SpellSword

[The UnderKing]

I would like to know what makes the best Fighter/Mage. I know of a couple paths (DuskBlade, SpellSword, etc..) Just what's the best? (I know there has been MANY theards like this but I couldn't find anything that really helped me) A guide of some kind would be good. (on this forum or any other site) Thanks in advance!!!

[Zincorium]

Well, what you're looking for is commonly known as a 'Gish', the WotC optimization boards tend to have a lot of advice on how to make a somewhat difficult task easier. Here is a good start.

Personally, what I'd recommend is 2 wizard (or sorceror)/4 fighter/5 abjurant champion/9 Swiftblade from WotC's site (the new one) or Knight phantom from the same place. Knight phantom gives more spellcasting, swiftblade makes your buffs better, and abjurant champion (complete mage) is like crack for a gish, never give up levels of it. Your mileage may vary, Duskblade is a much better out-of-the-box class that works.

As far as playstyle goes, realize that while the melee combat side of things doesn't help your casting much, the reverse is definitely the case. Focus on self buffs and utility spells rather than the typical batman loadout and you should be fine.

[kpenguin]

Well, what you're looking for is commonly known as a 'Gish', the WotC optimization boards tend to have a lot of advice on how to make a somewhat difficult task easier.

According to my Monster Manual, a githyanki that multiclasses is called a 'gish'. Is that where the term comes from?

[Zincorium]

According to my Monster Manual, a githyanki that multiclasses is called a 'gish'. Is that where the term comes from?

Yep, been around since at least early 2nd edition (possibly earlier, that's the first game I heard it in, though.)


But yeah, it was a lot easier in 2nd where you were, say, a 7th warrior/ 8th mage instead of a 8th level fighter or 9th level mage (numbers not exact, it's been a while since I dug out my old 2nd ed books) for the same experience.

As it is, you need a high BAB/caster level progression prestige class to not suck rather badly. Fortunately there are quite a few out there.

[Jack Mann]

If you can, the militia and otherworldly feats make it easy to qualify for eldritch knight. Wiz5/Eldritch Knight 10/Abjurant Champion 5 is pretty good. 17 BAB, casts as a level 19 wizard. If you like, toss two levels of eldritch knight and take a level of fighter and a level of spellsword. You lose one level of casting, but you gain the ability to ignore 10% arcane spell failure, while foregoing the need to pick a region that offers militia. Pick up a set of thistledown padded mithral twilight full plate and you're set.

EDIT:

According to my Monster Manual, a githyanki that multiclasses is called a 'gish'. Is that where the term comes from?

Indeed. When the original Fiend Folio appeared, the githyanki was the first monster to appear that was both able to cast spells and fight. Gish was given as the githyanki term for a fighter/wizard with this capability.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, what you're looking for is commonly known as a 'Gish', the WotC optimization boards tend to have a lot of advice on how to make a somewhat difficult task easier. Here is a good start.

Personally, what I'd recommend is 2 wizard (or sorceror)/4 fighter/5 abjurant champion/9 Swiftblade from WotC's site (the new one) or Knight phantom from the same place. Knight phantom gives more spellcasting, swiftblade makes your buffs better, and abjurant champion (complete mage) is like crack for a gish, never give up levels of it.

That's one way to do it. I perfer to go a more spell-heavy setup...

Sorc4/Pal2/SpellSword1/AbChamp5...

Here's my reasoning. Spells > all. 9th level spells >> anything else. Resists = less chance of spells screwing you over. So, Sorc4 gives me 2nd level spells casting off of Charisma. Pal2 gives me all martial weapon and all armor proficencies... and Charisma to all saves. Since I'm already going to be jacking up my Cha for my casting, I might as well get it to my saves too. Now then, SpellSword gives me +1 BAB and +1 Caster Level *AND* 10% reduction on Arcane Spell Failure. Congratulations, you can now wear a non-magical Mithral Chain Shirt without Arcane Spell Failure. Ditch the Mage Armor spell, you won't need it anymore. Right, now we've got the prereqs down, let's slide into Abjurant Champion5 for full BAB, full spellcasting, and fun abilities.

