my credit card infos. The bizarre thing is that Wikipedia has the same problem but other sites do not. I went tomy bank and everything was in order so that's infuriating.
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  4. - Top - End - #754
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Like many of you, I am still thinking about this comic after the big reveal is 1105. One of the reasons it is so memorable is that nothing like it has ever happened in one of the rpg's that I have played. Just like V's divorce, the Giant does an amazing job of weaving "real world" effects into a fantasy world, and that is rarely handled as well. It is hard to find authenticity in most fiction, let alone a webcomic based on and outdated rule system of a rpg
    Last edited by elros; 2017-11-15 at 01:30 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #755
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Well, i'm eating Humble Pie. With a side of crow.

  6. - Top - End - #756
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by blunk View Post
    Welcome to the OOTS forum, where discussing the comic in a comic discussion thread is considered "kinda off-topic."
    Ooh. Can I sig this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Manty5 View Post
    They're actually wagering G P's from monster-san's scrabble stash.
    See what I quoted here: Quotes from Fyraltari
    Also this post from Fyraltari.
    See this post from Mortsdeer.

  7. - Top - End - #757
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a1chemi View Post
    [...] a look at the darker side of the Sapphire Guards history. They were pretty brutal [...]
    Acausal loops can lead to some odd moral consequences. Look at Terminator, for instance: from the humans' point of view SkyNet turned on them and they had to defend themselves. But from SkyNet's point of view it was brought into existence and humans were immediately trying to kill it so it fought back in self-defence. Who's right? Well, both, or neither ... I think.

    Something similar happens with the Sapphire guard and the goblins. The goblins think they've just been attacked for no reason, and plot their revenge. The Sapphire Guard know that the goblins have been prophesied to destroy Azure City and perhaps the world, and are understandably willing to cut corners if there's any chance they can prevent at least the worst consequences. Who's right? Possibly neither? It's hard to say.
    I prepared Comic Sans today.

  8. - Top - End - #758
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperatorV View Post
    ...Well. That was unexpected.

    Seriously, Durkon had an illegitimate kid? I don't think anyone guessed that one.
    I had assumed D&D world had efficient contraception and abortion, as otherwise a lawful good character like Durkon wouldn't have sex without the intent to give up adventuring and be a father. Well, seems I guessed wrong. He obviously didn't use contraception.

    I really would have expected better of him. But since he now is the person he was on his worst day permanently, it is kinda fitting that his past misdeeds catch up with him.

    I wonder what her opinion on the OOtS' plans is. If she was onboard with killing Durkon, would she call it "murder"? (Might be a card-carrying villain trait, of course) She might be planning to protect him.
    Last edited by Themrys; 2017-11-15 at 08:33 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #759
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Twenty pages of discussion on wether murdering an innocent loving person in cold blood is or not a bad action, I can't believe it.

    So this is just me and maybe I'm missing something, but does anybody else find it weird how after so long and despite her views (and her possibly now being an outcast for what she's done?) she's still wearing the clan's armor?

    I'm also with those who say the baby is not an holy symbol or a combatant or she's trying to kill him or whatever and she didn't expect having to fight.
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  10. - Top - End - #760
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    *Looks at thread*

    Are ... are we seriously arguing that Hilgya was in any way justified in trying to kill a husband who, at least on-panel, had never been anything but thoughtful and considerate?

    This is not an argument I wish to have.

    Also, a key thing to keep in mind was that the Linear Guild was made up of evil opposites of OOTS. Nale was LE, Elan was CG. Roy was LG, Thog was CE. Even Belkar had an LG opposite who was a kobold.

    So: At the time of her appearance, I have no doubts whatsoever that Hilgya was CE, and this is why Durkon was unable to make a relationship work with her. He was the soul of duty and horrified by her attempted murder, while she would never allow duty or tradition or moral scruples to stand in the way of her desires and dreams.

    I concede it is possible that Hilgya has undergone an alignment shift since then, but the way she speaks blithely of murdering the father of her child sort of implies not. I suppose it's possible that she's CN if she's been running, say , an orphanage for charity cases to offset the murdering, but it seems unlikely.

