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  1. - Top - End - #1321
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    I'm curious if I got this right. There's a 40 page debate going on which at it's core revolves around:
    "I like character X, so X can't be evil, because... umm... my mommy said that was bad I guess?!". Sided with a bit of "Y must be Evil because I really don't like Y! There's no way a Good character could be someone I'd detest".
    Ummm... no. It's more like "if OotS was the Handmaid's Tale, Hilgya would be perfectly moral in murdering her husband." "But it's not the Handmaid's Tale" "I have decided it is, therefore it is"

    GW
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  2. - Top - End - #1322
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    What is that XP going into, though? It might seem cute now, but taking levels of Baby is just going to hurt his progression in the long term.
    Baby levels are OP, never getting attacked by anyone and always some how survived any accident. You even get proficiency with rattles and a cohort that feeds, protects and changes you. So strong. Much stronger than the angst powers that teenager levels get you or tax paying ability adulthood gets you.
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  3. - Top - End - #1323
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    The Baby class gets Charm Person as an innate ability, although it always has a chance to fail due to the class' inability to control its own bodily fluids.

  4. - Top - End - #1324
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Ummm... no. It's more like "if OotS was the Handmaid's Tale, Hilgya would be perfectly moral in murdering her husband." "But it's not the Handmaid's Tale" "I have decided it is, therefore it is"

    GW
    You mean it's not The Handmaid's Tale?

    Wow, that clears up a lot of questions I had about it. At first I thought "Wow, this is a terrible webcomic adaption" but now everything makes sense.
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  5. - Top - End - #1325
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 8BitNinja View Post
    You mean it's not The Handmaid's Tale?

    Wow, that clears up a lot of questions I had about it. At first I thought "Wow, this is a terrible webcomic adaption" but now everything makes sense.
    It's Les Misérables obviously, what with the arbitrary enprisonment, the gratuitously evil criminals, the doomed revolt and the fanatical enforcer devoted to a twisted perversion of justice.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2017-11-18 at 02:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  6. - Top - End - #1326
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    It's Les Misérables obviously, what with the arbitrary enprisonment, the gratuitously evil criminals, the doomed revolt and the fanatical enforcer devoted to a twisted perversion of justice.
    No, it's obviously a darker and edgier version of The Very Hungry Caterpillar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  7. - Top - End - #1327
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, it's obviously a darker and edgier version of The Very Hungry Caterpillar.

    GW
    ... so HUNGRY

    *shudders*

    HE was just... So hungry...
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

  8. - Top - End - #1328
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, it's obviously a darker and edgier version of The Very Hungry Caterpillar.

    GW
    Did someone say darker and edgier version of the Very Hungry worm? I will just leave this here
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  9. - Top - End - #1329
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_McSurly View Post
    May I please quote this in my forum signature?
    your welcome :)

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    Last edited by schmunzel; 2017-11-18 at 03:37 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #1330
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, it's obviously a darker and edgier version of The Very Hungry Caterpillar.

    GW
    This, just this. I thought it was The Monster at the End of This Book, (should apply for what half the cast?) but this is just awesome, thanks.
    Last edited by goodpeople25; 2017-11-18 at 03:37 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by schmunzel View Post
    your welcome :)

    sch
    Thank you!
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    It's great to see the return of a character that been absent in the story for so long.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, it's obviously a darker and edgier version of The Very Hungry Caterpillar.

    GW
    Is that even possible?
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

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  14. - Top - End - #1334
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    Is that even possible?
    There is a (probably mythical) story I read once (probably an essay by Asimov, although I can't track it down right now) about this Hollywood producer who would reduce every script that arrived at his desk into either "Cinderella" or "Sleeping Beauty". He would accept the former and reject the latter.

    By which I mean, if you are willing to be reductionist enough, every story can be said to be a retelling of another, and the simpler the latter, the easier that is. With that in mind, I could make a very decent case that most zombie stories are "darker and edgier" retellings of "The Very Hungry Caterpillar". And no, I don't mean the zombies. Almost every zombie story is not really about the zombies, but of how a small group of humans, forced into isolation, inevitably turns on itself and forges a new group identity (or dies trying). This narrative structure goes at least as far as Romero. The initial group gorges in its environment, and develops into something new, just like tVHC, except with more gore and moping.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2017-11-18 at 09:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  15. - Top - End - #1335
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    By which I mean, if you are willing to be reductionist enough, every story can be said to be a retelling of another
    I'm just gonna leave this here.