At level 13, he has a BAB of 11 and a Caster Level of 11. Not too shabby. He's also got a sword and mithral chain mail (no sheild because he needs a hand free to cast spells, and can drop down a Shield spell whenever he wants to because of Abjurant Champion) and fairly obnoxious saves. From here, decide what you want to do. With 7 class levels to go before you hit epic, it's entirely possible to get 9th level spells if you go full spellcasting progression. And while you may not have the hit points of a dedicated tank, you still have all the crack goodness of magic at your beck and call, with the ability to laugh at just about anything the other side is going to try and throw at you.

[Aquillion]

Also, remember. No matter what build you use, you're going to suck for a few of those early levels when you have both mage and fighter (which you'll be terrible at) with no PRC to glue them together. Gish builds are best in a game where you expect to start at somewhat higher levels (at least high enough to start already inside your PRC), not at level 1. You still can manage it, but you won't be contributing so much early on.

...although Sorc / Pal seems like it would be a lot less painful, come to think of it, mainly since Paladins are so frontloaded and will give you abilities that'll partly carry you through those early levels just on account of your high Cha modifier.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, remember. No matter what build you use, you're going to suck for a few of those early levels when you have both mage and fighter (which you'll be terrible at) with no PRC to glue them together. Gish builds are best in a game where you expect to start at somewhat higher levels (at least high enough to start already inside your PRC), not at level 1. You still can manage it, but you won't be contributing so much early on.

...although Sorc / Pal seems like it would be a lot less painful, come to think of it, mainly since Paladins are so frontloaded and will give you abilities that'll partly carry you through those early levels just on account of your high Cha modifier.

Even Sorc/Pal is going to suck before level 10. Remember, Sorcerers are already behind Wizards a level in getting new spell levels. Now you're dropping it even further. At level 13, you are casting as an 11th level Sorcerer, which means 5th level spells. A pure Wizard/full spellcasting PrC build is caster level 13 and can cast 7th level spells. While the Gish can have Teleport, the Wizard has Teleport, Greater. While the Gish can have Solid Fog, the Wizard has Acid Fog. The Wizard also has Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Greater, Lesser Wish and Contingency. Of course, by level 20, this balances back out where both are casting 9th level spells (although the Gish only gets one, so he has to choose wisely).

[Saph]

Sorc/Pal doesn't necessarily suck.

My favoured build (which works from lower levels) is Pal 2/Battle Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Battle Sorcerer 8.

Over the 20 levels, you lose only 3 points of BAB and 13 HP compared to a straight-classed Paladin. You're also only one spell level behind a straight-classed Sorcerer. You can cast in light armour to begin with, and substitute mage armour once you get a couple of Abjurant Champion levels. You're never going to have quite the offensive power as a straight caster or fighter, but you can be very tough. The character I designed, at level 10, could get an AC of 40 or so with one round's preparation, and had saving throws in the 10-12 region. With Arcane Strike and Wraithstrike, attack power didn't suck either.

The key is to focus on what you're good at - mainly, using all those great arcane defensive spells that are normally wasted on a wizard because she never gets into melee in the first place.

Or you could do it the easy way, and just play a Duskblade for all 20 levels. That works, too.

- Saph

[Tengu]

What are Abjurant Champion's prerequesites?

[Saph]

Proficiency with a martial weapon, 1st-level arcane abjuration magic, Combat Casting, and BAB +5. The last one is the hard one, but it's worth it for the benefits you get.

- Saph

[yango]

Sorc/Pal doesn't necessarily suck.
You can cast in light armour to begin with, and substitute mage armour once you get a couple of Abjurant Champion levels.

IIRC Wizard's has acknowledged that Mage Armor does not work with Abjurant Armor, and that entry is a typo.

There is a feat in Complete Arcane that would let you cast in medium armor though.

[The Mormegil]

I currently play a gish at ECL 18. High, true, but anyway.

This one is a golden dwarf Fighter 2/Battle Sorceror 4/Abjurant Champion 5/ Dwarf Defensor 1/Eldritch Knight 5/Spellsword 1.

Although it has taken one level in Dwarf Defensor for flavor and has 2 levels in warrior for nothing (Battle Sorceror +3 could have been better), it outranks the main fighter in pure strength. I was able to hit the Leviathan for 535 damage in a single round while he was having troubles inside his mouth... Why?