    At any rate, I am 95% convinced Hilgya is CE, as she was on first introduction, with a 5% chance of CN.

    Question: Is it possible that, when Hilgya said "Turn undead!" , she was lying? Does she have to call out the name of her action, and does that action have to be what she's really doing?

    Summary: Evidence for Hilgya being CE is that she was Durkon's opposite in the original , she attempted to murder her husband and was unrepentent about it, and wants to murder Durkon now. Evidence AGAINST her being CE is that she said "turn undead" at this point in the story.

    I don't consider the evidence against to be very strong. I'd be more interested in looking for alternate mechanical explanations before concluding an alignment shift must have happened -- unless more evidence is entered into the record.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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  11. - Top - End - #761
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    That, good sir, was masterful.
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  12. - Top - End - #762
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    I really love the authenticity of a dwarven mother carrying her baby into battle. From Dwarf Fortress I learned that carrying babies into battle has numerous benefits, first of course the baby can be used as an ablative shield, even though it can't take much damage being small and squishy the enemy may still target the baby instead of the mother, during which time the mother gets the chance to crush the enemy's skull instead of having her arm chopped off. Secondly the baby is capable of pummeling the enemy with it's tiny fists, grappling and of most value, biting, the chompers of a dwarf baby are not to be underestimated. Finally, the inevitable death of babies helps harden up the mother, father and even other dwarves who witness the death of the baby.
    Last edited by Panandaro; 2017-11-15 at 09:07 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #763
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Yeah, Grey Wolf already convinced me on another thread.
    I did? huh. One never expects one's random recommendations to be heeded.

    Quote Originally Posted by elros View Post
    Like many of you, I am still thinking about this comic after the big reveal is 1105. One of the reasons it is so memorable is that nothing like it has ever happened in one of the rpg's that I have played.
    It wasn't "an old flame coming back with an unexpected baby", but Lufia 2 (Rise of the Sinistrals) does have the two main characters marrying and, IIRC, having a child half-way through the game. But yes, such developments are few and far between, but I think mostly because parents do not appreciate their 12 year old suddenly wondering where the baby came from. It is one of the weirdest things of modern culture that violence is everywhere, but sex and pregnancy is not. My theory is that it is due to violence being so rare in everyday life (for upper middle class in rich countries, anyway) that it can be glorified as a quasi-mythological "thing" that no longer "really" happens (significant denial of the realities of the world is involved, of course).

    Quote Originally Posted by sillymel View Post
    Ooh. Can I sig this?
    sillymel, if you are not aware, you may want to look into the Long Signature thread to extend your ability to store all these quotes you are enjoying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chei View Post
    The annoying thing about GITP's Ignore function is that people who feed the trolls keep quoting them.
    From a technical perspective, I can't imagine how else it could be implemented. Besides, even if I have given up on reading a given poster, I still enjoy others taking a stab at it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  14. - Top - End - #764
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    sillymel, if you are not aware, you may want to look into the Long Signature thread to extend your ability to store all these quotes you are enjoying.
    Thanks! I was looking for that!
    Quote Originally Posted by Manty5 View Post
    They're actually wagering G P's from monster-san's scrabble stash.
    See what I quoted here: Quotes from Fyraltari
    Also this post from Fyraltari.
    See this post from Mortsdeer.

  15. - Top - End - #765
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Are ... are we seriously arguing that Hilgya was in any way justified in trying to kill a husband who, at least on-panel, had never been anything but thoughtful and considerate?
    Are you kidding? That man was everything but thoughtful and considerate.

    He agreed to marry her while a crossbow was pointed at her.

    Not considerate. And as for toughtful, he might have been genuinely too stupid to notice that she was forced to marry him and hated him, but you definitely cannot claim that he did any thinking.

    He agreed to marry a woman who was clearly being forced to marry him, in a patriarchal society where he well knew she'd lose all, or almost all her rights the moment she became his wife (i.e. property). Just how heavily patriarchal the society portrayed there is is evidenced by the fact that this marriage is considered lawful. In a civilised country, the crossbow pointed at her would have rendered the marriage null and void.