    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2017-12-10 at 08:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  16. - Top - End - #1336
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    By which I mean, if you are willing to be reductionist enough, every story can be said to be a retelling of another, and the simpler the latter, the easier that is.
    Grey Wolf
    This is what drove one of my creative writing teachers to start the semester with "There are no fully original stories." on the blackboard and then pointed to it and said. "Now that this is out of the way and we all accept this - for the duration of the class - and move on, welcome to my class. I want you all to stop worrying about whether or not it's original and start worrying about whether it's the story you want to tell."

  17. - Top - End - #1337
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Ummm... no. It's more like "if OotS was the Handmaid's Tale, Hilgya would be perfectly moral in murdering her husband." "But it's not the Handmaid's Tale" "I have decided it is, therefore it is"

    GW
    It did start as "Hilgya is evil so Rich must have hand-waved her using turn undead". I think the fact that she believed murdering her husband was justified, and sometimes neutral characters try to kill people (See V and Explosive Runes, Gannji and Enor, etc) covers that.

    Moral or otherwise depends more on how much credit you lend to each flashback, and the lack of information given, vs. Hilya's words.

    We are not likely to get more information until she meets Durkon, if the Giant brings the topic up at all.
    Last edited by a1chemi; 2017-11-19 at 02:12 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #1338
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    There's also the "Hilgya was evil and isn't now" theory.
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  19. - Top - End - #1339
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    There's also the "Hilgya was evil and isn't now" theory.
    She dropped her husband when he got in the way of what she wanted, she might well have dropped Loki if she decided her god's in between her and Durkon.

  20. - Top - End - #1340
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    d20 Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Manty5 View Post
    She dropped her husband when he got in the way of what she wanted, she might well have dropped Loki if she decided her god's in between her and Durkon.
    She was forced to marry her husband, so she didn't "drop" him. She got away from a bad situation. Presumably she was not forced to become a cleric of Loki.

    Her armor is similar to her original appearance which vaguely suggest she is still a cleric of Loki, and the reference to fire in the title of the comic suggests the same.

    Loki could easily be chaotic neutral, based on his position to "give these entertaining little buggers one more chance, and bein a god of chaos it makes sense not to pick a side in good vs. evil.

  21. - Top - End - #1341
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Given that Thor wants to "smite Loki for his wicked ways" (before they are both distracted by Hilgya and Durkon) back in Dungeon Crawling Fools - I like the notion that Loki is "evil but on the same side as the Order in this" . It continues the theme of subverting traditional "good vs evil" conflict.
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  22. - Top - End - #1342
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Also, SoD said that
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    "several of the older evil gods" defended the Dark One, with Loki and Tiamat being pictured.

    So there was not a lot of wiggle room there. As hamishpence alluded to, the gods didn't vote along alignment lines in the Godsmoot.
    ungelic is us

  23. - Top - End - #1343
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a1chemi View Post
    It did start as "Hilgya is evil so Rich must have hand-waved her using turn undead". I think the fact that she believed murdering her husband was justified
    Two problems with that:
    1) "She thought it was justified" is completely irrelevant. Xykon thinks all his murders are justified ("He had a cool crown that'd make me look real badass"). Even Belkar might think his murders are justified "I was bored, and killing random NPC made me less bored"). The individual thinking a murder they committed is justified is NOT how Evil/Not Evil can be judged (in fact, I'd say that only Good people wonder if a given murder might not have been justified)

    2) Given that no-one has ever disputed that Neutral people can murder, whether Hilgya is Evil or Neutral does not come into the "Handmaiden" discussion at all.