I have a better AC: defensive extended quickened buffs can help.
I have more hp, even though that is because of my being a dwarf defensor with a pair of Improved Toughness...
I deal more damages thanks to: Power Attack (granted via Bite of the Weretiger) at -17 for a grand total of +34 on a two-wielded weapon (Somatic Weaponry to cast); Burning Sword (SC), Energy Aura (SC) etc. to gain a, say, +5d6+1d8 to damages etc. etc.
I have more attacks thanks to Haste + Slashing Flurry (PHBII, feat).
I hit more times than he does thanks to Wraithstrike OR Distract Assailor, depending on the enemy (i.e. no sense on making a touch attack on a monk, better taking him flat-footed), even with that -22 on attack rolls due to feats...
I never die (quite true) since I can cast Ironguard (the most !!!!! spell for gishes, SC) and Indomitability (SC) and Contingency.
I EVEN HAVE MORE FEATS: Heroics (SC) explain why.

Otherwise, you can opt for my ONE-SHOT GISH:
Basically, one melee attack to blow-up an enemy. Maybe a little houserule needed for this, I'm not pretty sure you can use it, but who knows.

Duskblade 3/Monk (Decisive Blow monk, PHBII) 1/Psychic Warrior 2/Abjurant Champion 2/Spellsword 10/Abjurant Champion +2
OR
Duskblade 3/Monk (Decisive Blow monk, PHBII) 1/Psychic Warrior 1/Swordsage 1/Abjurant Champion 2/Spellsword 4/Abjurant Champion +2/Jade Phoenix Mage 5/Abjurant champion +1

It is really simple: you channel, you make a decisive blow, you kill.
The rest is more or less arbitrary.
Psychic Warrior lets you have hurry, or whatever it's called, the psionic power that grants a free move action (used to channel).
Abjurant Champion's Arcane Boost is nice for having a few extra damages.
Jade Phoenix Mage gets Arcane Wrath at level 1 plus a few manouvres that are alway useful (especially boosts like Burning Blade and so on).


Enjoy your game!
>The Mormegil

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What is everyone's obsession with battle sorcerer? It has 'suck' written all over it. You're not going to be in it long enough to get the benifit of higher BAB and you loose spells known.

Another interesting build, clearly NOT an optimized Gish, is 2monk/sorc/Pal2/abchamp5/et al...

You loose two more spell levels. That hurts. But you get Evasion and +3 to all saves. That's good. Plus you can do this, and use the improved mage armor spell (Abjuration this time, I forgot what it was called, in spell compendium I think) and Carmindine Monk feat to get Cha to all saves, Cha to AC (on top of something like a +13 armor bonus from the armor spell with AbChamp5), Cha to cast with...

[Zincorium]

What is everyone's obsession with battle sorcerer? It has 'suck' written all over it. You're not going to be in it long enough to get the benifit of higher BAB and you loose spells known.

Another interesting build, clearly NOT an optimized Gish, is 2monk/sorc/Pal2/abchamp5/et al...

You loose two more spell levels. That hurts. But you get Evasion and +3 to all saves. That's good. Plus you can do this, and use the improved mage armor spell (Abjuration this time, I forgot what it was called, in spell compendium I think) and Carmindine Monk feat to get Cha to all saves, Cha to AC (on top of something like a +13 armor bonus from the armor spell with AbChamp5), Cha to cast with...

1. Carmendine monk gives you the bonus based off of intelligence. Ascetic Mage, however, bases it off of charisma. Note that Ascetic mage also applies to the swordsage class feature.

2. You don't qualify for abjurant champion without taking another level of monk or paladin, due to the BAB requirement. Spellsword is doable, however.

3. Battle sorcerors can cast in light armor without penalty. Battle caster improves this by one category. Hello mithril full plate with no arcane spell failure chance. Note that Knight Phantom does this a bit later on but is a damn good prc in it's own right, blows eldritch knight out of the water. And it's available free on WotC's site.

[Logic]

My build is such.

1 Fighter
8 Wizard
10 Eldritch Knith
1 Spellsword

The wizard levels can be substituted for any prestige class that you can qualify for, and only if you take an even number of levels for it.

[Saph]

What is everyone's obsession with battle sorcerer? It has 'suck' written all over it. You're not going to be in it long enough to get the benifit of higher BAB and you loose spells known.