    The author may have chosen to portray that man as goofy idiot who didn't know what was going on, but this characterisation just doesn't make any sense. Unless Hilgya's husband is intended to be portrayed as mentally disabled, he would have noticed that she was forced to marry him, (and therefore could have refused) and if he was really so nice and considerate, he'd have given her all the dowry money he got from her parents and let her join an adventuring party, no need for her to attempt to poison him.
    If he was genuinely disabled and unaware of what was going on, he might not have helped her escape, but would not have hindered her, either, in which case running away would have been much easier than trying to overcome that annoying poison resistance.

    In any realistic story, a man who agreed to marry a woman who was clearly being forced to marry him, would not be a nice goofy dude, so it is no surprise that some readers just don't believe he is this nice goofy dude.

    The only realistic versions here are:

    - What we saw on-screen is all true and Hilgya's husband was happy to keep her like a slave (remember, she was forced to marry him, that is only possible in countries that consider women property of males) but wanted to feel good about himself and therefore strived to be "nice", while still keeping her imprisoned and oppressed.

    - Hilgya is lying and not everything we saw did actually happen.


    You can claim that this dude is nice and considerate until you are blue in the face, it still won't make any sense, unless you claim that Hilgya is lying and in that case, it is well possible that nothing of what she said was true, and she didn't ever try to poison someone. She could just have invented it to give herself a tragic backstory!
    Last edited by Themrys; 2017-11-15 at 09:35 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #766
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    WHAM!

    And what a great (belated) birthday present. Thanks, Giant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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  17. - Top - End - #767
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post

    The author may have chosen to portray that man as goofy idiot who didn't know what was going on, but this characterisation just doesn't make any sense. Unless Hilgya's husband is intended to be portrayed as mentally disabled, he would have noticed that she was forced to marry him, (and therefore could have refused) and if he was really so nice and considerate, he'd have given her all the dowry money he got from her parents and let her join an adventuring party, no need for her to attempt to poison him.

    In any realistic story, a man who agreed to marry a woman who was clearly being forced to marry him, would not be a nice goofy dude, so it is no surprise that some readers just don't believe he is this nice goofy dude.

    The only realistic versions here are:

    - What we saw on-screen is all true and Hilgya's husband was happy to keep her like a slave (remember, she was forced to marry him, that is only possible in countries that consider women property of males) but wanted to feel good about himself and therefore strived to be "nice", while still keeping her imprisoned and oppressed.

    - Hilgya is lying and not everything we saw did actually happen.
    The Giant has already said something on the subject:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post

    I can't believe I have to be specific about this, but no, their marriage was never consummated and he probably was completely unaware that she was forced into it (because he is not very smart or perceptive, obviously). And one could have extrapolated that fact if one thought for one moment about what the obvious intended joke of the scene was, which was to contrast Ivan's pleasant personality with Hilgya's exaggerated and inaccurate description.
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  18. - Top - End - #768
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    He agreed to marry her while a crossbow was pointed at her.
    Why are you assuming that he wasn't as forced into this as she was? In arranged marriages, the bride and groom might be consulted, but they don't make the decision. Ivan may have been willing, but there is no reason to think he was in a position to give consent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  19. - Top - End - #769
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The Giant has already said something on the subject:
    I can't say I find that particularly convincing. As I pointed out, being that stupid would constitute a disability.

    Which would mean that not only dwarf culture allows forcing women to marry, (and considers such a marriage valid) it also allows men who are unable to give informed consent to marry. Meaning that not only this culture oppresses women, it also doesn't much care about the safety of mentally disabled people.

    There's no way to take away the horrible implications of this scene.

    Actually, not even if we assume that Hilgya completely invented the story, because she told Durkon she was forced to marry, and instead of saying "Wait what, this isn't lawful!" he reminded her of "her duty". So no matter how we interpret it, that scene implies that dwarves consider it okay to force people to marry.

    I think it is best to forget about that particular part of the comic, really.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    In any realistic story
    Here's your problem.