    So, "This" (and by this I mean the endless posts from Luna and The Weirdo) does really come down to the affirmation on their part that murdering your husband is always justified if you are in an arranged marriage, because it would have been in Handmaid's Tale, even though, as far as I saw, neither justified that arranged marriages in OotS can even be compared to those in HT (other than Luna's ludicrous "offering a foot massage once can be extrapolated to all the time, and I unilaterally declare that to be a sexual advance in every situation ever because I don't like people touching me")

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  24. - Top - End - #1344
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    So, "This" (and by this I mean the endless posts from Luna and The Weirdo) does really come down to the affirmation on their part that murdering your husband is always justified if you are in an arranged marriage
    You, sir, are misrepresenting that position.

    My position was, clearly, that it's okay (or, for innocents, the oppressor's fault) to murder ANYTHING when you're under ANY sort of oppression, until you no longer are, at which point you still get to murder (or, really, do what you wish to) your former oppressors for revenge.

    How dare you, sir, how dare you misrepresent that opinion that way? That is a strawman if I've ever seen one.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2017-11-19 at 10:36 AM.
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    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

  25. - Top - End - #1345
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    You, sir, are misrepresenting that position.

    My position was, clearly, that it's okay to murder ANYTHING when you're under ANY sort of oppression, until you no longer are, at which point you still get to murder (or, really, do what you wish to) your former oppressors for revenge.

    How dare you, sir, how dare you misrepresent that opinion that way?
    Define "oppression". If one is not careful, this would excuse murder even for the most trivial of circumstances . . . there is a broad gulf between "oppression" being something one doesn't like, and being a systematic state of affairs designed to break a spirit so theyare compliant. Even the dictionary definition is rather . . . vague . . . and allows one to claim "oppression" for a great many cases of the world. One interesting interpretation, check out "The Trees" by Rush.

    It would be quite amusing, if it wasn't frightening to think people consider it a valid reason to kill me for whatever they consider "oppression". There's a very real, very concerning case which can be made here to make murder . . . permissible . . . for anything. Once we reach that point, well, it becomes reasonable to consider it a "pre-emptive strike" to simply kill anyone one would meet.
    Last edited by Kereminde; 2017-11-19 at 10:41 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #1346
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kereminde View Post
    Define "oppression". If one is not careful, this would excuse murder even for the most trivial of circumstances . . . there is a broad gulf between "oppression" being something one doesn't like, and being a systematic state of affairs designed to break a spirit so theyare compliant. Even the dictionary definition is rather . . . vague . . . and allows one to claim "oppression" for a great many cases of the world. One interesting interpretation, check out "The Trees" by Rush.

    It would be quite amusing, if it wasn't frightening to think people consider it a valid reason to kill me for whatever they consider "oppression". There's a very real, very concerning case which can be made here to make murder . . . permissible . . . for anything. Once we reach that point, well, it becomes reasonable to consider it a "pre-emptive strike" to simply kill anyone one would meet.
    Oh, I did say was. My position changed via the debate. I was just correcting GW re: his representation of that opinion, that's all.

    Edit: Kereminde, on that note, I must congratulate you on your definition of oppression. I mean it.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2017-11-19 at 10:52 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    You, sir, are misrepresenting that position.

    My position was, clearly, that it's okay (or, for innocents, the oppressor's fault) to murder ANYTHING when you're under ANY sort of oppression, until you no longer are, at which point you still get to murder (or, really, do what you wish to) your former oppressors for revenge.

    How dare you, sir, how dare you misrepresent that opinion that way? That is a strawman if I've ever seen one.
    Well, your actual position would result in the total extermination of humanity at best, so downplaying it a bit seems appropriate.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    Well, your actual position would result in the total extermination of humanity at best, so downplaying it a bit seems appropriate.
    Oh, it would be unstable... But total extermination? Now, now, you're being a tad melodramatic, are you not? Likely just some 90%, tops.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    Oh, it would be unstable... But total extermination? Now, now, you're being a tad melodramatic, are you not? Likely just some 90%, tops.
    I see. It's worse than I thought.
    You are an optimist.
    "If it lives it can be killed.
    If it is dead it can be eaten."

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    Default Re: OOTS #1105 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantaki View Post
    I see. It's worse than I thought.
    You are an optimist.
    As the Magic: the Gathering card Gamble says: When you've got nothing, you might as well trade it for something else.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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