Higher BAB. D8 hit die. Cast in light armour. In exchange, you lose one spell a day per level (like a sorcerer doesn't have enough) and one spell known per level. That does hurt, but the extra survivability is worth it.

Starting with Sor4 means your HP is going to be frankly terrible, preventing you from getting into heavy melee combat until, well, ever (unless you're starting at 10th level or something). Kind of defeats the point of a gish.

- Saph

[nooblade]

I'd like to see a Swashbuckler/Wizard/Duelist/Bladesinger, but that might be a little too complicated.

[Crow]

I run a Fighter1/Sorcerer6/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight7. 17 BAB, 18CL.

Can somebody point me (link) to the Swiftblade and Knight Phantom? I've never heard of those ones.

[Zincorium]

I run a Fighter1/Sorcerer6/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight7. 17 BAB, 18CL.

Can somebody point me (link) to the Swiftblade and Knight Phantom? I've never heard of those ones.

Swiftblade and Knight Phantom for you.

Both are very good, which helps make up for the fact that Gishes are inherently behind the power curves. Swiftblade actually started off as a terrible prc that no one wanted to use, and WotC actually listened to the optimization forums and did a rebuild of it.

[Dr. Weasel]

Battle Sorcerer is an excellent gish on its own, but if you want to take any prestige classes it becomes weaker than a straight caster would be. Also, despite the 'canned' feel of the Duskblade class it is just about the best gish possible.

If you want something more elaborate than either of those, Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4 or Fighter 2/Wizard 4 leading into Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 7 would be one of your best bets.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Higher BAB. D8 hit die. Cast in light armour. In exchange, you lose one spell a day per level (like a sorcerer doesn't have enough) and one spell known per level. That does hurt, but the extra survivability is worth it.

Starting with Sor4 means your HP is going to be frankly terrible, preventing you from getting into heavy melee combat until, well, ever (unless you're starting at 10th level or something). Kind of defeats the point of a gish.

- Saph

Casting in light armor can be obtained from Knight Phantom at 1st level. Change in hit die isn't too big since early on, he's not going to want to mix it up in melee anyways. In exchange, you loose one spell known per level. Ouch. That's a real killer. If you want such a limited spell selection, go play a Warmage.

How about this, then... start off with Pal2 then Sorc4, then go on from there to SS/Abchamp/KnightPhantom.

With Pal2 starting off, you've got decent D10 hit dice to begin with, then start working up the magic with Sorcerer, then go on to progress in both.

[MeklorIlavator]

If you take a fighter level in a gish build, I would suggest that you take the variant fighter from the Complete Mage, as you lose medium and heavy armor prof, but gain the ability to cast in light armor, or medium if you take Battle Caster.

[Zincorium]

Casting in light armor can be obtained from Knight Phantom at 1st level. Change in hit die isn't too big since early on, he's not going to want to mix it up in melee anyways. In exchange, you loose one spell known per level. Ouch. That's a real killer. If you want such a limited spell selection, go play a Warmage.

Knight phantom isn't exactly available everywhere, it requires the DM be willing to change the fluff and approve the class mechanically. "Your mileage may vary" is definitely in effect here.

Secondly, warmages suck not because of the number of spells they know, but because of the type of spells they know. Gishes are better off with a few good spells that they can buff with before combat rather than trying for the variety of save-or-suck spells of a normal caster.

How about this, then... start off with Pal2 then Sorc4, then go on from there to SS/Abchamp/KnightPhantom.

Which works well, but that's not really the point. There are lots of gish builds that work well.

With Pal2 starting off, you've got decent D10 hit dice to begin with, then start working up the magic with Sorcerer, then go on to progress in both.

With Pal 1/battle sorceror 4 you begin spellsword, and all other Prcs, a level earlier, and wind up a caster level ahead. And while there is a loss of spells known per level, it's still a minimum of 1 spell known per level. You're ahead on higher level spells, and if you look closely, with one spellcaster level ahead for the entire 20 levels, there's no net loss of spells until you reach the maximum of 5 per.

And you are one BAB ahead (which is another effective caster level with AC). And you have more hit points, in case the D8 vs d4 thing escaped your attention. Yes, you lost the 2nd level paladin ability, but I'd have gone fighter anyway.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Knight phantom isn't exactly available everywhere, it requires the DM be willing to change the fluff and approve the class mechanically. "Your mileage may vary" is definitely in effect here.