    OOTS is not realistic, it's over-the-top comedy. Ivan is not disabled, just comic-dumb.
    Last edited by hroşila; 2017-11-15 at 09:49 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Which would mean that not only dwarf culture allows forcing women to marry, (and considers such a marriage valid) it also allows men who are unable to give informed consent to marry.
    Again you display the assumption that Dwarven culture requires the consent (informed or otherwise) of either party to marry. That is not a thing that happened in arranged marriages, and therefore not a thing that we'd need to expect here. Ivan was told "you are getting married today, be sure to wear something nice", and he went through with it, because Duty and not wanting to end in Hel's clutches. Then tried his best to make his wife happy with the arrangement, and all he got for his troubles was murder attempts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Even Belkar had an LG opposite who was a kobold.
    Er, wtf. Only possible candidate for THAT position was the Inigo Montoya knockoff who joined at the same time that Nale was committing mass murder and who explicitly stated that he didn't care what the linear guild was doing as long as he got his shot at Belkar. Taking revenge against someone for killing a relative does not speak to the avenger's alignment on the Good-Evil axis... or Redcloak would be turning undead instead of rebuking them, eh? No, even THAT kobold maxxes out at neutral, and there's no actual good evidence that he was neutral, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    So: At the time of her appearance, I have no doubts whatsoever that Hilgya was CE, and this is why Durkon was unable to make a relationship work with her. He was the soul of duty and horrified by her attempted murder.
    IF you read the strip in question, his lecture to her was ENTIRELY about duty and not about attempted murder. So their differences are primarily along the Lawful/Chaos axis and not necessarily Good/Evil (or at the very least that axis got short shrift).

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Summary: Evidence for Hilgya being CE is that she was Durkon's opposite in the original , she attempted to murder her husband and was unrepentent about it, and wants to murder Durkon now. Evidence AGAINST her being CE is that she said "turn undead" at this point in the story.
    I don't know how to break it to you, but right now ROY wants to "murder" Durkon. Is he evil, too? It's all in how you interpret "murder" in this context... and UNLIKE "Turn Undead", "murder Durkon" actually IS open to interpretation here.

    And the evidence AGAINST her being CE that you so blithely dismiss is pretty important, actually. There is no justification for Rich misrepresenting her abilities as the opposite of what they are, so she has turn undead and not rebuke undead, and that's actually a big difference. Moreover, it makes up 100% of the evidence that's not 12 years old at this point.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    I can't say I find that particularly convincing. As I pointed out, being that stupid would constitute a disability.

    Which would mean that not only dwarf culture allows forcing women to marry, (and considers such a marriage valid) it also allows men who are unable to give informed consent to marry. Meaning that not only this culture oppresses women, it also doesn't much care about the safety of mentally disabled people.

    There's no way to take away the horrible implications of this scene.

    Actually, not even if we assume that Hilgya completely invented the story, because she told Durkon she was forced to marry, and instead of saying "Wait what, this isn't lawful!" he reminded her of "her duty". So no matter how we interpret it, that scene implies that dwarves consider it okay to force people to marry.

    I think it is best to forget about that particular part of the comic, really.
    Points conceded. But was murdering him really the best, only possible way out of that situation? I'm thinking of Princess Aravis in Lewis' The Horse and His Boy. I'm thinking of accounts of American slaves and slaveowners. If you're in a situation like that, there are often other ways to freedom besides murdering the guy -- especially, as has already been pointed out, that the most we can accuse him of is being part of dwarf culture and not being bright enough to question it.

    Although the story still would have broken her relationship with Durkon. Durkon, as said, was the soul of duty. If his family had commanded him to marry a block of wood, I'm convinced he'd be right up there at the altar next to it, shedding tears on the inside all the time, Dwarf-fully doing his duty. Burying down his own thoughts and desires for the good of clan and family.

    There's no way Hilgya would ever be happy with a Dwarf like that. It's a pity they made a child together BEFORE coming to this realization. One reason why it's good to wait on jumping in the sack with someone until you know at least a minimal amount about them!

    Quote Originally Posted by Manty5
    I don't know how to break it to you, but right now ROY wants to "murder" Durkon. Is he evil, too? It's all in how you interpret "murder" in this context... and UNLIKE "Turn Undead", "murder Durkon" actually IS open to interpretation here.
    "Murder" in quotes for two reasons: First, you can't murder something that's already dead. Second, because as Roy has realized, that's not Durkon at all. It's something piloting his corpse around. Dispatching the thief and restoring the stolen property (i.e. Durkon's body) to Durkon is a very LG action, not to mention killing an enemy who is out to destroy the entire world. I think that last fact alone would allow justification as self-defense.

    Perhaps I'm reading too much into the scene, but the choice of words leads me to believe Hilgya would be just as happy killing living Durkon without provocation. And that's the difference between G and E in OOTS world: Good kills to protect the lives of self and others from foes who are immune to reason. Evil kills when angered or provoked , and is often totally disproportionate to the original offense.

    Possibly further strips will change this viewpoint. But that is the way I see it now.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2017-11-15 at 10:07 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Manty5 View Post
    Er, wtf. Only possible candidate for THAT position was the Inigo Montoya knockoff who joined at the same time that Nale was committing mass murder and who explicitly stated that he didn't care what the linear guild was doing as long as he got his shot at Belkar. Taking revenge against someone for killing a relative does not speak to the avenger's alignment on the Good-Evil axis... or Redcloak would be turning undead instead of rebuking them, eh? No, even THAT kobold maxxes out at neutral, and there's no actual good evidence that he was neutral, either.
    The Giant did say that he was "noble in the company of villains" in War & XPs commentary.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    And the evidence AGAINST her being CE that you so blithely dismiss is pretty important, actually. There is no justification for Rich misrepresenting her abilities as the opposite of what they are, so she has turn undead and not rebuke undead, and that's actually a big difference. Moreover, it makes up 100% of the evidence that's not 12 years old at this point.
    Perhaps becoming a mother was a step in her making a change in alignment ... we'll see as the next few strips re-introduce us to Hilgya. (Becoming a father certainly got me to be a more responsible person ...)
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Why are you assuming that he wasn't as forced into this as she was? In arranged marriages, the bride and groom might be consulted, but they don't make the decision. Ivan may have been willing, but there is no reason to think he was in a position to give consent.
    I already pointed out that yes, he cannot be considered able to give informed consent.

    The implications for dwarf culture are not nice.

    But that interpretation doesn't make much sense, as if he clearly didn't hinder Hilgya from just walking out of the door, doing just that would have been her most logical course of action.

    Perhaps she will now be portrayed as a female version of Tarquin - that would really be the only way to give some plausibility to her actions. A character like Tarquin would try to poison a spouse just because poison is more evil than, say, pushing them off a cliff, and returning at the most dramatic moment to reveal that the character who was up to then believed to be the most moral of the group has an illegitimate child, would also be something Tarqin would approve of.


    If I were the author I would just retcon Hilgya's backstory and Durkon's reaction to it, as it seems at odds with how dwarf culture is portrayed by now.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    I already pointed out that yes, he cannot be considered able to give informed consent.

    The implications for dwarf culture are not nice.

    But that interpretation doesn't make much sense, as if he clearly didn't hinder Hilgya from just walking out of the door, doing just that would have been her most logical course of action.

    Perhaps she will now be portrayed as a female version of Tarquin - that would really be the only way to give some plausibility to her actions. A character like Tarquin would try to poison a spouse just because poison is more evil than, say, pushing them off a cliff, and returning at the most dramatic moment to reveal that the character who was up to then believed to be the most moral of the group has an illegitimate child, would also be something Tarqin would approve of.


    If I were the author I would just retcon Hilgya's backstory and Durkon's reaction to it, as it seems at odds with how dwarf culture is portrayed by now.
    The whole point of the joke there is that Hilgya is neither logical nor reasonable. I think any assumptions that involve Hilgya taking the best possible course of action the first time are starting from a flawed premise.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    I already pointed out that yes, he cannot be considered able to give informed consent.
    Sure, but there is a major difference between "he is mentally disabled" and "he is a bit unobservant, but otherwise fully capable of giving consent, but unfortunately, said consent was never required or expected".