Secondly, warmages suck not because of the number of spells they know, but because of the type of spells they know. Gishes are better off with a few good spells that they can buff with before combat rather than trying for the variety of save-or-suck spells of a normal caster.

There's 'knowing a few good spells' and 'not knowing enough spells to be worth anything'

With Pal 1/battle sorceror 4 you begin spellsword, and all other Prcs, a level earlier, and wind up a caster level ahead. And while there is a loss of spells known per level, it's still a minimum of 1 spell known per level. You're ahead on higher level spells, and if you look closely, with one spellcaster level ahead for the entire 20 levels, there's no net loss of spells until you reach the maximum of 5 per.

With Pal1, you don't get Cha to all saves, which is the whole point of the Pal/Sorc combo, otherwise I'd go with Wiz/Fighter and get even higher casting and BAB than a battle sorcerer could manage

And you are one BAB ahead (which is another effective caster level with AC). And you have more hit points, in case the D8 vs d4 thing escaped your attention. Yes, you lost the 2nd level paladin ability, but I'd have gone fighter anyway.

Then go fighter. But IMO Battle Sorcerer is hurt too badly by limited list of spells known to be effective.

[Crow]

The Battle Sorcerer's spell selection is what makes it bad. A gish is a fighter first and a caster second. Go for spells that enhance your fighting ability before you go for trying to be a blaster.

[Zincorium]

Then go fighter. But IMO Battle Sorcerer is hurt too badly by limited list of spells known to be effective.

But they aren't compared to what you proposed. The build I proposed knows exactly the same number of spells as the one you did, with two exceptions:

1. I lose a single 1st level spell when our builds reach 8th level, and so on. Guess what? They don't matter anymore. Neither does a 2nd level spell at level 12 (assuming knight phantom). And so on.

2. I get 2nd level spells a level before you. And 3rd, 4th, 5th and I think the pattern is sinking in.

If my build's spell selection sucks too badly to be played, and yours is worse, what does that say about your build?

[CASTLEMIKE]

Sorc/Pal doesn't necessarily suck.

My favoured build (which works from lower levels) is Pal 2/Battle Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Battle Sorcerer 8.

Over the 20 levels, you lose only 3 points of BAB and 13 HP compared to a straight-classed Paladin. You're also only one spell level behind a straight-classed Sorcerer. You can cast in light armour to begin with, and substitute mage armour once you get a couple of Abjurant Champion levels. You're never going to have quite the offensive power as a straight caster or fighter, but you can be very tough. The character I designed, at level 10, could get an AC of 40 or so with one round's preparation, and had saving throws in the 10-12 region. With Arcane Strike and Wraithstrike, attack power didn't suck either.

The key is to focus on what you're good at - mainly, using all those great arcane defensive spells that are normally wasted on a wizard because she never gets into melee in the first place.

Or you could do it the easy way, and just play a Duskblade for all 20 levels. That works, too.

- Saph

The Battle Sorcerer Variant basically upgrades poor class hit die D4 and Poor BAB to D8 and Good BAB with No ASF in Light Armor at the cost of spell casting.

I am not aware of any rule that the Variant only provides the benefit only to the base class HD and poor BAB as spell casting is penalized at all levels.

I don't understand the games where it wouldn't also apply to any standard D4, Poor BAB arcane PRCs.

A 8 level mix of Mage or the Arcane Order and Arch Mage would be good choices although better could be found.

[Dr. Weasel]

The Battle Sorcerer variant text doesn't say anywhere that 'all of a character's d4 hit dice are replaced with d8s' which means only the Sorcerer hit dice are modified. I think the same logic you're using can be applied to justify a Wizard9/Barbarian1/Loremaster10 gettting d12 hit dice and full base attack for all of its Loremaster levels. The game just doesn't work that way.

Also, with the BS nerfed spellcasting Archmage will never be a good option.

[MrNexx]

FWIW, the reason I think Warmages are not as fun as they could be is because they're weirdly limited. If I were redesigning them, I'd boost their BAB to 3/4 and their HD to a d8, and give them a few more melee damage spells (like Flame Blade); let them take advantage of being armored wizards, and give them some options for self-defense.