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    The implications for dwarf culture are not nice.
    Oh, I'm sorry, is anyone arguing that dwarven culture is nice? They literally were given the short end of the stick, forced to risk their souls to eternal punishment if they don't die honorably, and thus as a defensive reaction created a culture where honor is supreme, because there is nothing else they can do about it. Their culture is horrific, and they have no way out, but that's the way it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    But that interpretation doesn't make much sense, as if he clearly didn't hinder Hilgya from just walking out of the door, doing just that would have been her most logical course of action.
    This is such a jump from what I was saying that I fail to see why you think "stop saying he agreed to the wedding" has anything to do with "he didn't stop her from leaving".

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    f I were the author I would just retcon Hilgya's backstory and Durkon's reaction to it, as it seems at odds with how dwarf culture is portrayed by now.
    Ah, yes, the "I can write better than the successful author" defence. By all means, present evidence of such a grandiose, self-acclamation praise. Do tell me, what books have you written, that I may compare in the quality of their storytelling to OotS so I can independently verify your self-assurance.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    "Murder" in quotes for two reasons: First, you can't murder something that's already dead. Second, because as Roy has realized, that's not Durkon at all.
    Irrelevant, there is just no way that Hilgya learned that the exact place and time someone needed help murdering durkon WITHOUT learning why they wanted to murder Durkon. So your points either apply to BOTH her and Roy, or neither of them.

    Also, "Murder" is yet another Law/Chaos point: "Murder" literally means the unlawful killing of a person, as opposed to just killing.

    We'd agree more if you paid at least as much attention to the Law/Chaos axis as you do the Good/Evil one. I know that in contemporary society, we're programmed to pay more attention to G/E than L/C, but D&D is not contemporary society.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    You're saying I made no death threats to people here? Awww, that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me!

    1- No, but then the fault is transferred to those that are denying your rights, at least for murders (or other acts) meant to stop said oppression.
    Ok stop right there. You've said multiple times that you're not just trolling, that this is in fact your personal worldview. In that case I have to rise to the bait, even if it is a troll, because there are other people (kids) reading this, who may be swayed by your rhetoric.

    Every person - you - are responsible for your own actions REGARDLESS OF EXTERNAL FORCES Fault never transfers. Yes, even with a crossbow to the back (or gun to the head). This mindset "My life is unbearable: I'm going out and taking as many with me as possible" is precisely the mindset of the Northern California shooter, the Texas Church shooter, or even the NY car killer. And that's all in the last month, let alone going back to Vegas. Yes, I have no way of knowing what they really would have said was their reasons, since they all died, but the idea that it is ever right to kill someone beyond an immediate threat to life from that person (to you or others) is the most heinous, solipsistic, ego-centric, sociopathological … I run out of adjectives.

    There are always options - I spend a good bit of time training to give myself additional options for a physical confrontation, but at it's most basic, taking another's life removes all future options for that person, for the world. You talk about "oppression" as a very great evil. I think perhaps you see it as dehumanizing, removing from you (or rather, the oppressed party) the things that make us human (to spell it out). In that way, you are showing great empathy for that individual. Then, you turn around and suggest, nay, say that it is justified to completely dehumanize many more individuals in response, for what is more dehumanizing that to have all your options removed - no possibility of acting, since you are now dead. Do you not see the hypocrisy?

    Sometimes your options are very limited - and this is a great evil. But to turn over responsibility for your own actions to others is not a great act of bravery or freedom fighting - it is the last act of a broken person, and is quite sad, regardless of what pain they may then bring to others, after that.

    To take it back down into the comic, what if Ivan goes on to realize what a horribly oppressive culture he is a part of, and ends up being the one to lead reforms? In that scenario, how much future oppression might Hylda enabled if she had succeeded in poisoning him?

    In the real world, there has been, and continues to be, much evil and oppression. Many people, most people, really, have succumbed to the pressures and gone along with such regimes. The few who despite such oppression overcome and move on to impact the world are the greatest heros, not those who try to burn it all down.

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